Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

So you disagree with both me, BigOZ, and Kikapu who said the TCs who were not living in enclaves were never less rich landowners than the GCs????

[denizaksulu]

[quote="Pyrpolizer"]So you disagree with both me, BigOZ, and Kikapu who said the TCs who were not living in enclaves were never less rich landowners than the GCs????[/quote]

No Pyro, If you are directing your question to me, my answer is that 'Rich ' your words, land owners did end up in 'enclaves in 1963/4. That is all. My family ended up in Ay. Theodoros after first moving to Kophinou.
Regards
DA

[Pyrpolizer]

DA lets talk with numbers here. The total number of TCs before 1974 was 120,000.
It is documented that those who moved into enclaves were in total 25,000 and most of those moved into the Nicosia kionelli enclave.

To get an idea of the extend of how many TCs moved into enclaves notice that after 1974 (in 1975 actually) 50,000 TCs NONE OF WHICH was living in enclaves, but rather various areas of Cyprus moved to North after the 3rd Vienna agreement.

So yes I accept your statement that under all probabilities 1 out of 5 "rich" TC landowners ended up in enclaves where they mixed with the other 2 out of 5. If that makes the remaining 2 out of 5 the "wrong" people that I met, then so be it.

Visiting the enclaves meant guaranteed death for ANY GC, so I don't regret it anyway for not meeting the "right" ones.

[Kikapu]

Pyro,

I just wanted to make a correction to what you may have understood as to what I wrote to BigOz, regarding TC land being worth more than GC land, prior to 1974. I have no idea what the land values were before 1974 and who was rich and who was not. We were not rich for sure, despite having some land in the family circles.

As stated below, what I was trying to say was, that TODAY, any TC land in the RoC is worth more than any GC land that the TC's are holding, in this so called "exchange land", in the North, at least at the present political climate. These GC land prices will no doubt shoot up, if ever there was a recognized TC independent state in the North, but for now, most TC's would be richer in the land they have in the South as to the GC land they have in the North.

This only refers to land that was "exchanged on equal bases, Donüm per Donüm", and not those who bought GC land by the TON, because it was cheap or the settlers, who did not have any land in the South, so for them, GC land in the North is definitely worth more.

Donüm for Donüm, TC land in the South is worth more than what they have in the North now, so from financial point of view, TC's would be better off to re-claim their land in the South and return GC land in the North

Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.

Your above statement suggests as to what TC land WAS worth before 1974, Donüm per Donüm, which was not what I was thinking, but rather what the current prices are Donüm per Donüm.

Sorry if I was not clear on that point with my first quote to BigOz.

[Pyrpolizer]

Thanks for the clarification Kikapu.

[denizaksulu]

[quote="Pyrpolizer"]DA lets talk with numbers here. The total number of TCs before 1974 was 120,000.
It is documented that those who moved into enclaves were in total 25,000 and most of those moved into the Nicosia kionelli enclave.

To get an idea of the extend of how many TCs moved into enclaves notice that after 1974 (in 1975 actually) 50,000 TCs NONE OF WHICH was living in enclaves, but rather various areas of Cyprus moved to North after the 3rd Vienna agreement.

So yes I accept your statement that under all probabilities 1 out of 5 "rich" TC landowners ended up in enclaves where they mixed with the other 2 out of 5. If that makes the remaining 2 out of 5 the "wrong" people that I met, then so be it.

Visiting the enclaves meant guaranteed death for ANY GC, so I don't regret it anyway for not meeting the "right" ones. [/quote]

Sorry, Pyro, I wasnt counting numbers. I was only pointing to the fact that a certain category of TCs were in enclaves as well. Whats the big deal with numbers anyway. We are not (I hope) talking propaganda here.
Regards
DA

[denizaksulu]

Sorry again, Pyro. There is a misunderstsnding somewhere. I was referring to the period of 1963/4.
DA

[bigOz]

Btw bigOZ don't get me wrong, I only pointed the part in your post that refered to the population exchange agreement as wrong. The rest of your post was mostly superb, excellent analysis.

There were very good parts in posts from DA as well, and I am glad VP and humanist seem to understand each other so well.

In here we tend to just fight for some parts of posts we disagree, and we usually avoid praising the good parts that are enlightening/infomative and true.

I hope this sets the picture right.

Sorry for the late response. I never got you wrong and read with interest anything you write Pyrpoliser! It is just that after sending a post I was off doing something, and never had the chance to attend the computer since then. Sometimes I leave the computer on with th esite still connected and although it shows me as "online", I might actually be somewhere else!

I did read the Vienna Agreement before and I agree that the title of the agreement mentioned was not actually "Population exchange agreement" but it's purpose fitted the description.

I also agree that the population movement at the time was for mutual benefit in terms of politicians and their ideals at the time - hence, one cannot blame it solely on the TCs "actions"

The only thing I objected to is: Leaving out the isolated exceptions that may or may not have existed (which would not break the rule), I am yet to see any evidence of GCs being "forcibly removed" from the North! Many GCs come across in this post implying the GCs were forced to move by the Turkish military, with guns pointed at their heads and forcibly removed into South!

I mean it would help if people made it clear if they mean "indirectly forcibly removed" because they felt unsafe, "forcibly removed" meaning they were constantly threatened by the local resident TCs and had to move, "forcibly removed" because they could not maintain contact with their relatives in the South and decided to join them in the GC part of Cyprus, or "forcibly removed" in a physical campaign by the Turkish military who threatened their lives and moved them to South at gun-point...etc.etc.

It is quite easy to stick to fossilised terminology which often becomes adopted as truth when there is no evidence in reality to prove it. It would be like me claiming the 70,000 TCs were forcibly moved to the North! In fact that would apply more to the TCs case because RoC of government at the time could not guarantee their safety if they stayed in the South!

The claims that there were no "population exchange agreements" are also based on false premise! OK, so there was no Vienna or Moscow agreement that went on UN bulletins - BUT there was definitely a bilateral agreement by Makarios/Clerides and Denktash allowing large scale movement of GC and TC populations to North/South - within months of 1974 conflict! If I get the chance I shall retrieve the news of this agreement and the subsequent actions by UN who helped these masses move! I am sure thousands of TCs who resided in the tents at British bases in Limassol know exactly what I am talking about.

If there is any foreign media observation or report that GCs were physically, forcibly removed under threat by the TCs or the Turkish military after the invasion, I would be very much interested to read. But please do not quote me what has officially being claimed one-sided by the expired RoC government that followed the 1974 invasion or how the UN might have worded the movement of the people!

The UN history is full of flawed and biased actions especially against anything that is related to Turks or Muslims. This has been proven time and time again in many conflicts in Palestine, Cyprus, Afghanistan, Karabag (Azerbeijan), Bosnia, even some parts of Africa, where they always helplessly watched the atrocities carried out against the residents. As far as I am concerned, my feelings on the subject would be the same as many other TCs or Muslims abroad (albeit I am an atheist) - Their intentions are not honourable, and in their assemblies they speak with a "forked tongue"!

Regarding the TC enclaves, there is also a big misunderstanding during the use of this terminology. By "enclave", it is not meant just the areas that were under TC military control like part of Nicosia or Paphos were! It describes those areas populated by TCs only irrespective of whether they had a physical barricade depicting their borders. This applied to all TC villages in Cyprus and large concentrations of TCs in some areas following the 1963 attacks. It would not be an overestimation to claim at least half the TCs had since been displaced form their original
place of abode. If one has any statistical info about the TC population residing in around Larnaca, Limassol, Paphos, Polis, North of Nicosia and in the villages between these - I would be very much interested to read what the actual figures were.

[Pyrpolizer]

BigOz these are some short answrers:

1)The 3rd Vienna agreement allowed TCs who wished to moved to the North, assuming the 20,000 GCs LIVING in Kapraz would be fascilatated to stay THERE. So there was actually no exchange of any population.

2)You are asking if there is evidence that force was used later on to throw out those 20,000 GCs. I heve no web information to give you other than the info I just have in my head:there was oppression to them, threats directed to them (especially by the settlers) and other forms of pressure, e.g throwing stones on the windows all night, robberies (especially on elder people etc). In addition to that GC children were NOT allowed to go to secondary school. THAT WAS A FACT. So they were oblidged after the age of 12 to come to the government controlled areas just to go to high school. So we had separation of parents from their children. And not only that.After those children turned 17 years old they were not even permitted to go back to their parents in the summer or just go back and live in their villages again. So slowly slowly those 20,000 became only 200 today.
3) I completely agree with you on the definition of enclaves. HOWEVER do you think many TC will also agree with you when they claim the enclaves were just 3% of the area of Cyprus?

[denizaksulu]

[quote="Pyrpolizer"]BigOz these are some short answrers:

1)The 3rd Vienna agreement allowed TCs who wished to moved to the North, assuming the 20,000 GCs LIVING in Kapraz would be fascilatated to stay THERE. So there was actually no exchange of any population.

2)You are asking if there is evidence that force was used later on to throw out those 20,000 GCs. I heve no web information to give you other than the info I just have in my head:there was oppression to them, threats directed to them (especially by the settlers) and other forms of pressure, e.g throwing stones on the windows all night, robberies (especially on elder people etc). In addition to that GC children were NOT allowed to go to secondary school. THAT WAS A FACT. So they were oblidged after the age of 12 to come to the government controlled areas just to go to high school. So we had separation of parents from their children. And not only that.After those children turned 17 years old they were not even permitted to go back to their parents in the summer or just go back and live in their villages again. So slowly slowly those 20,000 became only 200 today.
3) I completely agree with you on the definition of enclaves. HOWEVER do you think many TC will also agree with you when they claim the enclaves were just 3% of the area of Cyprus? [/quote]

Pyro, I agree with you that these horrible things you mention regarding the school children did happen. I was very annoyed at this, when I first read it seems such a long time ago. This should never have happened, like so many other things.
However I cannot undestant the "obsession" with numbers.Now you talk about the percentage of size of enclaves. Are you a mathematician or statistician or something. Who cares about the size of them. May be I am missing the point on some past message.

RegardsDA I'm off for a few weeks, so no early reply.