Cyprus-Forum.com

[iceman]

:) you never let up do ya? hey enjoy the baby, they are precious moments

I bet,he is also enjoying precious sleepless nights..

[denizaksulu]

[quote="Get Real!"]Good work Pyro.

The truth of the matter is that up to 1974 the TC community was generally very poor so once Turkey captured the northern part of Cyprus the TC's probably thought that all their financial problems would be solved now that they could pretty much walk into any refugee’s abandoned home and make it their own along with all its belongings!

I can imagine the frenzy of ransacking and looting that must have taken place once Turkey ended the hostilities and erected the border at the ceasefire line.

However, even if someone was to give you a “free” house, furniture, and car, it does not solve your day to day living requirements and this is where the infrastructure with its economy comes into play. Without this mechanism there is no life as the Turkish Cypriot community would have quickly found out and the excitement of “acquiring” someone else’s property would’ve swiftly worn off.

Do we have a "daring" TC member who lived through those initial weeks, months, and years, in the “TRNC” and is prepared to share those experiences with us?[/quote]

Hello Get Real; I have just come accross this thread: My anecdote: Immediately after the 1974 Coup I visited a cousin of mine who was a refugee from Kophinou. (He was also a prisoner during the Kophinou/Ay. Theodoros incidents with G. Grivas in 1967). As exchange for his property he was relocated in a lovely house, which from his library I deduced that the owner was a Medical doctor. I was perusing through his library and came accross a Greek/English Dictionary wich was printed in Contantinopolis. I asked if I could have it as a souveneir. He replied that No I could not , and that he was told if a single item went missing he would be shot by the army. The expectation was that the prevailing situation would revert to normal and that the Greek owners would come back. I was taken aback by his reply. I thought, "what a fine cousin I have here". I was also disappointed. As time went by the situation changed. They saw no hope of reconciliation and a stalemate occured. Many sold what they got and left Cyprus altogether. My cousin still has the house. Back south they were one of the richest in the area. Such is life. Now I am glad that I never managed to obtain that dictionary as I would be called a 'thief' by the likes of Piratis et Co. I would not have liked that. To date no member of my immediate family, including myself has received a single iota of anything from the GC refugees.
I am not saying that looting did not take place, but during the early stages it was very different. Looting and destruction began with the coming of the settlers who did have no use for chairas or tables. Tere content on sitting and eating on the floor . So all chairs and tables became firewood or had their legs chopped off.
Sickening.
regards
DA

[bigOz]

- Due to preferential treatment, some corrupt ministry officials allocated the Greek land to many who never left anything in the South, where as just as many who did leave a lot of property ended up with very little!

:

Is it to your understanding BigOz, as it was reported by a TC forum member "skipper", that Denktas senior was one of those who had gotten GC land far more land than he may ever have had in the South, by 30,000 Donüms. If true as reported and when leaders were getting more than their share, it is easy to understand why some never got anything, despite having land in the south, such as Turkish Cypriot's Auntie, who is having a hard time paying the rent, without very much assistance from the TC authorities and she is very bitter. There may be thousands of TC's in similar situation. The mistakes made I believe, was to give away any GC land to anyone in the first place, except only temporarily until solution was found and only enough to live and cultivate for food. To make matters worse, not only GC land was given away at 1 for 1 ratio to some and a lot more to others to what the TC's had in the South, in a so called "exchanged land" but were even issued titles under a different names from the original owners. So the question is being begged to be asked, and that is, "how can a settlement was in the minds of those who were orchastrating such manipulations of GC lands and expected an easy solution to be reached in 10, 20, 30 years later".?

I believe this is the question Pyro is asking, in my opinion.

I wish you'd stop putting wordfs into others mouths! What I wrote is absolutely clear to anyone of average intelligence, and there is no need to psycho-analyse or misdirect it!

If you were in Cyprus during 1974 you would have well understood why no one expected a quick solution in terms of years to come. Hence it is easy to question th evalidity of some actions 33 years later! Populations were exchanged with the blessing and approval of both Makarios and Denktash!. It was not "so called exchanged land" as you like to put it either! More than 90% of people got property or land in return for what they had left on the other side! We are not talking about individual cases whether how Makarios' Church ended up as the richest landlord in Cyprus or how Denktash's family made anything out of wars that persued. The names of individuals are irrelevant - what is relevant is that TCs (in general) did not find themselves wealthier in terms of land and property overnight (as was the claim in this thread). They were not poor peasants before 1964, and with the exception of Turkish administered enclaves in Nicosia and Paphos after the 1963 troubles (addressing around 10-15,000), TCs living in their villages and towns were just as wealthy as their GC counterparts!

We are talking about the TCs here - no need to allude to other things because it turns into a different argument which would no longer apply to this one. Of course I know the mistakes or wrongs done in land distribution during / after 1974, but I am not here to judge the individuals' actions, neither do I believe that their actions would have made any difference to not being able to find a solution to Cyprus problem today!

The equation is simple: Knowing the full history and developments of Cyprus over the past couple of decades, TCs felt insecure and threatened, lacking trust in GC leadership. Their communal and nationalistic feelings inevitably grew stronger, leaving them open to exploitation by anyone who would easily manipulate these weaknesses. It could have been Costas or Mehmet it really does not matter but it was bound to happen and it did.

The story afterwards is even more tragicomic! Between 1967 and 1974, GCs began to move more and more towards socialist values and away from nationalistic ones that made most of them (including Makarios) more tolerant and accepting of the TC existence as a partner community in Cyprus. I need not remind you that before the 1974 troubles started off by EOKA-B and the military CUNTA in Greece, GC side had opened all blockades and barricades allowing freedom of movement to TCs. This was an unofficial confirmation of the ongoing fact that the TCs were not offensive or the ones who would cause communal attacks!

During 1973-74 Denktash and Makarios were a stone throws away from finding a solution and agreeing on a united Cyprus. TCs and GCs traded with each other freely. The GCs had no worries about their TC counterparts, and any inter-communal war was as unlikely as today! Left wing AKEL was gaining popularity all the time and looked as the next ones to hold power in any RoC government. British bases were constantly bombed and sabotaged by Republicans who wanted them out. Relationships with USSR flourished, whilst relationships with USA took a sour note! THIS WAS NO GOOD for NATO, Europe and especially strong right wing CUNTA of Greece at the time. We all know what happened and why subsequently in 1974...

Now, take into consideration all the above and tell me if you think bringing the current Cyprus problem down to a simple; discussing land left behind and/or immoral wealth made by few individuals would be the way to go round solving the current issues. Many call TCs thieves and living in other people's homes and the same argument can be addressed to the other side who have pillaged the TC land/property left in the Greek side for the past 33 years! The average revenue per "donum" of a vineyard in Alektora back in 1974 was nearing £2000! There was/is more than 1000 donums of vineyards only in that small village occupied by 200 TCs! WHO HAS BEEN HARVESTING THE GRAPES AND SELLING THEM FOR THE PAST 33 YEARS? (it works out more than £66 million just for that little village!).

TCs had never been poor peasants who were a burden on RoC - unlike what many GCs after 1974 were taught to believe and find the will to claim as such now! I am fed up of people looking at things from a very narrow perspective and coming to quick conclusions - thinking they have found the long lost cause and the cure! On the contrary, it is this kind of narrow-mindednes that will secure permanent division of the island FOREVER!

[Kikapu]

- Due to preferential treatment, some corrupt ministry officials allocated the Greek land to many who never left anything in the South, where as just as many who did leave a lot of property ended up with very little!

:

Is it to your understanding BigOz, as it was reported by a TC forum member "skipper", that Denktas senior was one of those who had gotten GC land far more land than he may ever have had in the South, by 30,000 Donüms. If true as reported and when leaders were getting more than their share, it is easy to understand why some never got anything, despite having land in the south, such as Turkish Cypriot's Auntie, who is having a hard time paying the rent, without very much assistance from the TC authorities and she is very bitter. There may be thousands of TC's in similar situation. The mistakes made I believe, was to give away any GC land to anyone in the first place, except only temporarily until solution was found and only enough to live and cultivate for food. To make matters worse, not only GC land was given away at 1 for 1 ratio to some and a lot more to others to what the TC's had in the South, in a so called "exchanged land" but were even issued titles under a different names from the original owners. So the question is being begged to be asked, and that is, "how can a settlement was in the minds of those who were orchastrating such manipulations of GC lands and expected an easy solution to be reached in 10, 20, 30 years later".?

I believe this is the question Pyro is asking, in my opinion.

I wish you'd stop putting wordfs into others mouths! What I wrote is absolutely clear to anyone of average intelligence, and there is no need to psycho-analyse or misdirect it!

If you were in Cyprus during 1974 you would have well understood why no one expected a quick solution in terms of years to come. Hence it is easy to question th evalidity of some actions 33 years later! Populations were exchanged with the blessing and approval of both Makarios and Denktash!. It was not "so called exchanged land" as you like to put it either! More than 90% of people got property or land in return for what they had left on the other side! We are not talking about individual cases whether how Makarios' Church ended up as the richest landlord in Cyprus or how Denktash's family made anything out of wars that persued. The names of individuals are irrelevant - what is relevant is that TCs (in general) did not find themselves wealthier in terms of land and property overnight (as was the claim in this thread). They were not poor peasants before 1964, and with the exception of Turkish administered enclaves in Nicosia and Paphos after the 1963 troubles (addressing around 10-15,000), TCs living in their villages and towns were just as wealthy as their GC counterparts!

We are talking about the TCs here - no need to allude to other things because it turns into a different argument which would no longer apply to this one. Of course I know the mistakes or wrongs done in land distribution during / after 1974, but I am not here to judge the individuals' actions, neither do I believe that their actions would have made any difference to not being able to find a solution to Cyprus problem today!

The equation is simple: Knowing the full history and developments of Cyprus over the past couple of decades, TCs felt insecure and threatened, lacking trust in GC leadership. Their communal and nationalistic feelings inevitably grew stronger, leaving them open to exploitation by anyone who would easily manipulate these weaknesses. It could have been Costas or Mehmet it really does not matter but it was bound to happen and it did.

The story afterwards is even more tragicomic! Between 1967 and 1974, GCs began to move more and more towards socialist values and away from nationalistic ones that made most of them (including Makarios) more tolerant and accepting of the TC existence as a partner community in Cyprus. I need not remind you that before the 1974 troubles started off by EOKA-B and the military CUNTA in Greece, GC side had opened all blockades and barricades allowing freedom of movement to TCs. This was an unofficial confirmation of the ongoing fact that the TCs were not offensive or the ones who would cause communal attacks!

During 1973-74 Denktash and Makarios were a stone throws away from finding a solution and agreeing on a united Cyprus. TCs and GCs traded with each other freely. The GCs had no worries about their TC counterparts, and any inter-communal war was as unlikely as today! Left wing AKEL was gaining popularity all the time and looked as the next ones to hold power in any RoC government. British bases were constantly bombed and sabotaged by Republicans who wanted them out. Relationships with USSR flourished, whilst relationships with USA took a sour note! THIS WAS NO GOOD for NATO, Europe and especially strong right wing CUNTA of Greece at the time. We all know what happened and why subsequently in 1974...

Now, take into consideration all the above and tell me if you think bringing the current Cyprus problem down to a simple; discussing land left behind and/or immoral wealth made by few individuals would be the way to go round solving the current issues. Many call TCs thieves and living in other people's homes and the same argument can be addressed to the other side who have pillaged the TC land/property left in the Greek side for the past 33 years! The average revenue per "donum" of a vineyard in Alektora back in 1974 was nearing £2000! There was/is more than 1000 donums of vineyards only in that small village occupied by 200 TCs! WHO HAS BEEN HARVESTING THE GRAPES AND SELLING THEM FOR THE PAST 33 YEARS? (it works out more than £66 million just for that little village!).

TCs had never been poor peasants who were a burden on RoC - unlike what many GCs after 1974 were taught to believe and find the will to claim as such now! I am fed up of people looking at things from a very narrow perspective and coming to quick conclusions - thinking they have found the long lost cause and the cure! On the contrary, it is this kind of narrow-mindednes that will secure permanent division of the island FOREVER!

I'm not trying to put any words in anyone's mouth. I was only answering or commenting on the specific quote from you above, as to how some people got more than their share of land through some corrupt officials, that's all.

I have written about this before, that today, the TC land in the South is worth much more than any land they may have received in the North against it. So my comments had nothing to do with TC's getting rich of the GC's land, except for those who got "absolute free land" for not having left any land in the South, such as the settlers. I was only concentrating more on Pyro's question regarding "when did the TC's wanted a solution since 1974-2004" rather than "TC's getting rich of GC land". As I said before, Donüm for Donüm, TC land in the South is worth more than what they have in the North now, so from financial point of view, TC's would be better off to re-claim their land in the South and return GC land in the North, if it wasn't for the fact, some of the GC land is now in the hands of foreigners..

This would all change of course, if and when there were to be a recognised TC state in the North, which would cause the land prices to skyrocket in the North.

As for the rest of your comments regarding that property is not the only thing on the minds of the TC's but security and trust, I totally agree with you. We are in a multi complex situation and all issues need to be addressed and if people calling TC's thieves for living in a house that belongs to a GC, than that is wrong, since they are caught in the middle of this political struggle. I believe those that are called names as thieves, are the ones who may be profiting from the political instability..

[iceman]

Good work Pyro.

The truth of the matter is that up to 1974 the TC community was generally very poor so once Turkey captured the northern part of Cyprus the TC's probably thought that all their financial problems would be solved now that they could pretty much walk into any refugee’s abandoned home and make it their own along with all its belongings!

I can imagine the frenzy of ransacking and looting that must have taken place once Turkey ended the hostilities and erected the border at the ceasefire line.

However, even if someone was to give you a “free” house, furniture, and car, it does not solve your day to day living requirements and this is where the infrastructure with its economy comes into play. Without this mechanism there is no life as the Turkish Cypriot community would have quickly found out and the excitement of “acquiring” someone else’s property would’ve swiftly worn off.

Do we have a "daring" TC member who lived through those initial weeks, months, and years, in the “TRNC” and is prepared to share those experiences with us?

Hello Get Real; I have just come accross this thread: My anecdote: Immediately after the 1974 Coup I visited a cousin of mine who was a refugee from Kophinou. (He was also a prisoner during the Kophinou/Ay. Theodoros incidents with G. Grivas in 1967). As exchange for his property he was relocated in a lovely house, which from his library I deduced that the owner was a Medical doctor. I was perusing through his library and came accross a Greek/English Dictionary wich was printed in Contantinopolis. I asked if I could have it as a souveneir. He replied that No I could not , and that he was told if a single item went missing he would be shot by the army. The expectation was that the prevailing situation would revert to normal and that the Greek owners would come back. I was taken aback by his reply. I thought, "what a fine cousin I have here". I was also disappointed. As time went by the situation changed. They saw no hope of reconciliation and a stalemate occured. Many sold what they got and left Cyprus altogether. My cousin still has the house. Back south they were one of the richest in the area. Such is life. Now I am glad that I never managed to obtain that dictionary as I would be called a 'thief' by the likes of Piratis et Co. I would not have liked that. To date no member of my immediate family, including myself has received a single iota of anything from the GC refugees.
I am not saying that looting did not take place, but during the early stages it was very different. Looting and destruction began with the coming of the settlers who did have no use for chairas or tables. Tere content on sitting and eating on the floor . So all chairs and tables became firewood or had their legs chopped off.
Sickening.
regards
DA

Deniz
Did you know that most of the TC's who were relocated in GC houses in 1974 kept the personal belongings they found in the houses (photos/diplomas and even jewelery) with the hope of returning it back to their owners one day.

I know many stories of GC's visiting their houses when the checkpoints opened in 2003 to find their photos still hanging on the walls..

Our house belonged to a GC married to a dutch lady (this i know from diplomas and newspaper cuttings because she was an athlete back in Netherlands and she had saved newspaper cuttings in albums)
We stored a suitcase full of personal belongings and after many years,with the help of some Dutch friends i tried to track down this lady or her family in Netherlands to hand back these personal possesions..But couldnt find her trace.
Eventually,we handed back these belongings to her when she came to visit her house in 2003...
Very emotional moments...she burst into tears when we handed her the suitcase because she had no idea we would value them enough to save with the hope of returning back one day..

[denizaksulu]

[quote="iceman"][quote="denizaksulu"][quote="Get Real!"]Good work Pyro.

The truth of the matter is that up to 1974 the TC community was generally very poor so once Turkey captured the northern part of Cyprus the TC's probably thought that all their financial problems would be solved now that they could pretty much walk into any refugee’s abandoned home and make it their own along with all its belongings!

I can imagine the frenzy of ransacking and looting that must have taken place once Turkey ended the hostilities and erected the border at the ceasefire line.

However, even if someone was to give you a “free” house, furniture, and car, it does not solve your day to day living requirements and this is where the infrastructure with its economy comes into play. Without this mechanism there is no life as the Turkish Cypriot community would have quickly found out and the excitement of “acquiring” someone else’s property would’ve swiftly worn off.

Do we have a "daring" TC member who lived through those initial weeks, months, and years, in the “TRNC” and is prepared to share those experiences with us?[/quote]

Hello Get Real; I have just come accross this thread: My anecdote: Immediately after the 1974 Coup I visited a cousin of mine who was a refugee from Kophinou. (He was also a prisoner during the Kophinou/Ay. Theodoros incidents with G. Grivas in 1967). As exchange for his property he was relocated in a lovely house, which from his library I deduced that the owner was a Medical doctor. I was perusing through his library and came accross a Greek/English Dictionary wich was printed in Contantinopolis. I asked if I could have it as a souveneir. He replied that No I could not , and that he was told if a single item went missing he would be shot by the army. The expectation was that the prevailing situation would revert to normal and that the Greek owners would come back. I was taken aback by his reply. I thought, "what a fine cousin I have here". I was also disappointed. As time went by the situation changed. They saw no hope of reconciliation and a stalemate occured. Many sold what they got and left Cyprus altogether. My cousin still has the house. Back south they were one of the richest in the area. Such is life. Now I am glad that I never managed to obtain that dictionary as I would be called a 'thief' by the likes of Piratis et Co. I would not have liked that. To date no member of my immediate family, including myself has received a single iota of anything from the GC refugees.
I am not saying that looting did not take place, but during the early stages it was very different. Looting and destruction began with the coming of the settlers who did have no use for chairas or tables. Tere content on sitting and eating on the floor . So all chairs and tables became firewood or had their legs chopped off.
Sickening.
regards
DA[/quote]

Deniz
Did you know that most of the TC's who were relocated in GC houses in 1974 kept the personal belongings they found in the houses (photos/diplomas and even jewelery) with the hope of returning it back to their owners one day.

I know many stories of GC's visiting their houses when the checkpoints opened in 2003 to find their photos still hanging on the walls..

Our house belonged to a GC married to a dutch lady (this i know from diplomas and newspaper cuttings because she was an athlete back in Netherlands and she had saved newspaper cuttings in albums)
We stored a suitcase full of personal belongings and after many years,with the help of some Dutch friends i tried to track down this lady or her family in Netherlands to hand back these personal possesions..But couldnt find her trace.
Eventually,we handed back these belongings to her when she came to visit her house in 2003...
Very emotional moments...she burst into tears when we handed her the suitcase because she had no idea we would value them enough to save with the hope of returning back one day..[/quote]

Hello Iceman, that is exactly what I was talking about. I am sure some have kept the mentioned items, but some must have got on with their lives. My point in mypost was that there was every reason they believed things would return to 'normal'.
Regards
DA

[iceman]

Hello Iceman, that is exactly what I was talking about. I am sure some have kept the mentioned items, but some must have got on with their lives. My point in mypost was that there was every reason they believed things would return to 'normal'.

Thats right...most people kept that belief for many years after 1974..
It is not easy being a refugee and moving to another location,leaving your LIFE behind and being expected to "get on" as nothing happened..Only those who went through this know what i mean...

[denizaksulu]

[quote="iceman"][quote="denizaksulu"]
Hello Iceman, that is exactly what I was talking about. I am sure some have kept the mentioned items, but some must have got on with their lives. My point in mypost was that there was every reason they believed things would return to 'normal'.
[/quote]

Thats right...most people kept that belief for many years after 1974..
It is not easy being a refugee and moving to another location,leaving your LIFE behind and being expected to "get on" as nothing happened..Only those who went through this know what i mean...[/quote]


Yes Iceman, and to those who say us TCs are heartless, ruthless, thieves looters etc I have only one thing to say. get real. (no not him, I used the lower key)
Regards
DA

[Pyrpolizer]

I don't remember who said it (Deniz or BigOz I think), but it is TRUE that there were many rich TC land owners before 1974. Just for the information of the forum the richest plowmen before 1974 were not the GC plowmen of Morphou but the TC plowmen of the Paphos and West Limassol districts.
It is very rare to hear such TRUTHS in this forum coming from TC members. All we hear is for those TCs who were indeed living in terrible conditions at poverty levels in the enclaves.

Kikapu might be right also in saying donum for donum the TC land was more expensive.The TCs traditionally owned most of the good lands by the water (he,he,he priveledges from the ottoman times
Yeap they were always known as big "chiftlikades"/big land owners if you allow me this term from the cyprus village language.

[halil]

bigOz wrote

TCs are talking safety, security and trust...........

You hit the nail right on the head there bigOz, this is a view held by the vast majority of TC's. both in Cyprus and abroad.

bingo !!!!!