Cyprus-Forum.com

[antonis]

... T/Cs would be given minority rights...

I don't think anyone envisions a solution in which there is going to be suppression of one community from the other. This is wide off the mark.

[Greek Cypriot]

This is exactly the problem. G/Cs were promised all these years that all refugees would return, Turkish army would be out, T/Cs would be given minority rights, etc. and that's why it's so hard for some G/Cs to realize that no side is going to get all they want.

It is true that all those things were said by the politicians, but people are not stupid. They know that Cyprus can not have a perfect for them solution.

90% of people (both TC and GC) will vote what they think will benefit them personally. What will make their standard of living, their feeling of security, and their wellbeing in general better than what is now.

Sure, we all want peace. But please tell me: If Turkish Cypriots had in the north a good economy, a perfect democracy, and TRNC was recognized from every country, do you still think TC would go out by the thousands demanding peace and unity? They think, as most of us think: "How can I make my life better?" And I don't blame them at all.

But we think the same, and here is the problem!
Except from some (not all) refugees that will return, and some other refugees that will get money for the properties they lost, the rest of us will gain nothing.
We will not get richer, but maybe poorer.
We will not live in a more democratic country, probably a less democratic one.
Most of us feel that the issue security will close when we enter the EU.
Annan's plan leaves a lot of things not very clear. People do not like uncertainty. It also creates something that never excisted before, with lots of functional problems.

If people knew that we had to pass through all these just for a specific periot, then I am sure they would take the risk and vote for it. But such specific periot does not exist. And as you said we will not live forever.

We don't ask for more. But we can not accept less than what we have now(except if it is less only for a some time)

[metecyp]

I don't think anyone envisions a solution in which there is going to be suppression of one community from the other. This is wide off the mark. If functionality of the solution is what we want, everyone understands that is the basis of a functional solution.

I didn't say supression, I said giving minority rights to T/C, it's different. Besides I'm not so sure if everyone envisions political equality as you suggested. As an example, "Greek Cypriot" named person was telling me couple of days how there are so many minorities in EU countries and how these people are living minority rights, and they are happy, and they are not harmed so on. He was basically making the point that having minority rights is not something bad. Now, I'm not arguing that minority rights are bad, that's another issue. But whenever minority rights are concerned, there's no political equality at level of governance. Yes, there's equality at individual level, but that's all. I'm sure "Greek Cypriot" is not the only one who thinks that way in G/C community.

[metecyp]

Sure, we all want peace. But please tell me: If Turkish Cypriots had in the north a good economy, a perfect democracy, and TRNC was recognized from every country, do you still think TC would go out by the thousands demanding peace and unity? They think, as most of us think: "How can I make my life better?" And I don't blame them at all.

I agree that if T/Cs had a good economy, a perfect democracy and a recognized state, they wouldn't be so keen on peace and unity, I'm not going to deny this. Of course people want peace to make their lives better. Nobody wants something that will worsen his/her life.

Except from some (not all) refugees that will return, and some other refugees that will get money for the properties they lost, the rest of us will gain nothing. We will not get richer, but maybe poorer.

First of all, G/C side might get poorer (no so convinced about this) in the short run. But you have to think about the long run. As an example, a peaceful, united Cyprus will be a central tourist attraction. I know G/C side already attracts many tourists from Europe, but with a united Cyprus, we can attract even more tourists. There's no way that G/Cs will get poorer in a united Cyprus, it defies the logic. Your situation can only be better financially in a united Cyprus simply because there will be more resources.

We will not live in a more democratic country, probably a less democratic one.

I guess you consider democracy in Cyprus as G/C participation in politics and that's it. If you were so fond of democracy, you would be happy that T/Cs would finally (after 40 years) be part of decision process in Cyprus. Besides, it never crosses your mind that what you have right now (Republic of Cyprus without T/C participation) is *not* what you're supposed to have, it's something that you *borrowed* from T/Cs and now it's time to give it (share it) back.

We don't ask for more. But we can not accept less than what we have now(except if it is less only for a some time)

If your argument is valid, then it's legitimate for a T/C to say "Why should I leave my house and become refuge again? I'm not going to accept less than what I have now." Is T/C's argument valid? No, because he didn't own the house in the first place, correct? Well, how's your argument valid when you didn't own the "democratic" Republic of Cyprus on your own in the first place?

And a final note, when you refer to a solution, you mostly talk about economic benefits/losses. I think you should consider thinking about other more humane matters such as living in a multicultural environment, our children learning 3 languages etc. I think these are as important, if not more, than financial matters.

[Greek Cypriot]

If they convince GC that their well being will get better and their future will be brighter then you should have no doubt that the majority will vote for the plan. They will analize the plan several times from TV and radio. People are not stupid, they will recognize whats best for them and they will vote for it.
Personally I am not an econimist to anayize this matters. I just listen to what the experts say. Most of them say that things will not be very easy.
In any case by the time we will vote we will know more. They already started the research:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 6&cat_id=1

I have absolutely no problem with TC being part of the decision process. But what is proposed in Annan plan is very different from sharing the Republic of Cyprus.

And a final note, when you refer to a solution, you mostly talk about economic benefits/losses. I think you should consider thinking about other more humane matters such as living in a multicultural environment, our children learning 3 languages etc. I think these are as important, if not more, than financial matters.

I talk about the general well being of GC. Not only financial issues. Everything that can affect positively or negatively our life.

I want myself and my children to have a good life. The same I hope for you and your children. And from what I understood in here if it was me and you we would definitely come to a good honest agreement that would ensure the future for both of us.

[PEACE]

Personally I am not an econimist to anayize this matters. I just listen to what the experts say. Most of them say that things will not be very easy.

You have to listen all of them ! For example Vasiliu!

Alexis Galanos: The high cost of solution


2004-02-18 | Simerini | Νέαρχου Νεάρχου

Commenting on the repercussions on the Cyprus economy, after an eventual solution to the Cyprus issue, the president of the Economic Experts Council Alexis Galanos pointed out that the initial cost to be paid by our side would be quite high.

For that reason, we should insist on some issues at the negotiating table, he noted. Mr. Galanos considers that the definition of the role and the powers of the Central Bank is a major chapter. In the Central Bank of federal Cyprus, he pointed out, the views of the majority should prevail, since the Greek-Cypriot side will be the one to pay the greatest economic cost. As for the capitals expected to flow in from abroad as a result of the upcoming Cyprus settlement, Mr. Galanos underlined that we should be aware of who the donors are and of the amounts they are committed to give, before the conclusion of the talks. This is the only way that we will be in a position to know how to deal with this issue, he said. He also mentioned that all financial institutions operating today in the occupied territories and expected to join the wider economic activity of the island after an eventual solution should be subject to inspection.
On his part, EDI leader George Vassiliou said that the economic aspect of the Cyprus settlement is significant within the framework of smooth functionality not only of the federal state, but also of the two constituent states. George Vassiliou said that the reunification of Cyprus would be the outset of a new era of economic growth and progress. This is due to the fact that a greater sum than expected today will go back to the federations, so as to achieve balanced budgets in the federation and the constituent parties. Regarding the regime of the operation of the Central Bank, Mr. Vassiliou noted that Cyprus needs a Central Bank that will be dealing with the economic and monetary policy in both states.

Source Site : http://www.cyprusmedianet.com/EN/article/19148?

[PEACE]

Except from some (not all) refugees that will return, and some other refugees that will get money for the properties they lost, the rest of us will gain nothing.
We will not get richer, but maybe poorer.

To say " This solution is ok." you need money to get as individual?

some other refugees that will get money for the properties they lost, the rest of us will gain nothing.

What you mean here? They will get cos they used to have it before 1974 ! Some can return but others who can't will get compensation for that!

We don't ask for more. But we can not accept less than what we have now(except if it is less only for a some time)

What you have now that will be less in Greek Cypriot State?

I have absolutely no problem with TC being part of the decision process. But what is proposed in Annan plan is very different from sharing the Republic of Cyprus

Of course it should be different from RC! We see what RC brought !

[metecyp]

One of the misconceptions of "Greek Cypriot" is that he consider the current situation (Repubic of Cyprus with no T/C participation) as "normal". The fact that Republic of Cyprus has been basically a Greek Cypriot Republic is a "given" for him but actually quite contrary is true.

That's why he says "I'm not going to aceept less than what I have now" all the time but his argument is seriously flawed. What he has right now (internationally recognized Rep. of Cyprus with no T/C participation) is not what he is supposed to have! For whatever reason (I'm not arguing if T/Cs left the Republic or if they were fired from it) no T/Cs have been in the decision process. Therefore, I repeat again, what he refers as something that he owns, is not actually his. And it's hard for him to accept that now, and I don't blame him because he was told by politicians that what he owns is his for all these years, and now it's hard to share.

I see the exact flawed arguments in the north. Many T/Cs say "I'm not going to leave my home and become refuge again" but they didn't own the house in the first place! They were told by politicians again that what they have (houses of G/C refuges in this case) will be theirs forever. And now Annan plan says otherwise and it's hard for them to accept the realities.

Everybody will lose something in Annan plan, especially people who owned something that they were not supposed to. But in the long run, everybody will gain, there's no other way. After the transition period, there's no way that things will be worse in Cyprus, such claims are not logical.

[Greek Cypriot]

What he has right now (internationally recognized Rep. of Cyprus with no T/C participation) is not what he is supposed to have!

Maybe you can blame us for what happened in the 60s, and for many things you might be right.

However, the Republic of Cyprus is what both of us were supposed to have, not just me. This is why RC is internationally recognized, where what you have in the north is not. You can not blame me that I don't want to give up some of my basic democratic and human rights. And you, as a citizen of RC you can have all your rights and responsibilities if you want.

So don't confuse things. One thing is to say "Cyprus is for both TC and GC" something that I agree 1000%, and a totally different thing is that we have to accept whatever so you will accept to come back to take part in the decision process.

We will accept what we believe will create something functional that will not hurt our well beign.

[metecyp]

However, the Republic of Cyprus is what both of us were supposed to have, not just me. This is why RC is internationally recognized, where what you have in the north is not.

I know that. What I was trying to explain was the following. Right now, G/Cs control RC on their own, they can make any decision they want and it has been like this for the past 40 years (for whatever reason). And many G/Cs consider this situation as something that is right and when they see in Annan plan that they need to share power, it's hard for them to accept to share power after 40 years of having RC just for themselves. That was the impression I got from your posts.

Maybe I should have said "One of the things you claim to have (i.e. having RC on your own and making majority decisions with no regard to minority wishes) is not actually supposed to be just yours. Now, you can still claim that you have *other* things that you don't want to give up like basic democratic and human rights, as you would call it (I'm not convinced though), and you can base your argument on these.

So don't confuse things. One thing is to say "Cyprus is for both TC and GC" something that I agree 1000%, and a totally different thing is that we have to accept whatever so you will accept to come back to take part in the decision process.

Nobody is asking you to accept *whatever*. All we're asking is extra assurance that T/Cs will be part of decision process from now on, that's it, period. And I feel like it's only fair to ask for extra assurances after 40 years of exclusion from the decision process (again for whatever reason, I'm not arguing the reasons here)

We will accept what we believe will create something functional that will not hurt our well beign.

Fair. But I think it's time to start thinking about well-being of the whole island and its people. I'm not saying this just for you and your side, but for my side as well. I hope we'll reach to that level some day.