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Majority rule means war.(An article from 1964)

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:20 pm

insan wrote:
Insan, you open too many issues simultaneously my friend and one gets lost in trying to catch up with what to comment on and what not to.



Sorry about it compatriot Kifeas. Ok, let's start with "political equality" of two communities. In my opinion, the "political equality" as is envisaged in Annan Plan is a good thought and embraced by majority of TCs. However it is not adequate, in my opinion.

The "political equality" of two communities as is envisaged in Annan Plan should be granted for the permenant GC residents of TCCS as well. How?

Please follow the link to get detailed info about my suggestion.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... l+equality


Interesting Insan, however I need some time to study and understand it. I will surelly comment on it as soon as I digest it. First impression however, even as it was in Annan plan, is that it will be too costly. Who will be paying all these politicians on both sides? Remember we are only 820,000 (both communities.) Anyway I will get back to you anytime soon.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:14 pm

Kifeas
An owed reply to viewpoint

I find your previous contribution worthless for a reply.
However, I feel I should comment on one thing.

Thanks god you do not represent the views of the majority of Turkish Cypriots but only those of a pathetic minority. (I assume you are a TC.)


I find your contributions long winded and full of s**t, get down to basics stop hiding behind vocabulary which at the end of the day adds up to absolutely nothing.
Just analyze this I was a YES voter for all my sins, the GC NO has saved me from making the biggest mistake of my life, thankyou. Do you really feel I am part of a pathetic minority think again, many TCs have changed opinions of true GCs intentions and the number increases as the administration in the south maintains its current stance.
For your information I am a TC.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:03 pm

So Insan, you are proposing 6 chambers all together. Three legislative and 3 houses of representatives. Two in the TCCS, 2 in the GCCS and 2 at the federal level.
Is that correct?

My comments are the following:

1. It becomes too complicated and more importantly very expensive for a small country like Cyprus to have 6 chambers. If one includes the governments (governor and ministers) of each constituent state and also the governing body of the federal state, if then we add up the civil servants of the governments in each constituent sate and those of the federal state, we will have so many civil servants and politicians (ministers and MPs) that half the population will be working to pay the salaries of the other half which will be involved in politics and in civil service. This will be particularly more evident in the case of the TC community, which is the smallest.

2. You are devising this idea in order to pacify the GC communities concern for grading political equality at the federal level to the TC and if I understand correctly you are suggesting a balancing out alternative by granting political equality to GC within the TCCS.

Before I continue I would like to check whether I got you correctly in what you’re proposing.
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Postby insan » Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:17 pm

Before I continue I would like to check whether I got you correctly in what you’re proposing.



You got it mate. :D

I agree with you that it is very expensive but not complicated if everyone in that political structure knows his/her duties and responsibilities; it would work perfectly, I believe.

Ok. Would you like to amend my suggestion or put forth your suggestion for consideration?
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:43 pm

Compatriot and friend Insan,
I agree with you that nothing is complicated if it is logical and well defined.

My approach is different and I hope I will manage to convince you in that. It is based on the axiom that we should try to avoid, as much as possible, the division of people (Cypriot citizens in this case) along lines of ethnical origin and /or religion and /or language. Your approach is based on this divisive basis, on an almost absolute degree. In other words, TCypriots registering on separate voting lists and GCs registering on other voting lists, both on the constituent state level and on the federal level.

Why we should try to avoid it as much as possible:
1. As a left-winger that you are and so do I, you should be aware that one of the fundamental principles of any leftist ideology (Marxist, socialist, social democratic and even communist) is that people must not be divided on the basis of ethnicity but on the basis of social and economic interests. Marxist ideology suggests a political struggle on the basis of social classes, irrespective of ethnic background. The Greek Cypriot working class has more common interests with the Turkish Cypriot working class rather than with the conservative capitalist GC class, and vise versa. In a nutshell, the political debate should be based upon ideological differences instead of ethnical or religious differences. Only fascist ideologies attempt to divide people along ethnic lines and the reason is to disillusion them from their real social and economical problems and concerns. It is for this reason that all fascist ideologies promote religious fanaticism, chauvinism and hatred towards other nations. The fascist (extreme right wing) ideologies are vertical (along ethnic lines,) the leftist ideologies are lateral or horizontal (along social and economic interests irrespective of ethnic origins.)

2. If we institutionalize the separation of the people of Cyprus along ethnic origin lines, we will perpetuate the mistrust and resentment of one community towards the other, and we will never be able to promote a common Cypriot identity. Part of the problems that we faced in the past is attributed to the chauvinist circles in each community (Enosis with Greece and Taksim,) but also another part is attributed to this very same institutionalized separation of the two communities that enhanced the mistrust and resentment of one to the other and rented them pray to these chauvinist circles.

3. In Cyprus we do not have only Greek and Turkish or Ottoman and Hellenic people. Being members of the EU, we will also have (already we have) a considerable number of other European origin residents, which can rightfully claim the status of citizenship whenever they choose and upon fulfillment of the relevant criteria. How and under which of the two ethnic groups we are going to classify them? The definition that was offered in the Anan plan as to what constitutes the members of each grouping (TC and GC,) in terms of exercising their political rights on the Federal upper house level, is that irrespective of place of residence (south or north,) TCs (those of Turkish ethnic origin and Turkish maternal language) vote only for the TC senators and GCs (those of Greek ethnic origin and Greek maternal language) vote only for the GC senators. That simply means that anyone (Cypriot or to be Cypriot) who doesn’t belong to any of the above clearly defined groups (thanks god they didn’t ask also for a DNA test,) cannot be entitle to political rights on the Federal level. A German or British origin Cypriot and E.U. citizen, whether he lives in the south or in the north, cannot elect or be elected in the senate because he has no Greek or Turkish ethnic origin. That is simply unacceptable by European Union norms and by any human rights principle.

4. The European Union constitution clearly prohibits discrimination towards any E.U. citizen on the basis of ethnicity. Part II: Charter of Fundamental Rights, article II-81, page 10 (http://europa.eu.int/constitution/print_en.htm). Further more, it is accepted by all E.U. members that the E.U. constitution or convention super seats the national constitution, and no provision of the latest can be in conflict with the E.U. constitution.

I hope I have offered enough food for thought as to why we should try to avoid this division along lines of ethnical origin. I understand the Turkish Cypriot concerns on this issue. You may feel that this is an indirect way for Greek Cypriots to gain full control of the political ruling and thus gradually dominate and assimilate the Turkish Cypriots in what you fear will become a Hellenisted island. I am willing and more than happy to discuss any and all possible alternative ways, approaches and measures that we can take in order to safeguard that such a thing never happens and that your ethnic, cultural, language and religious identity is protected indefinitely, within the parameters of the E.U. and it’s constitutional provisions.

As for the model of government that we should introduce, I have some suggestions, but I would like first to have your reaction and feedback to all the above. I am not ruling out political equality as such, as long as it is based on a constituent state level (like all other federations in the world) and not on a community or ethnic level. Further more, political equality should not be interpreted to mean an absolute numerical equality. In other words, the Cypriot citizens of one constituent state with 650,000 population should not be expected to share on a 50:50 basis the political, administrative and civil service posts of the federal state with the Cypriot Citizens of the other CS with 150,000 population. This should be more or less proportional to the corresponding size of each CS.
Last edited by Kifeas on Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:46 pm

Dear compatriot and friend Kifeas,

I'm not agree with most of your opinions, views and counter arguments. What are the chances to establish such a political structure based on leftist ideology while the ideology, political structure and social structure of the current state with its people mainly based and focused upon rightist ideaology. There isn't just a single left wing party in whole Europe that is not against the EU except Akel which was against the EU memebership of Cyprus but later the rightist political powers of South Cyprus managed to convince them to support the EU membership of Cyprus, for the sake of "National Cause".

Nevetheless, I wonder how you will create a socialist system in a country where right wingers are overwhelming majority in a much much larger capitalist union.


Regards.
Last edited by insan on Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:22 pm

Welcome to the forum Kifeas.

On the matter of the Cypriot people: it is very clear in the 1960 constitution that it consists of 2 communities. The communities don't have self determination right, only the Cypriot people as a whole with the consent of both communities do have such right.

Also notice that all the efforts of the GCs to be recognised as the people of Cyprus before 1960 failed at the UN. So neither before nor after 1960 the demands for Enosis or Taksim were ever legal.

PS.I am a GC
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:38 pm

Compatriot and friend Insan,
I agree with you that nothing is complicated if it is logical and well defined.

My approach is different and I hope I will manage to convince you in that. It is based on the axiom that we should try to avoid, as much as possible, the division of people (Cypriot citizens in this case) along lines of ethnical origin and /or religion and /or language. Your approach is based on this divisive basis, on an almost absolute degree. In other words, TCypriots registering on separate voting lists and GCs registering on other voting lists, both on the constituent state level and on the federal level.



Ok. compatriot and friend Kifeas;

By taking into consideration the well known circumstances and retrospection of two communities; I think this is the most feasible starting point for two communities to give them a chance to evolve this building into whatever they wish. We cannot and should not deny or ignore the facts and factors that caused seperation of two communities throughout their common history.

Why we should try to avoid it as much as possible:
1. As a left-winger that you are and so do I, you should be aware that one of the fundamental principles of any leftist ideology (Marxist, socialist, social democratic and even communist) is that people must not be divided on the basis of ethnicity but on the basis of social and economic interests. Marxist ideology suggests a political struggle on the basis of social classes, irrespective of ethnic background. The Greek Cypriot working class has more common interests with the Turkish Cypriot working class rather than with the conservative capitalist GC class, and vise versa. In a nutshell, the political debate should be based upon ideological differences instead of ethnical or religious differences. Only fascist ideologies attempt to divide people along ethnic lines and the reason is to disillusion them from their real social and economical problems and concerns. It is for this reason that all fascist ideologies promote religious fanaticism, chauvinism and hatred towards other nations. The fascist (extreme right wing) ideologies are vertical (along ethnic lines,) the leftist ideologies are lateral or horizontal (along social and economic interests irrespective of ethnic origins.)


Ok. Neither a federation nor confederation is an obstacle in front of working classes to build a strong trade union against jingoists, capitalists, human rights violations, etc.. Even there can be several trade unions united under a Federation of Trade Unionists or Confederation of Trade Unionists. It's up to the trade unions...


2. If we institutionalize the separation of the people of Cyprus along ethnic origin lines, we will perpetuate the mistrust and resentment of one community towards the other, and we will never be able to promote a common Cypriot identity.


We are not seperating the people of Cyprus we are trying to unite already seperated people of Cyprus with the most feasible and rational methods.


Part of the problems that we faced in the past is attributed to the chauvinist circles in each community (Enosis with Greece and Taksim,)


Big part of the problems we faced in the past, arosed from these groups but it is a fact that Taksim appeared as a reaction and retaliation to Enosis. Neither federation nor confederation even being two seperate neighbouring countries are obstacles to develop a common struggle against cheuvenists, jingoists and so-called nationalists(The ones who abuse nationalistic sentiments of people for their self-interests) of both sides


but also another part is attributed to this very same institutionalized separation of the two communities that enhanced the mistrust and resentment of one to the other and rented them pray to these chauvinist circles.


Majority of two communities had already been seperated by some outsiders(Mainly Hellenic) with "Megali Idea", Christian vs Muslim, Turks vs Greeks... Everything follwed this seperation; based upon the structure already has been created by others and internal social dynamics of two communities.


3. In Cyprus we do not have only Greek and Turkish or Ottoman and Hellenic people. Being members of the EU, we will also have (already we have) a considerable number of other European origin residents, which can rightfully claim the status of citizenship whenever they choose and upon fulfillment of the relevant criteria. How and under which of the two ethnic groups we are going to classify them? The definition that was offered in the Anan plan as to what constitutes the members of each grouping (TC and GC,) in terms of exercising their political rights on the Federal upper house level, is that irrespective of place of residence (south or north,) TCs (those of Turkish ethnic origin and Turkish maternal language) vote only for the TC senators and GCs (those of Greek ethnic origin and Greek maternal language) vote only for the GC senators. That simply means that anyone (Cypriot or to be Cypriot) who doesn’t belong to any of the above clearly defined groups (thanks god they didn’t ask also for a DNA test,) cannot be entitle to political rights on the Federal level. A German or British origin Cypriot and E.U. citizen, whether he lives in the south or in the north, cannot elect or be elected in the senate because he has no Greek or Turkish ethnic origin. That is simply unacceptable by European Union norms and by any human rights principle.4. The European Union constitution clearly prohibits discrimination towards any E.U. citizen on the basis of ethnicity. Part II: Charter of Fundamental Rights, article II-81, page 10 (http://europa.eu.int/constitution/print_en.htm). Further more, it is accepted by all E.U. members that the E.U. constitution or convention super seats the national constitution, and no provision of the latest can be in conflict with the E.U. constitution.



I'm aware of this. Those foreign citizens of United Cyprus could line-up any of the existing political parties according to the Constituent State they have been a permenant resident. EU constitution and laws are not against any derogations which is based upon valid concerns and protection of the interests of the indigenous people of such a small and bi-communal country Cyprus.



Further more, political equality should not be interpreted to mean an absolute numerical equality. In other words, the Cypriot citizens of one constituent state with 650,000 population should not be expected to share on a 50:50 basis the political, administrative and civil service posts of the federal state with the Cypriot Citizens of the other CS with 150,000 population. This should be more or less proportional to the corresponding size of each CS.


The "political equality" we are talking about is the one related with the power sharing in Senate not sharing all administrative and civil service posts of the federal state on a 50:50 basis.


I hope I have offered enough food for thought as to why we should try to avoid this division along lines of ethnical origin. I understand the Turkish Cypriot concerns on this issue. You may feel that this is an indirect way for Greek Cypriots to gain full control of the political ruling and thus gradually dominate and assimilate the Turkish Cypriots in what you fear will become a Hellenisted island. I am willing and more than happy to discuss any and all possible alternative ways, approaches and measures that we can take in order to safeguard that such a thing never happens and that your ethnic, cultural, language and religious identity is protected indefinitely, within the parameters of the E.U. and it’s constitutional provisions.

As for the model of government that we should introduce, I have some suggestions, but I would like first to have your reaction and feedback to all the above. I am not ruling out political equality as such, as long as it is based on a constituent state level (like all other federations in the world) and not on a community or ethnic level.




As far as I've understood, you are supporter of a Greek Cypriot state with a TC minority. It's unacceptable my friend.
Last edited by insan on Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:00 pm

Kifeas.
Further more, political equality should not be interpreted to mean an absolute numerical equality. In other words, the Cypriot citizens of one constituent state with 650,000 population should not be expected to share on a 50:50 basis the political, administrative and civil service posts of the federal state with the Cypriot Citizens of the other CS with 150,000 population. This should be more or less proportional to the corresponding size of each CS.


Insan
As far as I've understood, you are supporter of a Greek Cypriot state with a TC minority. It's unacceptable my friend.


Insan this is the opinion of the majority of GCs, Im certain it doesnt really suprise you. Using long sentences and decorating it with history and far left views doesnt conceal the fact that we will always be viewed as a minority in a GC controlled island, sad but true. So faced with this reality do you feel we can still negotiate a solution to reunite the island knowing how you are viewed and that political equlity for TCs is not an issue that can be tollerated by the majority of GCs.
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:00 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Kifeas.
Further more, political equality should not be interpreted to mean an absolute numerical equality. In other words, the Cypriot citizens of one constituent state with 650,000 population should not be expected to share on a 50:50 basis the political, administrative and civil service posts of the federal state with the Cypriot Citizens of the other CS with 150,000 population. This should be more or less proportional to the corresponding size of each CS.


Insan
As far as I've understood, you are supporter of a Greek Cypriot state with a TC minority. It's unacceptable my friend.


Insan this is the opinion of the majority of GCs, Im certain it doesnt really suprise you. Using long sentences and decorating it with history and far left views doesnt conceal the fact that we will always be viewed as a minority in a GC controlled island, sad but true. So faced with this reality do you feel we can still negotiate a solution to reunite the island knowing how you are viewed and that political equlity for TCs is not an issue that can be tollerated by the majority of GCs.



Viewpoint, I read nothing related with far left in Kifeas' post. We are sharing our opinions and puting forth our arguments for consideration. That's all. Everyone is free to believe and struggle for whatever he/she wants.
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