Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

One last point here u weild partiton "Partitionlu" like its a dirty word, you should think of it as another real possibility for a final solution.

It means exactly what I said. why do you feel it's a dirty word anyway? Did you ever see me using dirty words?

[brother]

Jimmy well said, if half of all cypriots were like you we would now be sitting by the beach in a unified cyprus having beers and talking about football, ARE YOU REALLY A SAINT.

[MicAtCyp]

Some rights will be violated. I'm not going to says that "all refugees will return back". They won't and your leadership has been deceiving you that they will. Whenever you talk about bizonality, you know that some refugee rights will be violated. Some TCs who left some land in the south won't get their lands back, some GCs who left their lands in the north won't get their lands back. But I think it's for the greater good.

Don't be sure Metecyp. NOBODY-NOONE can violate anyones rights not even a 99% majority. The right to return is there, the right to get back your property is there. It is upto the individual to excercise it or not.My personal opinion is that the majority will not excercese it.

Whether there will be a conflict of these rights with other rights of the TCs arising from a "force majeure" situation over a period of 30 years is another story. In these instances it will be upto the individuals to settle the difference between them, or the courts will decide according to EU law. And it does not mean the courts will be flooded with petitions, because one case may be similar with another 1000 so it will automatically have a precedence.

This idea of comprehensive solution that will take care of everything will lead to nothing but a fascist imposing of doctrines.

And any effort to find an agreement based on bizonal-bicommunal Fedration is doomed to fail before it can even start. The Gcs don't care about it's name but do care on it's implications on their human rights. I can understand why the TCs will be satisfied with it, but it is not only the TCs that need to be happy.

Now, let's say we go back to exactly 1960. How can we trust that GCs will accept our rights in 1960 constitution this time? What has changed? Maybe Enosis is dead but the mentality of "we're majority, we make the decisions" is still there.

You can be safequarded through agreement. It is very unlikely that as time passes you will not be the majority in the northern part.If the Gcs don't follow the agreement you will have all the proof in your hands to declare autonomy and eventually a separate state.

The whole world believed (including EU) this plan was a unification plan. The only ones who didnt were 76% of the Greek Cypriot population...

Did the whole world read the Anan Plan? Can you refer me to the comments of any independent foreign constitutional expert who read the Anan Plan and did not consider it the work of a schizophrenic?
Most foreigners just trusted the Anan Plan should be fine, because it was presumably the work of the UN.

Do you think Turkish Cypriots are poor because of their choice?

Yes.

[garbitsch]

wrote:
Do you think Turkish Cypriots are poor because of their choice?

Yes.

And the problem can be solved when T.Cs acknowledge their guilt and abandon TRNC and go back to RoC. Is that what you are arguing?

[garbitsch]

MitAtCyp asked:

Did the whole world read the Anan Plan? Can you refer me to the comments of any independent foreign constitutional expert who read the Anan Plan and did not consider it the work of a schizophrenic?
Most foreigners just trusted the Anan Plan should be fine, because it was presumably the work of the UN.

Saint Jimmy answered:

Correct. If we are arguing that we should care what the world thinks, we should also apply the basic rule that the whole world implements.
Conversely, if we are arguing that we shouldn't care (as 76% of us did), we could also ignore their basic rule. Correct?
My view is that we can't use the 'world' only when it suits us. Like, when the UN votes on a resolution favourable to us, we love them. When they ask for something that we don't like, like telling them what kind of changes we want so they can help us solve the damn thing, they are plotting against us, and our love vanishes into thin air...

[erolz]

You can be safequarded through agreement.

As we were in 1960? I understand and ultimately can accept safeguards by agreement but you must also realise why we remain 'skeptical' as to how far 'mere agreements' can actualy protected us, given the history, if those that make the agreements are only doing so as a 'means to an end' and without sincereity. As important as the agreements (for me at least) is my perception of the intent of those that sign them This kind of concern is only increased when poster like boulio insist that it is both right and valid for GC to ignore any agrement they have made or may make in the future if they deem it to be against their interest later - as he has done here.

[metecyp]

And any effort to find an agreement based on bizonal-bicommunal Fedration is doomed to fail before it can even start

I guess there's no point in talking then because for me bizonal federation is the only way forward. Do you believe that most of GCs and GC leadership think like you do? T-Pap talks about bizonal-bicommunal federation every day, I'm wondering if he's just saying it.

You can be safequarded through agreement. It is very unlikely that as time passes you will not be the majority in the northern part.

We were supposed to be safeguarded through agreement as well in 1963. But the agreements mean nothing now after 40 years. That's why we need something stronger and I think it's very likely that TCs won't be majority in the north if there's no bizonality enforced. There're around 150.000 TCs. If all refugees return back, there will be 200.000 GC refugees. I'm sure many GCs would like to have a house in Kyrenia and other places. In any case, without bizonality, it's very likely that TCs will be minority in the north.

[cannedmoose]

Jimmy well said, if half of all cypriots were like you we would now be sitting by the beach in a unified cyprus having beers and talking about football, ARE YOU REALLY A SAINT.

Next time I'm in Cyprus I'll take him to Stavrovouni and sanctify him for ya bro'. Since I've been through two Christenings in my lifetime, that must make me a holy man!

[MicAtCyp]

And the problem can be solved when T.Cs acknowledge their guilt and abandon TRNC and go back to RoC. Is that what you are arguing?

First of all if you want answers to your questions you must answer my own questions that you left behind. So for the last time I am doing you the favour of replying your questions, while my own questions remain un-answered.

The problem can be solved when there is a solution where the illegality of the Kksomething and everything that is based upon, evaporates to thin air, and there is justice and restoration of human rights for all, including our refugeees.One way of solving it, is the return back to RoC constitution, under which as you know got your Ids, your passports, your EU aid, and your classification as Europeans.

As for the points of Jimmy, universal principles like majority rule (from where his argument originates) are well known to the whole world, whereas the Anan Plan is not even known by the people a few miles away from Cyprus like Egypt, and Lebanon. Secondly like I said before, I don't accept the argument that the whole world has a YES or NO opinion over the Anan Plan so your argument is irrelevant. First prove me the whole world knows the Anan Plan (like they know of what majority rule means), then I will have no problem accepting their opinion. 99% of the EU MPs never read even a single page from the Anan Plan!!!

PS. As Jimmy seems to be on the same wavelength like you, feel free to ask for his help in replying..
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As we were in 1960? I understand and ultimately can accept safeguards by agreement but you must also realise why we remain 'skeptical' as to how far 'mere agreements' can actualy protected us, given the history, if those that make the agreements are only doing so as a 'means to an end' and without sincereity. As important as the agreements (for me at least) is my perception of the intent of those that sign them This kind of concern is only increased when poster like boulio insist that it is both right and valid for GC to ignore any agrement they have made or may make in the future if they deem it to be against their interest later - as he has done here.

I understand your points and concerns Erol, but the sincerety can be checked prior as well as after the implementation. Like I said there will be ample time for you to evaluate the situation and ENOUGH open doors to escape from a non sincere application of the agreement. a)The fact that you are already concentrated in the North and most propably this concentration will last for ever b)The demilitarising procedure will take at least 2 years so the Turkish Army will still be here in case everything goes wrong because of GC cheating.

I can see your non trust to GCs, but beleive me there is an equal non trust among us for the TCs.The only way to eradicate this mistrust is start working together.

[-mikkie2-]

I can see your non trust to GCs, but beleive me there is an equal non trust among us for the TCs.The only way to eradicate this mistrust is start working together.

This is the eminently sensible way forward. There seems to be this notion that we will revert back to the past as soon as Turkish soldiers leave. No GC in their right mind would start messing things up. If they did, it would be GC's that would be kicking the asses of these people.

I think many people have moved on from the past and just want to get into a situation where there is a stable future so that we know where we are going. The uncertainty causes mistrust, and the continuing separation does the same too.