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[DT.]

DT.

I appreciate your criticism mentioned above but can't help noticing the entire blameless attitude against people that freely spread hate-mongering between the 2 communities...that FREAKED out when a proposed meeting between tc's and gc's was to be had...a person who insists that WHOEVER is leader on our side (these are his words now) he wants to live in a country where his children will not hear any greek spoken.

Are you referring to me? would you like to live in a country where Turkish is spoken in daily life at the butchers, in local government buildings, just like you were living in Turkey but in fact you are in a country you call your own.

vp, thats fine if not for one small point. Cyprus isn't turkish.

Exactly, nor is it Greek so why should I be forced to live in a society where a visit to the water board woudl be a nightmare as the people would all be GCs and speak Greek....If ı wanted to hear Engish around me all the time I would have stayed in the UK. Do you get my point at all?

its a cypriot nation VP whatever the solution you will always live with tcs and gcs in cyprus. Due to the numbers unfortunately for you, you will bump into greek a lot more.

I acknowledge this but like 65% of my community support a 2 state BBF solution whereby I can have the option to live in a TC administered state where Turkish is the predominant language and TCs are in charge and run their own state.

In a federation VP you can live in a TC preminant state but you must keep in mind a few things.
1) The federal state govt and constitution supercedes the constituent states.
2) You will hear the dreaded Greek even in the TC constituent state
3) The official languages of your country will be Greek, Turkish and English.
4) The TC state might not remain predminantly TC for ever. population ratios will change and the GC's being numerically superior might spread out everywhere.

[humanist]

VP thank you for your post, my previous post was not written in anger at all, that is merely your interpretation. I was not angry what sover and infact I thought about very carefully. I would like to hear from you what you think I was being dismissive about please. I hope to learn. Yes I did respond with a question to your question because you appear to always blame the RoC for the delays and not once have you made Talat accountable for the many times he has deayed the process.

As far as your above post I cannot understand the difference,

Perhaps I am naive to think that we are all human beings and regardless of our language or religious background we are one in the same. I cannot see the difference between a greek/ turkish/ armenian/maronite/latin/english cypriot. if it were up to me I would say all turkish speaking cypriots to their lands all armenians/ maronties to theirs and english to their lets put in process legislation to ensure that no Cypriot is discriminated against. I would say let us create an educational and social system that encourages difference rather than making difference into a problem. I have said many times that I don't really care what you speak or beieve Iam happy too and I can live next door to you.

I recognise that perhaps men my grandfathers age have perpetrated violence on the greek speakers of our country similarly the greek speakers toward turkish speakers however, your children (if you have any) have done nothing to me and I am not going to hold them responsible for what their grandfathers may or may not have done to my grandparents or parents.

[humanist]

VP thank you for your post, my previous post was not written in anger at all, that is merely your interpretation. I was not angry what sover and infact I thought about very carefully. I would like to hear from you what you think I was being dismissive about please. I hope to learn. Yes I did respond with a question to your question because you appear to always blame the RoC for the delays and not once have you made Talat accountable for the many times he has deayed the process. I am not laying blame like you are VP I am merely saying lets us all take responsibility to slove the problem if that is what we want. If we are the partners your claim to be then lay blame on your leader where due and I will lay blame on mine and hopefully the pressure will get them to talk.


As far as your above post I cannot understand the difference,

Perhaps I am naive to think that we are all human beings and regardless of our language or religious background we are one in the same. I cannot see the difference between a greek/ turkish/ armenian/maronite/latin/english cypriot. if it were up to me I would say all turkish speaking cypriots to their lands all armenians/ maronties to theirs and english to their lets put in process legislation to ensure that no Cypriot is discriminated against. I would say let us create an educational and social system that encourages difference rather than making difference into a problem. I have said many times that I don't really care what you speak or beieve Iam happy too and I can live next door to you.

I recognise that perhaps men my grandfathers age have perpetrated violence on the greek speakers of our country similarly the greek speakers toward turkish speakers however, your children (if you have any) have done nothing to me and I am not going to hold them responsible for what their grandfathers may or may not have done to my grandparents or parents



Sorry people dunno what happened there

[iceman]

I recognise that perhaps men my grandfathers age have perpetrated violence on the greek speakers of our country similarly the greek speakers toward turkish speakers however, your children (if you have any) have done nothing to me and I am not going to hold them responsible for what their grandfathers may or may not have done to my grandparents or parents.

Andreas
Your above comment is the key to lasting peace and cooperation on our island and i agree with you..

[Viewpoint]

humanist

VP thank you for your post, my previous post was not written in anger at all, that is merely your interpretation. I was not angry what sover and infact I thought about very carefully. I would like to hear from you what you think I was being dismissive about please. I hope to learn.

Your attitude against my fears and concerns being repetative appears from this side of the screen to be dismissive, you have to understand that these will not change unless they are addressed and the only way I can get anyone to understand and appreciate them is to be consistent.

Yes I did respond with a question to your question because you appear to always blame the RoC for the delays and not once have you made Talat accountable for the many times he has deayed the process.

You appear to miss out when I criticise the TRNC, the bridge fiasco being one occasion when I spoke out about how stupid our side had been. I would like to say that GC claim they make their own decisions and are not influenced by the international community then surely you must understand that Papadop with such a free hand must be more proactive as Talat has far more restrictions in place and cannot get free of these unless he is given a helping hand which the "RoC" is refusing to do due to their own intransigence. They have to encourage policies that will bring TCs closer to the "RoC" and reflect the benefits of a united Cyprus over what we have today.

Perhaps I am naive to think that we are all human beings and regardless of our language or religious background we are one in the same. I cannot see the difference between a greek/ turkish/ armenian/maronite/latin/english cypriot. if it were up to me I would say all turkish speaking cypriots to their lands all armenians/ maronties to theirs and english to their lets put in process legislation to ensure that no Cypriot is discriminated against. I would say let us create an educational and social system that encourages difference rather than making difference into a problem. I have said many times that I don't really care what you speak or beieve Iam happy too and I can live next door to you.

The answer is the difference between individual rights and community rights, add to this the 1960 agreements and you will get a better picture of what I am saying. On a 121 basis people are fine ask them to share power and the shit hits the fan.

I recognise that perhaps men my grandfathers age have perpetrated violence on the greek speakers of our country similarly the greek speakers toward turkish speakers however, your children (if you have any) have done nothing to me and I am not going to hold them responsible for what their grandfathers may or may not have done to my grandparents or parents.

I think you need to ask Piratis this question as it is people like him to attribute blame according to the number of deaths and crimes committed from as far back as the Ottoman empire.

[Viewpoint]

DT.

I appreciate your criticism mentioned above but can't help noticing the entire blameless attitude against people that freely spread hate-mongering between the 2 communities...that FREAKED out when a proposed meeting between tc's and gc's was to be had...a person who insists that WHOEVER is leader on our side (these are his words now) he wants to live in a country where his children will not hear any greek spoken.

Are you referring to me? would you like to live in a country where Turkish is spoken in daily life at the butchers, in local government buildings, just like you were living in Turkey but in fact you are in a country you call your own.

vp, thats fine if not for one small point. Cyprus isn't turkish.

Exactly, nor is it Greek so why should I be forced to live in a society where a visit to the water board woudl be a nightmare as the people would all be GCs and speak Greek....If ı wanted to hear Engish around me all the time I would have stayed in the UK. Do you get my point at all?

its a cypriot nation VP whatever the solution you will always live with tcs and gcs in cyprus. Due to the numbers unfortunately for you, you will bump into greek a lot more.

I acknowledge this but like 65% of my community support a 2 state BBF solution whereby I can have the option to live in a TC administered state where Turkish is the predominant language and TCs are in charge and run their own state.

In a federation VP you can live in a TC preminant state but you must keep in mind a few things.
1) The federal state govt and constitution supercedes the constituent states.
2) You will hear the dreaded Greek even in the TC constituent state
3) The official languages of your country will be Greek, Turkish and English.
4) The TC state might not remain predminantly TC for ever. population ratios will change and the GC's being numerically superior might spread out everywhere.

DT you are right in many aspects but time will hopefully bring trust, understanding and prosperity to all but in the meantime we need safeguards to ensure things run smoothly and no one tries to force their will on the other community due to their numerical majority.

[halil]

There was no Cyprus Problem for the TCs from 1974-2000......... whoever said these words i don't agree with them.There was always cyprus problem for the TCs since 1878 !!!!!!

[humanist]

VP thank you for returning the post. I am not as good as you are in breaking up postings to sentence by sentence and addressing each individual post.

I am sorry I did miss your posts in relation to the bridge. Therefore I apologise for my coment that you do not hold the trnc responsible for their inactions.

Secondly, in relation to your fears I hear when you say that you do not wish to be dominated by a so called GC society. I guess what I am saying is that due to the number of TC's in Cyprus vs the number of GC's that is inevitable. I do not claim to have the answer to this, however what I am suggesting is that you have just as much right as any other Cypriot to similar rights and representation to share in all spheres of Cypriot life. Now for me this means that government policies and legislation ought to reflect this and ofcourse put it into practice.

I am not sure what you mean about Papadopoulos helping the TC's at this stage, north and south in lack of a better word are enemies, how is it possible that he will help the TC's? I am trying to understand this really. The fact that Talat is not talking of unification but moves towards partition is not going to make Papadopoulos give an inch. Do you really think that the international communitydoes not have an impact on Papadopoulos political steps. I do not. The recent events to call a meeting is a perfect example of the pressure from EU to do so. And I say that is good otherwse we never see a progress. I guess from you I would like to hear what policies your are referring too.

In terms of sharing power I think that if the TC leadership agreed to returning to 1960's constitution there will be an agreement on that. I do believe that gave more parliamentary representation than the 18% of the population. Personally I would like to see an agreement on that with further changes to safeguard TC's. Kikapu I believe posted a reasonable BBF model on this very forum that I think will solve a lot of time and problems.

Anyway thank you again for posting a response I am trully trying to understand.

I am not sure how old you are VP, but I a 39 years, I was 6 years in 1974, my uncle was one of the missing he was just over 17 years when he went missing in 1974 and his remains were identified through DNA three or four years ago. My grandmother died without knowing whatever happened to him and my mother (his sister) lives with the pain that her mother never knew what happened to her son when she died. My parents immigrated to Australia because they did not wish us to go to the army.

My belief is that we are all human beings, if we so choose by changing our attitudes can live together in harmony and peace. My home is Cyprus and I would very much like to return. Fundamentally and perhaps because of my uncle I refuse to return and go to the army. I despise the whole notion of being taught to take another life. I would like to see a united Cyprus. I believe that if you are a good politician I will vote for you for Presidency regardles who you are, what colour you are what language you speak what religion you believe in.

I also do not believe in a separated Cyprus, not only it isn't right in that it happened in my lifetime but it is also unfair on all involved and it is too prety and too small to be divided. Based on tha we have two differing views.





Finally to iceman, thank you for your encouraging words on a previous post. It is wholeheartedly meant.

[Viewpoint]

humanist

Secondly, in relation to your fears I hear when you say that you do not wish to be dominated by a so called GC society. I guess what I am saying is that due to the number of TC's in Cyprus vs the number of GC's that is inevitable. I do not claim to have the answer to this, however what I am suggesting is that you have just as much right as any other Cypriot to similar rights and representation to share in all spheres of Cypriot life. Now for me this means that government policies and legislation ought to reflect this and ofcourse put it into practice.

Your acknowledgement is refreshing and gives me hope that we can find a system by which we can create a win win situation, but unfortunately people like you are very rare and the majority have their say which is not always right.

am not sure what you mean about Papadopoulos helping the TC's at this stage, north and south in lack of a better word are enemies, how is it possible that he will help the TC's? I am trying to understand this really. The fact that Talat is not talking of unification but moves towards partition is not going to make Papadopoulos give an inch. Do you really think that the international communitydoes not have an impact on Papadopoulos political steps. I do not. The recent events to call a meeting is a perfect example of the pressure from EU to do so. And I say that is good otherwse we never see a progress. I guess from you I would like to hear what policies your are referring too.

These policies are vital for providing and encouraging trust, understanding and cooperation...if nothing is done like the past 4+ years then the TCs will be more and more dependent on Turkey and therefore have no effective say in what you will face in future negotiations, Papadop has to take the bull by the horns and show the political maturity to provide TCs economic independence from Turkey, this can be done through increased border trade, direct flights and financial aid. Security measures and laws against racists attacks and discrimnation. If this chain is not broken then you will not have any influence or say in the North thus having irreversable effects which you will regret in the future.

In terms of sharing power I think that if the TC leadership agreed to returning to 1960's constitution there will be an agreement on that. I do believe that gave more parliamentary representation than the 18% of the population. Personally I would like to see an agreement on that with further changes to safeguard TC's. Kikapu I believe posted a reasonable BBF model on this very forum that I think will solve a lot of time and problems.

Going back to something that didnt work back then is not correct imo as what will ensure that it will go right this time, have we gone thorugh all these problems just to go back intime. We have the opportunity to create something new that will incorporate safeguards to ensure we do not repeat the mistakes of the past just like Kikapu and Kifeas suggested.

I am not sure how old you are VP, but I a 39 years, I was 6 years in 1974, my uncle was one of the missing he was just over 17 years when he went missing in 1974 and his remains were identified through DNA three or four years ago. My grandmother died without knowing whatever happened to him and my mother (his sister) lives with the pain that her mother never knew what happened to her son when she died. My parents immigrated to Australia because they did not wish us to go to the army.

I am very sorry to hear about your loss this is something which we all need to feel ashamed of and these deaths should not be manipulated or used for political gain. Where was your uncle found? Did the TCs kill him? I am 45 years born and educated in UK, I took a big step in my life when I decided to move permanently to the TRNC back in 1992 which I have not regretted for 1 minute. I feel like it is home and this environment has allowed me to raise my children in a setting where they will never be called a bloody foreigner or discriminated against for being different or being of a different ethnic origin.

My belief is that we are all human beings, if we so choose by changing our attitudes can live together in harmony and peace. My home is Cyprus and I would very much like to return. Fundamentally and perhaps because of my uncle I refuse to return and go to the army. I despise the whole notion of being taught to take another life. I would like to see a united Cyprus. I believe that if you are a good politician I will vote for you for Presidency regardless who you are, what colour you are what language you speak what religion you believe in.

People are people where ever you go there are bad and good ones, this is not the problem the problem is when you ask some one to rule your life or make decisions on your behalf, I do not want GCs to solely take decisions on my behalf as I do not currently trust or believe they have my best interests as heart but I do know that I have to share with GCs so they also have to accept that I have a say in my own future and that they will not be able to force me to do anything against my will or discriminate against me or my community.

[paliometoxo]

kifeas said

How "unfairly" or "discriminately" is an Armenian/Latin or Maronite treated in the ROC; and why is it a ROC run by "Greek speaking Cypriots" only, if all those communities that you mentioned have amble representation in all the levels, organs and instruments of the RoC?

Hi kifeas, firstly I want to say that I do not seriously believe that the armenian, maronite, latin brothers & sisters are treated with any disrespect although I would like to hear from them about this. Secondly I do believe that TC's are right in some of their coments about a greek cypriot state. I do sincerely believe that in order to be fair just equal and accepting the RoC does need to drop the notion of Greekness and Helenism.

I am sorry but the anthem is an insult to anyone who is not of greek so called heritage. Surely after so many thousands of years and with so many invasions Cyprus is not like Greece, greek speaking Cypriots are nothing like Greeks form Greeks. Cyprus econmoy is much much better than Greece's, so why this needs to identify as hellenic. Why are we holding onto the past so much. It is not a big deal to drop all that hellenic stuf in order to UNITE into a Cypriot state for all Cypriots.

An anthem that is not making reference to Greekness is not a big ask, not flying the Greek flag on public building is not a big ask. We only need to make these little changes for something greater to evolve.

Having been away from Cyprus for 25 years the last time I came being 2000 Cypus was nothing like when I left in 1981. Evolution is natural, we have more than one community and we need to change Cyprus to a Cypriot State that is home to all.

Having said this the same goes for Turkish speaking Cypriots, who are more staunch about being turks than greek speakers are about being greek

[/quote]

youmake a good point witht eh FLAGS and the anthem.... ok whata bout the turkish side who has flags in nicosia hanging off into our side.. what about the HUGE flags the turks insist on having that light up every night every 10 seconds?? when will them insults be removed?