Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Kifeas wrote:

Reply to Insan,
The article itself has a lot of valid and non-valid points and assumptions. Each side has its defensive arguments to the dispute. I am happy to discuss with you any particular point or issue in this article but you have to be more specific. It is impossible to comment on an article of a few pages in just one or two sentences. It would require me to write a similar in size article in order to properly comment to it.

It is a well known fact that, in early 50s GC ruling elite gathered under command of monarcho-fascist Grivas to initiate an armed struggle in order to achieve annexation with Greece. The then aim(cause that GC ruling elite sworn to achieve) of Hellenic ruling elite was not the independency of Cyprus. Even that's why they based their cause upon "self-determination" right of Cypriot people.

Question 1: Has there ever been a Cypriot people in Cyprus or it was just an excuse to achieve the annexation of Cyprus with Greece?

Question 2: What were the main motives of GC leadership which led them to maintain the Enosis idea, in post RoC period?

What I am trying to do is have a dialogue on our ideas and opinions in a dialectical manner -since you mention that you are a left-winger.

I'm happy to have met someone like you that willing to have a dialogue on our ideas and opinions in a dialecti manner.

I was born in Lapithos in 1965.
You mention that you are a Cypriot; therefore, may I call you compatriot?

Of course, compatriot Kifeas.

[Kifeas]

Compatriot Insan,

My reply to your first question is that of course there was and there is a Cypriot people in Cyprus. Only Denktash and his followers claim that the only Cypriots that exist in Cyprus are the donkeys. The 1955 EOKA strangle for Union with Greece was based on the assumption that since the majority of Cypriots are of Hellenic cultural and linguistic background and that since the outcome of a referendum in 1949, indicated that some 90% of Cypriots (obviously only GCs voted) favoured Enosis, such a cause was morally justified. My opinion and that of the majority of Greek Cypriots today is that the goal of the strangle -Union with Greece and not independence, was a political mistake. Never the less, it is well known today that except a marginal percentage of maybe 1% of GCs, no one else favours such a goal and not a single political party preaches it. In fact, most GCs today feel quite proud of their separate status as an independent country, rather than being just another district of mainland Greece. Evidence to this is the fact that one of the issues (among many others of course) that angered GCs from the Annan plan, was the fact of loosing (changing) the Cypriot flag which they came to become synonymous with the status of Cyprus as an in-deepened country. The fact that many Greek flags appear in the south may be explained in a rather folklore way than anything else.

Your second question regards the continuation of the Enosis idea in the post RoC period. Not all GC political leadership went along with the Enosis idea. Only a portion of the extreme right wing circles maintained this idea. Makarios himself abandoned this idea in the early 60s just after the “independence.” However, because most of the governmental and police positions of the young RoC were filed by those right wing sections of the EOKA period, as a reward for their participation in the Union strangle, Makarios was feeling vulnerable towards them and was forced to preach here and there the idea of Union to keep them pacified. The truth is that he did not aspire it any more and this is also proved by the fact that when it (Union) was offered to him in 1964 under the Achenson plan, in exchange of a Turkish military base in Karpasia, he refused it.

The goal for Union with Greece was a GC political mistake.
What about the strangle of the Turkish Cypriot leadership for Taksim, before and after the RoC period?

[insan]

Compatriot Insan,

My reply to your first question is that of course there was and there is a Cypriot people in Cyprus. Only Denktash and his followers claim that the only Cypriots that exist in Cyprus are the donkeys.

Compatriot Kifeas;

So can I interprete your words as there are no such things TC community, GC community, "political equality" of these two major communities?

The 1955 EOKA strangle for Union with Greece was based on the assumption that since the majority of Cypriots are of Hellenic cultural and linguistic background and that since the outcome of a referendum in 1949, indicated that some 90% of Cypriots (obviously only GCs voted) favoured Enosis, such a cause was morally justified. My opinion and that of the majority of Greek Cypriots today is that the goal of the strangle -Union with Greece and not independence, was a political mistake.

But nevertheless they kept building strong political and cultural relationships reciprocally. Actually that's what Enosis means. Freedom for full political and cultural integration and cooperation with Greece for the great ideals of Hellenism.

Question: What is the national cause of GC leadership and Greece that on every occasion they emphisize that they were in full concensus upon this national cause?

Never the less, it is well known today that except a marginal percentage of maybe 1% of GCs, no one else favours such a goal and not a single political party preaches it.

Because it has already been achieved in the areas under control of Hellenic Ruling elite. The problem is spreading it to the areas under control of Turkish Ruling Elite. "Sovereign RoC" has become a member of EU as result of Greece's blackmailing of EU. "Sovereign RoC" still is waving the flags of Greece in every GC school in south and all around South Cyprus. "Sovereign RoC" still is using the Greek National Anthem.

In fact, most GCs today feel quite proud of their separate status as an independent country, rather than being just another district of mainland Greece.

It seems to me a so-called independence and apart from most of the GC left wingers; right wingers like seeing Greece flags all around South Cyprus, singing Greek anthem, having strong political and cultural relationships with Greece. Even using Greece's EU membership for blackmailing EU for "RoCs" EU membership.

Evidence to this is the fact that one of the issues (among many others of course) that angered GCs from the Annan plan, was the fact of loosing (changing) the Cypriot flag which they came to become synonymous with the status of Cyprus as an in-deepened country. The fact that many Greek flags appear in the south may be explained in a rather folklore way than anything else.

Maybe.

Your second question regards the continuation of the Enosis idea in the post RoC period. Not all GC political leadership went along with the Enosis idea.

According to many reliable sources, such as cyprus-conflict.net; GC political leadership went along with the Enosis idea until mid-60s then they changed their scheme and based it on "self-determination" right of Cypriot people, aka "majority rule" which would obviously only favour the GC community.

Only a portion of the extreme right wing circles maintained this idea.

Their only difference was choosing the merciless, fascist, underground armed struggle. That's all.(According to many reliable sources)

Makarios himself abandoned this idea in the early 60s just after the “independence.”

Makarios himself abandoned this idea in 1967 when GC community divided into two different ideaological camps:

1. Those who wanted immediate ENOSIS and

2. Those who came to realize (though late) that ENOSIS was impracticable under the prevailing conditions.

However, because most of the governmental and police positions of the young RoC were filed by those right wing sections of the EOKA period, as a reward for their participation in the Union strangle, Makarios was feeling vulnerable towards them and was forced to preach here and there the idea of Union to keep them pacified. The truth is that he did not aspire it any more and this is also proved by the fact that when it (Union) was offered to him in 1964 under the Achenson plan, in exchange of a Turkish military base in Karpasia, he refused it.

He and the left wingers abandoned the enosis idea in 1967 because of many reasons:

1- Junta came to power in Greece and they begin making open public propaganda both in Greece and in Cyprus for Enosis.

2- Turkey alarmed by this developments and the parliament gathered to decide for intervention.

3- US alarmed by this developments and interfered to stop Turkish intervention.

4- Makarios gave up insisting on his pre-condition "if TCs do not accept the minority status, I have nothing to negotiate with them"(See !965 report of Galo Plaza)

The goal for Union with Greece was a GC political mistake.
What about the strangle of the Turkish Cypriot leadership for Taksim, before and after the RoC period?

Our struggle wasn't/isn't only against Enosis but "majority rule" as well. Makarios has never abandoned the idea of "majority rule". ( see Denktash-Clerides letters.) As long as the Hellenic ruling elite insist on majority rule, partition will be our only alternative to choose.


Some related links:

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/mavratsas.htm
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/disloyal ... rkides.htm
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... 0%2771.htm
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/grivas.htm
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/makarios ... allaci.htm
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/galo_plaza_report.htm

[Kifeas]

Compatriot Insan,

I will reply to your comments hopefully later tonight as I have to run to the gym now.

[insan]

Compatriot Insan,

I will reply to your comments hopefully later tonight as I have to run to the gym now.

Ok compatriot Kifeas. Have a nice time.

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[cannedmoose]

Compatriot Insan,

I will reply to your comments hopefully later tonight as I have to run to the gym now.

Ok compatriot Kifeas. Have a nice time.

I think it's rather sweet... insan's found his soulmate at last

No offence intended guys, it's just unusual for insan to be so 'chummy'

[insan]

No offence intended guys, it's just unusual for insan to be so 'chummy'

Are you sure? Do you remember the early days of our flirt, cannedmoose? MicAtCyp was my "first love" but now we are "divorced". I "liked" Jimmy, you, Alexandros and bananiot much and I still "like" you but I don't believe I could "fall in love" with you and talk about "marriage". The first impressions I've got about Kifeas is very positive. Let's see how long our "flirt" will last.


Ps: Cannedmoose, if you wish to have an idea how my relationships were with some GCs, you may visit www.cyprusforum.com and browse back this forum.

[Piratis]

What there is is one Cyprus with people with one citizenship. The fact that many different cultures, different languages, different religions etc can all live peacefully in one country (and without 50% share of power) is something that is historically true for many countries, and now with globalization will become true for all countries.

What makes us be together as citizens of one country is not that we are the same, but the fact that we exist in the same place. There is no Turcypland or Greekcypland. There is just Cyprus, and if you choose to live here and be a citizen then you are cypriot. If you don't like other cypriots, then you are free to move out of the island.

[Kifeas]

This message is written as a reply to Insan’s very first question on whether he should interpret my words as to mean that there are no such things as TC community, GC community, "political equality" of these two major communities and also a partial reply to Turkcyp on whether we can enforce one single Cypriot identity.

Ideally there shouldn’t be. In modern multicultural democratic countries (nations,) it is one thing the issue or the status of citizenship and another thing the individual’s religious, cultural, linguistic, ideological preferences or status. The two issues are separate. The best example is that of the US. This country is a mosaic of many different sub-cultures, religions, ideologies and languages. Yet all of them are Americans or American citizens, like we could say here Cypriots or Citizens of Cyprus. No one can tell the Greek Americans or the Italian Americans or the Latinos or the Jews or the African Americans not to associate, practice, develop, promote, and enrich their individual or communal cultural status and customs. Yet all of them are American citizens and under the laws and the constitution they are equal among each other as individuals. No one of all these many different communities aspires to obtain separate political rights or divide the country on the basis of any one of the above parameters, i.e. ethnic origin, language, culture or religion. There is no such notion as majority or minority other than for literature or academic purposes. No Greek American feels to belong to a minority group, although Greek Americans constitute only 1% of the total population. Greek Americans maintain their Greek language schools, religion, Greek newspapers, TV and Radio stations, participate freely in all the political parties of the country as Americans and at the same time maintain their cultural and even political links with their ancestral home country (Greece.) Didn’t Americans fight each other in the past? Certainly they did. They had a bloody civil war. Until 40 years ago, African Americans were not allowed to ride on the same bus or even in some states go to same school with white Americans. They won their rights after many struggles. Yet they do not come up with the demand that because they were suppressed by the white Americans and even massacred in many cases, they should gain separate political rights or divide the country along black and white Americans and form a federation on the basis of political equality. As a percentage they are even more than the Turkish Cypriots.
In the US only English is the official language. Luckily in Cyprus the major languages (Turkish and Greek) are both the official languages of the country. Why we cannot follow the example of this country and we are trying to reinvent the wheel? The US is a federation but not on the basis of people but Geography. It has nothing to do with what we are trying to achieve here.
Turkey has about the same percentage of Kurdish origin citizens. Not only it fights with nail and teeth not to allow them separate political rights, but also, up until recently they were not even allowed to speak their language, publicly. Why then Turkey doesn’t form a federation with the Anatolian Kurdish areas on the basis of political equality and instead wants them to think and act as Turkish citizens? Why then not Turkish and Greek Cypriots shouldn't be able to think and act as Cypriot citizens in a unified country?
Of course one will answer to the above with the remark that in Cyprus there are two separate nations, which were recognised by the constitution as political partners, right from the start of the independence. Even before the independence, they were treated as such by the British and before the British, by the Ottomans. Why this thing cannot stop one day and instead we are planting the seeds for its continuation in perpetuity? What do the Turkish Cypriots have to fear from this? If one truly loves Cyprus, he or she owes to love it for what it is. Together with all of its people and all it’s subcultures and languages. In fact I would rather prefer to live in a multicultural society because it is richer in choices than in a country that is mono-cultural. I cannot imagine how boring such a country will be. It’s like having a garden with only white or yellow or red roses versus a garden that has roses of all colures. Which one is more attractive? Certainly the second one.
All the above was an introduction to what I believe should be the ideal solution.
Being a realist however, I have to take into consideration the realities of the present and certainly what my Turkish Cypriot compatriots aspire as their ideal solution. I will go on answering my friend Insan’s comments on my previous message in the forthcoming batch of writing. In the mean time he is free to comment on this batch of writing that I just posted.