Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

First of all I wish to apologise to friend Insan for the harsh and perhaps unjust criticism in a previous message. It seems though that friend Insan has a habit and a passion to constantly search for comments by GC and Greek politicians in which there is a reference to a so called Hellenic "national cause," -which in most cases are made for internal consumption, in order to raise a point as to the true but hidden intentions of GC. Insan, there is no such a thing as a hidden agenda coded under the term national cause. If there was, I would have been among the first to be aware of it. The reference to a national cause of Hellenism, nowadays, should be treated as a philological or a rhetorical one, rather than a literal. When there are remarks to a so called national cause in relation to Cyprus, these are mainly referring or related to the need to obstruct and block the mainland Turkish national cause and that of their puppets in Cyprus, which we view to be that of dividing Cyprus and having permanent military control over it, either through the present occupation (according to GCs) or thought a political settlement in which the independence and sovereignty of Cypriots (GCs and TCs) will be limited to that of a protectorate state which will only play the role of the bucket carrier to the megalomaniac aspirations of Turkish deep state politics and /or those of the Anglo-American imperialists in the region. There is no such a national cause, as you perhaps imagine, which aspires the reincarnation of the so called "Megali idea" or the so called hellenisation of the island. Yes there is some rhetoric and a lot garbology but no evidence and more importantly, no secret agenda. And you know this very well! What about the comments made by Mr. Tayip Erdogan the other day that “whatever land is captured with blood cannot be returned back.” Should I also conclude that the Turks real intention is to hold on Cyprus militarily forever? Is this the Turkish national cause? I decided not to take them literary, as I am sure they were made for internal consumption. Am I making a mistake?

Furthermore, when one talks about Hellenic ideals today and the need to enhance them, simply refers to the classical Greek ideals. Which are they? You also know them very well! All the western political, scientific and cultural thought (American and European,) claim to be based upon them. They are universal and modern Greeks are no more the owners of them than any other western or even global nation is. Therefore I do no think you should be irritated when hearing this term, especially if you are one (I hope) of the majority of Turkish Cypriots who also believe and support the membership of Cyprus (and Turkey's accession candidacy,) in the EU. Unless you prefer to hear references to the "Hellenic ideals" from all the rest of the world, except from the mouth of Greeks or GCypriots. Even the first draft of the EU constitution had made reference to them.

You also seem to resent the fact that there are cultural, educational and political ties between Greece and that portion of Cypriots who possess a Hellenic background (i.e. GCs.) Fortunately or unfortunately this is an inevitable consequence of the fact that these two entities share the same or similar linguistic, cultural and religious elements. It is no different than that of similar ties that British and Americans or Australians and British or Spanish and Latin Americans or Turks and Turkish Cypriots have. I do not a see conflict between having those ties and still maintaining ones citizenship or state autonomy. The Anglo-Saxon American is no less an American because he shares cultural commonalities with the British Anglo-Saxon and vice versa. I do not resent your wish to have similar ties with the people of Turkey or the cooperation of Cyprus with Turkey on that level too. To the contrary, I am interested in knowing more about these ties and perhaps use or benefit from any or all those elements of these ties that I find positive. In fact, there are things in the Turkish Cypriot sub-culture that I envy and I would like them to be adopted in the Greek Cypriot sub-culture. For example you have a better family cohesiveness, you are more polite in your intra-family and intra-communal dealings and have an even higher drive for education than GCs have.

[Kifeas]

An owed reply to viewpoint

I find your previous contribution worthless for a reply.
However, I feel I should comment on one thing.

Thanks god you do not represent the views of the majority of Turkish Cypriots but only those of a pathetic minority. (I assume you are a TC.)

[Kifeas]

Erolz, thanks for the welcoming to this forum.
I must admit you raised a number of valid points in your previous posting.

However, I will start from those I do not agree with.
Certainly we do not live in an ideal world. Certainly the past experiences should not be forgotten and should also be taken into consideration. They should however serve as an example and not the vehicle to drive us to the future. Many important things are different today, which did not exist in the past. First of all the fact that Cypriots today are far more educated and experienced, both as social and as political beings. In those days you could hardly find any university graduates in both communities. Today at least 50% of the people under 50 y.o. possess higher education. We are not any longer the immature, uninformed, misinformed and fanaticised people of the 1950's and 60's. In those days there were no mature political and civil society institutions and no prior experience for running our public affairs. We had just emerged from a colonial rule under which very little say we had and even less experience to run a country on our own. The attachments to the so-called motherlands were strong and inevitable because we didn't know how to proceed on our own and where to rely for assistance or advise or protection (being a small and young country.)
Secondly, the global environment of those times was totally unfavourable. Now Cyprus is a member of the EU. That by itself, although not entirely sufficient, should serve and will serve as a framework for more freedom, independence and security in the running of our affairs and to respect each other’s sensitivities.

Erolz, I will expand on your valuable and well balanced comments as soon as possible, in my next posting as I have to unfortunately do some work now.

[insan]

Kifeas,

Could you put forward your critisisms concerning the recent political stance of both side's leadership and representatives? In your opinion what are their rights and wrongs? We elect them to represent and work for us. Do they really work for us or they work as EU, Turkey, Greece, US, pro-western clients? Or do they think that the interests of Cypriots lay within this alliance. If so, what is the most feasible and rational structure of this alliance? What is this Christian Democrat alliance in "modern EU"? What is this Church origin Greek Orthodox hatred towards Turks and muslims? What are these new Byzantiım-Konstantinopolis stories? Seperatist- Kurds demand an independent Kurdistan in middle-east including the soil of Turkey. Some political groups in Hellenic world still claim and consider Assia Minor a part of Hellenic Kingdom. Pontian Greeks still dream of returning their ancestral lands in Black Sea region and establish the Pontus Greek State. Diaspora Armenians and some nationalist Armenian groups still claim and exert great effort to expand its territory to North Eastern Turkey.

All GC refugees want to return to their ancestral lands and they don't care how this massive relocation will affect the social structure, economical life, psychological mood and security of TC community.

GC leadership and their crew want "majority rule" not because of they respect democrasy but to build a stronger tie with western world for the benefits and political status of Hellenic Ruling Elite.

Perhaps Turkish leadership and their crew too, want "political equality" not because of safe-gurading TCs political and related rights but to build a stronger tie with western world for the benefits and political status of Turkish Ruling Elite. However in the end, people of Cyprus make its choice and go vote any of these political parties in direction with his/her interests or his/her group interests.

Thus mentality of vast majority of Cypriots is not different than their representatives.

Where's the intelligentsia of Cyprus? Either their mouths were silenced by the despots of Cyprus or they became the prisoners of cliches.

[Saint Jimmy]

Well, it seems to me that we have yet another member who is able to discuss matters with a cool head and reasonable arguments, while actually taking the time to read his interlocutor's comments, as well! I would like to express my respect for this stance and welcome Kifeas in here.
Kifeas, Insan, Cannedmoose, Alex, Erol, Turkcyp, Brother, and a few others who I hope will forgive me for forgetting them, I hereby express my respect for your attitudes. (not necessarily your views! )

[insan]

Well, it seems to me that we have yet another member who is able to discuss matters with a cool head and reasonable arguments, while actually taking the time to read his interlocutor's comments, as well! I would like to express my respect for this stance and welcome Kifeas in here.
Kifeas, Insan, Cannedmoose, Alex, Erol, Turkcyp, Brother, and a few others who I hope will forgive me for forgetting them, I hereby express my respect for your attitudes. (not necessarily your views! )

Sainnt Jimmy, I feel your love and respect in my heart and soul even if you have never refered about it directly.

[Kifeas]

Insan, you open too many issues simultaneously my friend and one gets lost in trying to catch up with what to comment on and what not to.

Could you put forward your critisisms concerning the recent political stance of both side's leadership and representatives? In your opinion what are their rights and wrongs? We elect them to represent and work for us. Do they really work for us or they work as EU, Turkey, Greece, US, pro-western clients?

What exactly do you have in mind? It sounds too general to comment on. Certainly the climate between the two sides (TC and GC) ought to be better. Both sides are responsible for this. I do not necessarily think that they work for the interests of others more than they do for the interests of their communities. At least that’s what they believe they are doing. Perhaps they are trying to exploit the fact that others have interests and they seek to gain advantage from them to their own interests.

What is this Christian Democrat alliance in "modern EU"? What is this Church origin Greek Orthodox hatred towards Turks and muslims? What are these new Byzantiım-Konstantinopolis stories? Seperatist- Kurds demand an independent Kurdistan in middle-east including the soil of Turkey. Some political groups in Hellenic world still claim and consider Assia Minor a part of Hellenic Kingdom. Pontian Greeks still dream of returning their ancestral lands in Black Sea region and establish the Pontus Greek State. Diaspora Armenians and some nationalist Armenian groups still claim and exert great effort to expand its territory to North Eastern Turkey.

Obviously you read a lot. A friendly suggestion though would be to do some more refined filtering of what you read. I also read, maybe not as much as you do, but I am not aware of any universal conspiracy or more specifically on the part of the Christian or Hellenic world to destroy Turkey. Unfortunately I do not speak Turkish to be able to read what is being written in the Turkish press apart from some English language Turkish newspapers on the Internet. What specifically did you hear or read on behalf of the Greek Orthodox church which implies hatred towards Turks and Muslims?

All GC refugees want to return to their ancestral lands and they don't care how this massive relocation will affect the social structure, economical life, psychological mood and security of TC community.

I am aware about this TC concern and fear. I do not wish to play it down. GC are, to the best of my knowledge, willing to accommodate and address this issue in the best possible way so that what you are fearing will not happen. Firstly we are not talking about a massive relocation. The TC side should also be more concerned on how to accommodate this issue. Instead of wasting GC properties in the north and selling them to foreigners, they should and could begin planning on how to address this issue by setting up contingency plans for whatever relocation needs will arise and where these people will go and live. You should not forget that under Annan plan, the territory under the administration of the TC community is about 29.5% (after removing the percentage of the UK bases from the total.) That means at least 1.6 times more than the population ration of TCs. The property arrangements and the formula of Anan plan would have rendered to the TC community at least 1.7 times more private land than they had in their ownership before 1974, which by the way was 17.6% of the total private land of Cyprus (almost the population percentage.) The real value of this land which only TC would be eligible to take in their possession, (unless of course if they choose to sell it to foreigners as they currently do,) would have been much more than their fair share, simply by taking into consideration that the TC state will possess 40% of the coastline, which un-doughty constitutes the most expensive land. There is of course a problem that the TC leadership has to face. A lot of GC land was wasted to people that did not have a right to posses it. Settlers, politicians from Turkey, the UK, military officers etc. However, this is not a problem that the GCs have created and here Turkey has to also take up its responsibility in solving it. Turkey has to be ready to dig their hands into their pockets too. This should not be expected only by the GCs to do, as the Anan plan indirectly required them to do -which in a scrupulous way would have made them compensate themselves from their own pockets.

GC leadership and their crew want "majority rule" not because of they respect democracy but to build a stronger tie with western world for the benefits and political status of Hellenic Ruling Elite.

We are not talking about an absolute majority rule. In the same way that GC do not accept the concept of absolute political equality as the TC interpret it and as Annan plan envisioned it -for many obvious reasons, they are also aware that the concept of “absolute majority rule” equally respectively cannot be accepted by TCs. The question that we need to address is how to strike a faire balance between these two concepts. The question that needs to be answered is what amount of minimum political participation is necessary for the TCs so that they have an effective role in the decision making, which at the same time doesn’t profoundly violate basic democratic rules. Any misbalancing on the way this issue is addressed, will only backfire soon or late.

[boulio]

Kifeas welcome to the forum im a greek-american very interested in the cyprus proble because i think with the cyprus problem mutually agreed and solved by both communities in cyprus then i believe that relations between greece and turkey will also get lot better.You said:

We are not talking about an absolute majority rule. In the same way that GC do not accept the concept of absolute political equality as the TC interpret it and as Annan plan envisioned it -for many obvious reasons, they are also aware that the concept of “absolute majority rule” equally respectively cannot be accepted by TCs. The question that we need to address is how to strike a faire balance between these two concepts. The question that needs to be answered is what amount of minimum political participation is necessary for the TCs so that they have an effective role in the decision making, which at the same time doesn’t profoundly violate basic democratic rules. Any misbalancing on the way this issue is addressed, will only backfire soon or late.

do you have any recomandations for changes in were and how we find that middle ground?

[insan]

Insan, you open too many issues simultaneously my friend and one gets lost in trying to catch up with what to comment on and what not to.

Sorry about it compatriot Kifeas. Ok, let's start with "political equality" of two communities. In my opinion, the "political equality" as is envisaged in Annan Plan is a good thought and embraced by majority of TCs. However it is not adequate, in my opinion.

The "political equality" of two communities as is envisaged in Annan Plan should be granted for the permenant GC residents of TCCS as well. How?

Please follow the link to get detailed info about my suggestion.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... l+equality

[Kifeas]

Saint Jimmy,
thanks for the welcoming and the comments.