Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

My previous message was written as a reply to Insan’s very first question on whether he should interpret my words as there are no such things as TC community, GC community, "political equality" of these two major communities and also a reply to Turkcyp on whether we can enforce one single Cypriot identity.

[insan]

Well compatriot Kifeas.

The difference between two major communities of Cyprus and different ethnic groups of USA is that today's USA evolved into a federation in 100 years as a consequence of a civil war and a confederation.

Moreover our retrospection and location of Cyprus is completely peculiar to itself and have no similarities with the ethnic groups of US or any other state.

Thus, the solution of Cyprus problem must be based upon its own peculiar retrospection and circumstances.

Can we cultivate the tropical fruits and vegetables in Cyprus like Americans cultivate in US? No. Perhaps in greenhouse. But if we put people in greenhouse, I don't think they would like to be there for the sake of Cypriotism.

Cypriotism is something the internal social dynamics of two communities can create in the course of time. Noone feel himself/herself Cypriot(As one people instead of two communities) by force of any law or any authority. Above all, GC leadership and some groups of Hellene's still keep giving us the same usual message.

[Kifeas]

Well compatriot Insan,

It definately seems that you do not feel a Cypriot any more than you feel a Turk or a Turkish Cypriot. I feel a Cypriot more than anything else. No one imposed this to me by any force or any law, except plain logic. This doesn’t prohibit me from being aware of my cultural, linguistic or historical background.

In Cyprus the two communities lived intermixed for more than 400 years and got along in most instances. They even made together a few failed revolts against the Ottomans and fought side by side in the 2nd world war.

Your arguments remind me those of the sophists in ancient Greece. You are determined to one cause, which in my view implies a fixation to the idea of two separate people living side by side in a loose federation, as long as political equality is achieved and the option of permanent partition hanging in the background once the circumstances will allow it. Instead of being dialectical you are rationalising this pre-determined cause by grabbing unfortunate and in many cases unrelated events from the past and arbitrarily introduce theorems to match them up.

Okay, you have an answer for the US. What about the UK in which also many different sub-cultural and sub-ethnic groups live? What about Australia and Canada? What about the analogy I made with Turkey and the Kurds? Only in Cyprus the conditions are such as not to be able to follow the examples and experience of all the others?

What is the peculiarity of our location in which you refer to? Perhaps Turkey’s strategic interests in Cyprus? Are you in the business of serving these interests? Greece doesn’t have any interests in Cyprus and even if it had, I wouldn’t give a damn sheet about them. Maybe the interests of the British or the Americans to have the people of Cyprus in constant tension and dissent so that they can control us better? I am not in this business either!

What about the human rights of the people in this country? Why in the cause of any political settlement I should be deprived of my right to return and live with dignity and respect in the place were all my ancestors have lived for thousands of years? What about your right to permanently settle in any part of Cyprus without fearing that this will reduce your community’s population in the north and thus endanger or risk it’s political takeover by the Greek Cypriots? Is your love for Cyprus limited only to the north half of it? Why should I be allowed to come and live only as a tourist in the north part of my country, in a place were all my ancestors lived without restriction for 2, 3 or even 4 thousand years in the past?

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

What about the human rights of the people in this country? Why in the cause of any political settlement I should be deprived of my right to return and live with dignity and respect in the place were all my ancestors have lived for thousands of years?

Should have thought about that pre 1974 and during 30 years of negotiations.

What about your right to permanently settle in any part of Cyprus without fearing that this will reduce your community’s population in the north and thus endanger or risk it’s political takeover by the Greek Cypriots?

We dont want those rights we gave them up in 1974. This way we avoid any Greek domination.

Is your love for Cyprus limited only to the north half of it?

Yes you are right, would rather love the north and stay alive than love the whole island and fear for our families well being 24 hours a day.

Why should I be allowed to come and live only as a tourist in the north part of my country, in a place were all my ancestors lived without restriction for 2, 3 or even 4 thousand years in the past?

You made your bed now you have to lie in it.

[insan]

Well compatriot Insan,

It definately seems that you do not feel a Cypriot any more than you feel a Turk or a Turkish Cypriot. I feel a Cypriot more than anything else. No one imposed this to me by any force or any law, except plain logic. This doesn’t prohibit me from being aware of my cultural, linguistic or historical background.

Sorry compatriot Kifeas but after reading your intentional interpretation based upon you and me; ignoring the well known public point of view regarding "Cypriotism", I see no reason for further discussion on this issue. I don't think you misunderstood the things I've said. I had this experience several times when dicscussing the same issue with some other GCs. The issue is not whether you or me feel like Cypriot. Or pretending that feeling like Cypriot. While your elected representatives presidents speaking about your national cause how can I feel myself as Cypriot?

You still didn't answer my question. What is your elected representative's national cause concerning Cyprus?

No one else should take actions which adversely affect our policy on the Cyprus question and in the final analysis harm our national cause.

I do not question the patriotism, good faith or national motives of any Greek Cypriot. But these qualities do not necessarily promote a national cause. A mistaken action may cause enormous damage to a national issue, regardless of the good intentions and noble motives behind it.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/kygtpen/ ... gtpen.html

The President admitted that his decision "constitutes a change from the previous decision concerning the deployment of the missiles in Cyprus."


"But I do not accept that today's decision was theresult of giving in to pressures, threats and blackmail. Itwas simply the result of responsible assessment andrealistic evaluation of all the existing conditions, factorsand prospects, which affects, directly or indirectly, thecourse of our national issue," President Clerides said.


At the same time, he said "I believe that the decision Ihave taken today is correct. And I am absolutely sure thatour national cause and our national interest would be servedeffectively with this decision."

http://kypros.org/UN/bul-1298.htm

Ministry raps pupils for new demo
By Aline Davidian
THE Education Ministry has issued a stern rebuke to school children

who joined university students in a march yesterday on the American embassy.

"The government considers the national issue to be passing through a critical stage, and these types of action may even result in damaging the national cause," said senior Education Ministry Official Christos Georgiades yesterday.

The march was to mark the 24th anniversary of the student uprising against the Junta in Greece and to link it to the continuing Cypriot struggle.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cmnews/1 ... mnews.html

The Greek main opposition leader told reporters that the Cyprus issue was the top national cause for Greece and called on the Greek government and premier Costas Simitis to declare "today" that Greece "will not vote in favor of the accession of new member states if they do not also include Cyprus".

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/con ... ticle=8390

Pangalos, Mihailidis stress good cooperation between Greece, Cyprus
Meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly yesterday, Foreign Minister Theodoros Pangalos and his Cypriot counterpart Alekos Mihailidis discussed issues of bilateral cooperation, the Cyprus problem and certain details of Prime Minister Costas Simitis' planned visit to Nicosia.
Mr. Mihailidis underlined the usefulness of bilateral cooperation.

"We are particularly happy because the results of the (Greek) elections maintain the road open for the continuation of this close cooperation between the two countries, which is very useful for the national cause of Cyprus," he said.

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/apeen/199 ... apeen.html

Statements of PASOK President Mr. George A. Papandreou following his meeting with the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr. Tassos Papadopoulos
14 March, 2004

Mr. Papandreou: I had a very good meeting with the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr. Papadopoulos. I stressed, as I have stated, that we continue to support the effort of Cyprus toward a viable and functional solution, and we are, as always, present in every initiative to support this national cause.

http://media.papandreou.gr/media/conten ... language=0


They try hard to conceal this "national cause" issue but they can't. What kind of "national cause" is this they are refering to?

Do you still expect me to feel like Cypriot? I feel myself like a human being born in Cyprus and therefore a Cypriot. Until British Rule, TC were Ottoman settlers in Cyprus. A group of exploited working classes revolted against Sultan. True. Recently, although it wasn't a conscious and organized reaction we revolted against Denktash's nerdily behaviours and stance concerning Cyprus and its two communities. TCs don't trust Tassos as well. As much they don't trust and like Denktash; they also don't like and trust Tassos. However majority of GCs like and trust Tassos stance. so what? Are we still Cypriots.


In mid 1800's Greeks begin to seed "Megali Idea" and Enosis into the brains and hearts of GCs while TC still feel themselves muslims of Cyprus. Were they Cypriots?

In 1950s none of them bother to ask muslim Cypriots whether they wish annexation with Greece or given %20 of the North of the Island for annexation with Turkey. Were they still Cypriots?

In 60's they didn't digest the "politically equal" status given to TCs and they revolted against their muslim Cypriot brothers to degrade them into a minority status and achieve Enosis. Were they still brothers.

Until late 90s GC priests and laws forbade inter-marriage with your muslim Cypriot brothers. What kind of Cypriots were we then.

The things that push us apart are much more than the things bring us together.

Ignoring them does not change the facts but only cause to damage and end the friendship and communication between us.

Sorry.

The end.

[-mikkie2-]

The long and short of it that Insan simply ignores the views and opinions of people if they do not align with his own.

I personally, even though I live in the UK, think of myself as Cypriot 1st and Greek 2nd. I'm sure that many people feel the same too. We make a point of differentiating ourselves from mainland Greeks.

So, back to Insans 'Hellenism' and 'ruling elites'!

The national cause of Cyprus is for Cyprus to be a free country where every person living there is respected. It means the end of the Turkish occupation. It means TC's taking their rightful place together with the GC's.

It does not mean enosis with Greece!

[insan]

The Geostrategic Orientation of Hellenism and the Goals of our National Strategy

Within that framework, the priorities of our foreign policy are stable and our positions well known and clearly formulated. For the incorporation of Cyprus into the European Union. For the way in which we deal with Greek - Turkish disputes. For the European approach to Turkey and Helsinki. For our active participation in the Balkan developments, our contribution to the reconstruction of the Balkans and our perseverance with a common stance in the area. For our mediatory initiatives in the Middle East.

For the reorganization of expatriate Hellenism. For our contribution to global cooperation and solidarity.

www.pasok.gr/en/policies/index.asp?id=12

[insan]

The long and short of it that Insan simply ignores the views and opinions of people if they do not align with his own.

I personally, even though I live in the UK, think of myself as Cypriot 1st and Greek 2nd. I'm sure that many people feel the same too. We make a point of differentiating ourselves from mainland Greeks.

So, back to Insans 'Hellenism' and 'ruling elites'!

The national cause of Cyprus is for Cyprus to be a free country where every person living there is respected. It means the end of the Turkish occupation. It means TC's taking their rightful place together with the GC's.

It does not mean enosis with Greece!

Speak about yourself then. Noone have to believe in you, though. It is obvious who have not respect to others view's and interrupt nerdily.

[-mikkie2-]

If you want to have private discussions then pm your recipients instead of posting directly on the forum!

I stated what I think is our national cause. If you don't like what you hear then go find someone that concurrs with your points of view. You will be searching for a long time!

[erolz]

Hi Kifeas - and welcome to the forum.

I had 'withdrawn' from posting here for a while - but it looks like I am back now. For your info I am half british half Cypriot (TC). I was born in UK and lived there until about 2.5 years ago when I moved to Cyprus (North).

Ideally there shouldn’t be. In modern multicultural democratic countries (nations,) it is one thing the issue or the status of citizenship and another thing the individual’s religious, cultural, linguistic, ideological preferences or status.

Certainly in an ideal world Cypriots would just be Cypriots and there would be no tension between GC and TC. Also in an ideal world the rich and powerful would not use their wealth and power to maintain their advantage at the expense of the poor and weak, millions would not die for want of basic sanitation or medical care and trillions every year would not be spent on arms or on trying to convince people that happiness can be found in possesions. We do not live in an ideal world.

Why is it, in the real world then, that there is such tension between the two communites in Cyprus? I would suggest that the reason why there is tension today stems from the fact that in the past and specificaly from the point at which Cyprus became an independent state those that truely wished to build a multicultural Cyprus were undermined, diminished and even killed by those that wished to create a mono cultural Cyprus (and those that wished to create two mono cultural Cypruses). It is all well and fine to say we should just accept that we are Cypriot and get along despite our differnent cultures - but the fact remains we failed to do this in the past and thus just stating this is what we should do and ignoring the past is to me just dreaming. There is nothing wrong with dreaming - but it is not a way to solve the problems today imho.

The best example is that of the US.

For me at least there is a significant difference between the US (and or the UK) and the Cyprus situation. There the different cultural groups are a result of immigration into these countries over time. Usualy when an immigrant arrives in a country like the UK for a period of time they still consider their 'homeland' to be the country they came from. This can continue for generations or only last for a short time. Either way at the point at which they consider the UK their 'homeland' they are by default 'British' first and foremost. So before this point they do not expect to have political equality in a country they consider is not their homeland - just eqaul rights as an indivduals (but not as an immigrant community). After this point they do not need or want sperate political equality because they consider themselves 'British'.

In Cyprus the situation is different. Here there are two distinct communites - both of which consider Cyprus to be their homeland. TC do not feel they are immigrants to Cyprus any more than GC do. There was no Cypriot nation into which TC could integrate themselves into. The Cypriot nation was created at a point when both communites already existed and each considered Cyprus to be their homeland. To me it is very different to be told that you can and should have no more political rights or say as a community in your own homeland than a minority community has in a country that they consdier is not their homeland. A more relevant comparison (though still a weak one) for me with the US would be the example of the native american indians and the 'neo european' immigrants / colonists. There you have two different groups that both consider and considered the US to be their homeland at the point at which the US became an independent nation. The american indians have a large degree of political equality and sovreignty within the US. There is 'racial discrimination' and restrictions on americans rights to live and settle and be politicaly represented in the areas that are deemed to be part of the American Indian nation.

If I go to live in France and become a french citizen I do not want or expect that the british community in France (or the TC community in France) should have a status or political rights greater than that of a minority community. When I go and live in Cyprus, the land of my Father and his father and his father and so on - yet be told that my 'community' should have no more rights or say in the running of this country than those of a minority. To me there is a very real difference in these two senarios. Can you see that difference?

Turkey has about the same percentage of Kurdish origin citizens. Not only it fights with nail and teeth not to allow them separate political rights, but also, up until recently they were not even allowed to speak their language, publicly. Why then Turkey doesn’t form a federation with the Anatolian Kurdish areas on the basis of political equality and instead wants them to think and act as Turkish citizens?

I agree with you that Turkey's position on these two issues is totaly and fundamentaly inconsistent. I personaly support the idea and cause of some degree of autonomy and political eqaulity for Kurds in Turkey (and elsewhere). I think that in their own homeland (a land they have lived in before the formation of the modern Turkish state) they should not be considered to have no more status and rights than those of a 'minority community'. I do not think they should be totaly under the control and at the mercy of a culturaly different numerical majority that has shown much animosity towards them in the past, in their own homeland.

Why then not Turkish and Greek Cypriots shouldn't be able to think and act as Cypriot citizens in a unified country?

The reason why it is very hard for TC and GC to think and act as a single Cypriot people today is because in the past and especialy at the point at which the Cypriot nation was founded GC (and TC) did not try and found a Cypriot nation. GC tried to found a purely GC nation and TC resisted this.

If one truly loves Cyprus, he or she owes to love it for what it is. Together with all of its people and all it’s subcultures and languages.

Fine sentiments indeed. The kind of sentiments that would have put your life at risk in the past, if you had expressed them publicaly and vociferously.

In fact I would rather prefer to live in a multicultural society because it is richer in choices than in a country that is mono-cultural. I cannot imagine how boring such a country will be. It’s like having a garden with only white or yellow or red roses versus a garden that has roses of all colures. Which one is more attractive? Certainly the second one.

I too prefer to live in a multi cutural environment. I am a Londoner by birth and spent most of my life there. There is much that I dislike about the UK and Londond but the single thing that gives me pride in saying I am a Londoner is that I know of no where in the world where so many different cultures live in such close proximity and density with such little tension and strife. I would love Cyprus to give me a similar sense of pride. However you can not go from A to D without first passing through B and C.

Being a realist however, I have to take into consideration the realities of the present and certainly what my Turkish Cypriot compatriots aspire as their ideal solution.

TC do not want to be a political minority in their own homeland. They do not want to be under the effective total political control in their homeland of a community that is different from them and historicaly has ignored their wishes and concerns and shown hostility and violence towards them. I share the same 'end goal' as you - a single Cypriot community (D).I just think that first we have to find a way of living peacefully togeather as two communites first as a means of reaching the goal (D). I think this because of the unique situation that created a Cypriot nation and because of the history of abject failure of GC and TC to live togeather peacfully in the past.

To try and make my concerns as a TC clear I want you to try and imagine two very different GC. One (lets call him Mak) wants to create a Greek Cyprus. Sure Mak is a 'progressive' - he has nothing against non GC, as long as they do not intefere with his desire that Cyprus be run and controlled by GC. As long as Cyprus is controlled by GC, without any let and hinderance for GC desires with regard to Cyprus he is happy. The other GC (lets cal him Antimak) wants to create a Cypriot nation that is neither Greek or Turkish but just Cypriot. He does not care if Cyprus is controlled by GC or TC or British Cypriots or German Cypriots - as long as they too consider themselves Cypriot.

So Mak, in order to achieve his goal and desire for a Greek Cyprus - run by GC to meet the needs and desires of GC, argues for a single Cypriot identity and straight numerical representation of indivduals - safe in the knowledge that GC are a numerical majority.

Antimak, in order to achieve his goal of a Cypriot Cyprus - where Greekness or Turkishness or anything elseness is secondary or even irrelevant (compared to Cypriotness), argues for a single Cypriot identity and straight numerical representation of indivduals.

So can you see my 'problem', as a TC, with arguments that we should just forget our GC or TC identites, forget the past failures of GC and TC to live togeather without killing each other? Can you see why, even if I believe that Antimak is totaly sincere in his desire and that it is the same desire as mine, that his advocating going straight to D without going through B and C could also be used by Mak to achive a very different D to that which myself and Antimak desire? Can you understand why because of the history of Cyprus, I as a TC, want and need some kind of 'protection' against Mak and his desires. That these protections are wanted as a B and C point through which we can reach D, without the danger that D will end up being a very different place to that which I (and Mak) think and hope it will be?

I will go on answering my friend Insan’s comments on my previous message in the forthcoming batch of writing. In the mean time he is free to comment on this batch of writing that I just posted.

Once again welcome to the forum - I hope that I am also 'free' to comment on your batch of writting?