BigOZ,
Populations were never exchanged!! That's a propaganda coming from Denktash . Read the 3rd Vienna agreement.
There was no Cyprus Problem for the TCs from 1974-2000
by Pyrpolizer » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:31 pm
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by denizaksulu » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:17 am
[quote="Pyrpolizer"]I don't remember who said it (Deniz or BigOz I think), but it is TRUE that there were many rich TC land owners before 1974. Just for the information of the forum the richest plowmen before 1974 were not the GC plowmen of Morphou but the TC plowmen of the Paphos and West Limassol districts.
It is very rare to hear such TRUTHS in this forum coming from TC members. All we hear is for those TCs who were indeed living in terrible conditions at poverty levels in the enclaves.
Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.The TCs traditionally owned most of the good lands by the water (he,he,he priveledges from the ottoman times
Yeap they were always known as big "chiftlikades"/big land owners if you allow me this term from the cyprus village language.
[/quote]
Is it so hard to believe that rich TC landowners also had to move to enclaves?
Regards
DA
It is very rare to hear such TRUTHS in this forum coming from TC members. All we hear is for those TCs who were indeed living in terrible conditions at poverty levels in the enclaves.
Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.The TCs traditionally owned most of the good lands by the water (he,he,he priveledges from the ottoman times
Yeap they were always known as big "chiftlikades"/big land owners if you allow me this term from the cyprus village language.
[/quote]
Is it so hard to believe that rich TC landowners also had to move to enclaves?
Regards
DA
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by humanist » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:23 am
iceman said
Iceman that is a well known fact..... personally I know of friends of my parents from Zodia (one of the Zodias anyway). Their sister visted their village an went to their home the TC's living in the house returned wedding pictures and some other belongings, which in turn they oicked up when they visisted Cyprus last year.
However, they refuse to go to visit their home, and have actually said that if there was a solution they would not return back, because they see that their time to enjoy their newly build home has passed. I guess that is an individual thing
Deniz
Did you know that most of the TC's who were relocated in GC houses in 1974 kept the personal belongings they found in the houses (photos/diplomas and even jewelery) with the hope of returning it back to their owners one day.
I know many stories of GC's visiting their houses when the checkpoints opened in 2003 to find their photos still hanging on the walls..
Our house belonged to a GC married to a dutch lady (this i know from diplomas and newspaper cuttings because she was an athlete back in Netherlands and she had saved newspaper cuttings in albums)
We stored a suitcase full of personal belongings and after many years,with the help of some Dutch friends i tried to track down this lady or her family in Netherlands to hand back these personal possesions..But couldnt find her trace.
Eventually,we handed back these belongings to her when she came to visit her house in 2003...
Very emotional moments...she burst into tears when we handed her the suitcase because she had no idea we would value them enough to save with the hope of returning back one day..
Iceman that is a well known fact..... personally I know of friends of my parents from Zodia (one of the Zodias anyway). Their sister visted their village an went to their home the TC's living in the house returned wedding pictures and some other belongings, which in turn they oicked up when they visisted Cyprus last year.
However, they refuse to go to visit their home, and have actually said that if there was a solution they would not return back, because they see that their time to enjoy their newly build home has passed. I guess that is an individual thing
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by bigOz » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:34 pm
Pyrpolizer wrote:BigOZ,
Populations were never exchanged!! That's a propaganda coming from Denktash . Read the 3rd Vienna agreement.
Pyrpoliser! Are you seriously claiming you are totally unaware of the "Population Exchange Agreement" signed on 2 August 1975 between Clerides and Denktash?
(also recorded as UN Document S/11789)
Also see BBCNews24 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1021835.stm
"1975 - Turkish Cypriots establish independent administration, with Rauf Denktash as president. Denktash and Clerides agree population exchange."
This allowed all GCs to stay in the North if they wished to, guaranteeing their safety and the same for the TCs in the South. It was also agreed that all those who wished to move to Noth/South could do so on their own free will...
There are other media sources that can confirm this agreement - so I really do not see how one can claim this was a "propaganda coming from Denktash"!
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by Kifeas » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:54 pm
bigOz wrote:Pyrpolizer wrote:BigOZ,
Populations were never exchanged!! That's a propaganda coming from Denktash . Read the 3rd Vienna agreement.
Pyrpoliser! Are you seriously claiming you are totally unaware of the "Population Exchange Agreement" signed on 2 August 1975 between Clerides and Denktash?
(also recorded as UN Document S/11789)
Also see BBCNews24 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1021835.stm
"1975 - Turkish Cypriots establish independent administration, with Rauf Denktash as president. Denktash and Clerides agree population exchange."
This allowed all GCs to stay in the North if they wished to, guaranteeing their safety and the same for the TCs in the South. It was also agreed that all those who wished to move to Noth/South could do so on their own free will...
There are other media sources that can confirm this agreement - so I really do not see how one can claim this was a "propaganda coming from Denktash"!
What a joke!
No you “mother of all propaganda,” there was no (never) such a "population exchange agreement!" The "3rd Vienna agreement" doesn't mention even once the word "exchange" in either its title or in its content! The agreement was signed in August 1975, one year after the 1974 Turkish invasion and the forceful expulsion of the vast majority of the GC inhabitants of the occupied north, with the exception of only about 20,000 GCs that were cut off in the Karpas peninsula.
The agreement only referred to the TCs permanently living in the south, and those cut off GCs in the Karpas! Only! It was agreed that if the TCs would wish to voluntary move from the south into the occupied north, not to be stopped or prohibited by the GCs to do so; and if the GCs in the Karpas wished to stay in the north, not to be expelled by the Turkish authorities /troops to the south (like it happened to the other already expelled majority of GCs from the rest of the occupied areas in 1974!) Is this a population exchange agreement? Only an imbecile would have had the nerve to claim such a thing! Regardless, the GC side kept its promise and did not prohibit the TCs to move north, while the Turkish side did not do so! As a result, all 20,000 GCs that stayed behind in Karpas were forced slowly-slowly to live, (there is a CoE report verifying this fact,) and now only about 300 people have remained there!
The 180,000 GC indigenous inhabitants of the north were ethnically cleansed already one year before, in 1974! They were never the product of any "population exchange agreement," and there is absolutely no mention or reference to them in the “3rd Vienna agreement” of 1975! The 3rd Vienna agreement refers only to the GCs in the Karpas peninsula (20,000 people,) which were not to be exchanged (move out,) but only to be facilitated to stay (something the Turkish side did not honour!)
Last edited by Kifeas on Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Pyrpolizer » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:58 pm
denizaksulu wrote:Pyrpolizer wrote:I don't remember who said it (Deniz or BigOz I think), but it is TRUE that there were many rich TC land owners before 1974. Just for the information of the forum the richest plowmen before 1974 were not the GC plowmen of Morphou but the TC plowmen of the Paphos and West Limassol districts.
It is very rare to hear such TRUTHS in this forum coming from TC members. All we hear is for those TCs who were indeed living in terrible conditions at poverty levels in the enclaves.
Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.The TCs traditionally owned most of the good lands by the water (he,he,he priveledges from the ottoman times
Yeap they were always known as big "chiftlikades"/big land owners if you allow me this term from the cyprus village language.
Is it so hard to believe that rich TC landowners also had to move to enclaves?
Regards
DA
Like it or not only 25,000 TCs ever moved during the 60s so that's 1 out of 5.
Like I said the ones I ever met were not living in enclaves.
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by Pyrpolizer » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:13 pm
BigOz,
You just manged to convince me BBC is not what it used to be.
This is the 3rd Vienna Agreement which your propaganda machinery advertises as "population exchange agreement".
What happened is the 50,000 TCs who stayed in the south were mostly women children and elder, the TC men all joined the invading Turkish forces and hence stayed in the northern part. So we had separation of families. It was just a humanitarian agreement for those families and the 20,000 GC families that were trapped in Karpas. Perhaps you don't even know what a population exchange agreement is?
The Third Vienna Agreement - August 1975
Communique issued after the third phase of the intercommunal talks in Vienna
The third round of talks on Cyprus was held in Vienna from 31 July to 2 August 1975.
Preliminary discussions were held on the powers and functions of a federal government on the basis of the original Greek Cypriot proposals submitted at the first round, the Turkish Cypriot paper of the 21st of July and the more comprehensive paper presented by Mr. Clerides at this meeting. Further examination of this subject will continue in Nicosia with a view to a final discussion, together with the other aspects relating to the solution of the Cyprus problem, at the next round of talks. Mr. Denktash expressed his views on the comprehensive paper submitted by Mr. Clerides and also on his own proposals for a transitional joint government submitted by him on 18 July. Mr. Clerides referred to his previous position in this regard.
A discussion of the geographical aspects of a future settlement of the Cyprus problem took place. It was agreed that Mr. Clerides and Mr. Denktash would have further private talks on this subject prior to the fourth round of the Cyprus talks with a view to preparing the discussion of this matter which will take place at that time.
In addition the following was agreed:
1. The Turkish Cypriots at present in the South of the Island will be allowed, if they want to do so, to proceed North with their belongings under an organized programme and with the assistance of UNFICYP.
2. Mr. Denktash reaffirmed, and it was agreed, that the Greek Cypriots at present in the North of the Island are free to stay and that they will be given every help to lead a normal life, including facilities for education and for the practice of their religion, as well as medical care by their own doctors and freedom of movement in the North.
3. The Greek Cypriots at present in the North who, at their own request and without having been subjected to any kind of pressure, wish to move to the South will be permitted to do so.
4. UNFICYP will have free and normal access to Greek Cypriot villages and habitations in the North.
5. In connection with the implementation of the above agreement priority will be given to the re-unification of families, which may also involve the transfer of a number of Greek Cypriots, at present in the South, to the North.
The question of displaced persons was also re-examined.
Although both sides again affirmed that they were not knowingly holding undeclared prisoners-of-war or other detainees, it was agreed mutually to extend full facilities for searches in response to information given by either side.
Both sides declared that the Nicosia International Airport, which has been repaired by the United Nations under the agreement reached at the first round, can be used, as a first step, by the United Nations for its needs.
The fourth round of talks will take place, due to the Secretary General’s commitments in regard to the General Assembly, at United Nations headquarters in New York on 8 and 9 September 1975.
2 August, 1975
You just manged to convince me BBC is not what it used to be.
This is the 3rd Vienna Agreement which your propaganda machinery advertises as "population exchange agreement".
What happened is the 50,000 TCs who stayed in the south were mostly women children and elder, the TC men all joined the invading Turkish forces and hence stayed in the northern part. So we had separation of families. It was just a humanitarian agreement for those families and the 20,000 GC families that were trapped in Karpas. Perhaps you don't even know what a population exchange agreement is?
The Third Vienna Agreement - August 1975
Communique issued after the third phase of the intercommunal talks in Vienna
The third round of talks on Cyprus was held in Vienna from 31 July to 2 August 1975.
Preliminary discussions were held on the powers and functions of a federal government on the basis of the original Greek Cypriot proposals submitted at the first round, the Turkish Cypriot paper of the 21st of July and the more comprehensive paper presented by Mr. Clerides at this meeting. Further examination of this subject will continue in Nicosia with a view to a final discussion, together with the other aspects relating to the solution of the Cyprus problem, at the next round of talks. Mr. Denktash expressed his views on the comprehensive paper submitted by Mr. Clerides and also on his own proposals for a transitional joint government submitted by him on 18 July. Mr. Clerides referred to his previous position in this regard.
A discussion of the geographical aspects of a future settlement of the Cyprus problem took place. It was agreed that Mr. Clerides and Mr. Denktash would have further private talks on this subject prior to the fourth round of the Cyprus talks with a view to preparing the discussion of this matter which will take place at that time.
In addition the following was agreed:
1. The Turkish Cypriots at present in the South of the Island will be allowed, if they want to do so, to proceed North with their belongings under an organized programme and with the assistance of UNFICYP.
2. Mr. Denktash reaffirmed, and it was agreed, that the Greek Cypriots at present in the North of the Island are free to stay and that they will be given every help to lead a normal life, including facilities for education and for the practice of their religion, as well as medical care by their own doctors and freedom of movement in the North.
3. The Greek Cypriots at present in the North who, at their own request and without having been subjected to any kind of pressure, wish to move to the South will be permitted to do so.
4. UNFICYP will have free and normal access to Greek Cypriot villages and habitations in the North.
5. In connection with the implementation of the above agreement priority will be given to the re-unification of families, which may also involve the transfer of a number of Greek Cypriots, at present in the South, to the North.
The question of displaced persons was also re-examined.
Although both sides again affirmed that they were not knowingly holding undeclared prisoners-of-war or other detainees, it was agreed mutually to extend full facilities for searches in response to information given by either side.
Both sides declared that the Nicosia International Airport, which has been repaired by the United Nations under the agreement reached at the first round, can be used, as a first step, by the United Nations for its needs.
The fourth round of talks will take place, due to the Secretary General’s commitments in regard to the General Assembly, at United Nations headquarters in New York on 8 and 9 September 1975.
2 August, 1975
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by Pyrpolizer » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:33 pm
It's also important to notice who was behind that agreement.
Yes it was Clerides. The man who housed the coupists in his party. The coupists who organised everything in 1974 so that we end up with double Enosis in Cyprus, one part with Greece and another part with Turkey.The man who was working behind our backs for 10 years and brought us the Anan Plan, to finalise his long awaited target of double Enosis.
The man who's party until today works for double Enosis.
True after 1974 we had a humanitarian problem with those TC families.There were 2 ways to solve it, one of them was to allow the TC men to come back and guarantee their safety. But that would spoil Clerides plans for double Enosis of 2 ethnically cleansed regions....
Adding 50,000 TC refugees to the already 180,000 GC refugees was no problem for Clerides, after all it all looked so logical during those times...
What can I say, it took us so many years to uncover this snake.
And then he writes books and plays the Holy Virgin and everybody thinks he is moderate.
Yes it was Clerides. The man who housed the coupists in his party. The coupists who organised everything in 1974 so that we end up with double Enosis in Cyprus, one part with Greece and another part with Turkey.The man who was working behind our backs for 10 years and brought us the Anan Plan, to finalise his long awaited target of double Enosis.
The man who's party until today works for double Enosis.
True after 1974 we had a humanitarian problem with those TC families.There were 2 ways to solve it, one of them was to allow the TC men to come back and guarantee their safety. But that would spoil Clerides plans for double Enosis of 2 ethnically cleansed regions....
Adding 50,000 TC refugees to the already 180,000 GC refugees was no problem for Clerides, after all it all looked so logical during those times...
What can I say, it took us so many years to uncover this snake.
And then he writes books and plays the Holy Virgin and everybody thinks he is moderate.
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by Pyrpolizer » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:50 pm
Btw bigOZ don't get me wrong, I only pointed the part in your post that refered to the population exchange agreement as wrong. The rest of your post was mostly superb, excellent analysis.
There were very good parts in posts from DA as well, and I am glad VP and humanist seem to understand each other so well.
In here we tend to just fight for some parts of posts we disagree, and we usually avoid praising the good parts that are enlightening/infomative and true.
I hope this sets the picture right.
There were very good parts in posts from DA as well, and I am glad VP and humanist seem to understand each other so well.
In here we tend to just fight for some parts of posts we disagree, and we usually avoid praising the good parts that are enlightening/infomative and true.
I hope this sets the picture right.
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by denizaksulu » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:50 pm
[quote="Pyrpolizer"][quote="denizaksulu"][quote="Pyrpolizer"]I don't remember who said it (Deniz or BigOz I think), but it is TRUE that there were many rich TC land owners before 1974. Just for the information of the forum the richest plowmen before 1974 were not the GC plowmen of Morphou but the TC plowmen of the Paphos and West Limassol districts.
It is very rare to hear such TRUTHS in this forum coming from TC members. All we hear is for those TCs who were indeed living in terrible conditions at poverty levels in the enclaves.
Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.The TCs traditionally owned most of the good lands by the water (he,he,he priveledges from the ottoman times
Yeap they were always known as big "chiftlikades"/big land owners if you allow me this term from the cyprus village language. [/quote]
Is it so hard to believe that rich TC landowners also had to move to enclaves?
Regards
DA[/quote]
Like it or not only 25,000 TCs ever moved during the 60s so that's 1 out of 5.
Like I said the ones I ever met were not living in enclaves.[/quote]
Well Pyro, you met the 'wrong' kind of people I guess.
Regards
DA
It is very rare to hear such TRUTHS in this forum coming from TC members. All we hear is for those TCs who were indeed living in terrible conditions at poverty levels in the enclaves.
Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.The TCs traditionally owned most of the good lands by the water (he,he,he priveledges from the ottoman times
Yeap they were always known as big "chiftlikades"/big land owners if you allow me this term from the cyprus village language.
[/quote]
Is it so hard to believe that rich TC landowners also had to move to enclaves?
Regards
DA[/quote]
Like it or not only 25,000 TCs ever moved during the 60s so that's 1 out of 5.
Like I said the ones I ever met were not living in enclaves.[/quote]
Well Pyro, you met the 'wrong' kind of people I guess.
Regards
DA
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