Cyprus-Forum.com

[iceman]

alexISS
All i can say is you have been badly misinformed regarding Turkeys military power...

[oranos64]

has anyone seen a war recently fought with man power only ...i think not
also you are all talking dogs balls ....turkey and greece would never scrap ever again due to new military agreements ...
it is typical on this site to read so called " intellects " from turkey and greek cyps talk balls about wars .of which none of you know nor understand ..so leave us real combatants to debate

[oranos64]

turkey has a huge army ...but few real well trained soldiers ...this is a official NATO statement ....it can still beat greece hands down in an engagement ..simply because "turks are organised and united " greeks have never been even from ancient times ...that goes for cyps and helenics ...

[bigOz]

turkey has a huge army ...but few real well trained soldiers ...this is a official NATO statement ....it can still beat greece hands down in an engagement ..simply because "turks are organised and united " greeks have never been even from ancient times ...that goes for cyps and helenics ...

I agree with your previous post that Turkey and Greece would not go to war as from now, because both have covered a lot of political ground and sense since 20-40 years ago. They also both know that ensuing peace would benefit both nations economically. They also share a lot of culture and do not really have any reason to go to war, when they are trying to enable their citizens criss cross between the Western coast of Turkey and the Aegean islands as a tourist's playground.

Furthermore, the people living on the islands and the Aegean coast of Turkey have long got over the past wars, and would get on perfectly well with any visitors from Turkey or Greece! What pisses me off is people who constantly try and compare forces in the area and predict what Turkey might be capable of doing or not militarily. Turkey has no intentions of attacking any island in the Aegean or any aspirations of conquering Greece - so there is no reason to try and discredit the effectiveness of their military.

As for NATO's comment about Turkey's "well trained" military, they are referring to Turkey's NATO ground-forces who are the conscripts. What they do not talk about is the new independent Aegean Army built outside of NATO mainly consisting of SAT and amphibious commandos, after the embargoes of 1974. In terms of well trained military force, they still outnumber that of what Greece can currently offer.

I also believe you've been very unfair with your comment that "none" of us debating here know nothing about war or combat. Believe me some of us have done active service during various wars and do know what exactly is required. Contrary to what you claim, a strong ground force is the backbone of any military action. That is the exact reason why the Americans and the English (and the Russians before them) with all their might had not been able to win the war against Afghan rebels in Afghanistan and even in Iraq. They've been bombing the shit out of those for many years and look at what they have (not) achieved...

[alexISS]

I am sorry to have to say that you are living an illusion as so many of your compatriots do alexISS, because none of your allegations are correct! You are clearly misinformed by Greek propaganda machine. I assure you, if it came to it, Turkey has enough menpower to occupy all the main islands in the Aegean and still have enough airforrce navy and troops to fight Armenia and Syria at the same time!

Below please find the latest position with regards to the strength of the two military powers in question as quoted by GlobalFirePower.com / Breaking down the world's armies:

Yearly Military Expenditure
Turkey $12,155,000,000 Greece $5,890,000,000

Available Military Manpower
Turkey 16,756,323 ...... Greece 2,459,988

Total Military Personnel
Turkey 1,043,550 ..... Greece 179,800

Active Frontline Personnel
Turkey 514,850...... Greece 65,000

Aircraft
Turkey 1,964 ...... Greece 847

Armour
Turkey 7,165 ...... Greece 4,403

Infantry Support Systems
Turkey 9,631 ...... Greece 1,967

Navy Units
Turkey 182 ...... Greece 116

Major Ports
Turkey 8 ...... Greece 6

Arms Exports
Turkey $30,000,000 ...... Greece $NA

Arms Imports
Turkey $99,000,000 ...... Greece $16,000,000

Gold Reserves
Turkey $46,500,000,000 ...... Greece $2,300,000,000

Where is it do you see above that Greece is a bigger naval powerthan Turkey or her airforce is anything near the levels of the Turkish airforce? Perhaps you'll reconsider your previous statements now? [/list]

First of all, there is no Greek "propaganda machine" promoting war scenarios or giving false information on the military strength of Greece or Turkey, simply because the Greeks are not a war-loving nation and such information is of no interest to the public.

Note that I spoke of a scenario were Greece would be defending a Turkish attack and you similarly implied that Turkey's military force is developed in an offensive manner. That by itself says a lot.

As for the numbers you provided, check the following wikipedia link on the navy and airforce of both countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... med_forces

The greek navy IS superior to the Turkish one, not because of the naval units numbers (which by the way are different than the ones you provided, check the links) but mainly because of the natural advantage that the thousands of Greek islands give to the Greek navy.

Finally, Turkey has a total of 430 fighter aircrafts and Greece 305. Yes, the two airforces are more or less of equal might, simply because Greece can assign all of its airforce to the defence of the Aegean while Turkey cannot afford to do the same in the case it attacks the Greek islands.

Taking into consideration the very dense network of missile systems planted on many Greek islands, as well as the fact that an attacking force needs to be twice (or more) as big as the defending force to have chances of success, it seems quite impossible for Turkey to achieve anything than a brief capture of two or three Greek islands, at a great cost of resources.
In other words, the complex of 2,000 Aegean islands is simply impenetrable by Turkey.

I repeat that Greece's military buildup is clearly defensive, the same cannot be said about Turkey, don't you agree? Why is that do you think?

[Simon]

[quote]bigOz wrote:

I am sorry to have to say that you are living an illusion as so many of your compatriots do alexISS, because none of your allegations are correct! You are clearly misinformed by Greek propaganda machine. I assure you, if it came to it, Turkey has enough menpower to occupy all the main islands in the Aegean and still have enough airforrce navy and troops to fight Armenia and Syria at the same time!

Below please find the latest position with regards to the strength of the two military powers in question as quoted by GlobalFirePower.com / Breaking down the world's armies:
Quote:

Yearly Military Expenditure
Turkey $12,155,000,000 Greece $5,890,000,000
[/quote]



BigOz, these figures are out of date. The 2006 Military Expenditures were:
Turkey: $10.9 billion. Greece: $7.6 billion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... xpenditure


Therefore, the gap is not all that big, and when you consider that Turkey must equip, feed, train etc a far larger Military than Greece, it means, that in actual fact, Greece spends more per soldier than Turkey. (Not forgetting that Cyprus also spends around $384 million, which would take the total amount to around $8 billion).

[bigOz]

The information I provided you is from a more reliable link than Wikipedia who depend on public for their information. If you look at it, the top of alexISS link page clearly states:

The factual accuracy of this article is disputed.

Whereas what I referred you to is a site solely dedicated to data and information on worlds military forces. I suggest you check the links again!

You have not shown me anything that slightly implies the Greek navy is superior to the Turkish one. They have almost twice as many submarines and frigates. As for the islands you keep mentioning they are only as good as the naval bases present on them (if any) - can you tell me how many Greek islands in the Aegean have naval bases? What I can tell you is that Turkiye has more naval bases in the vicinity than Greece and islands with no firepower are of no significance during a conflict!

Can you show me where I said Turkey maintains her forces for an offensive purpose? I was replying to your earlier contention that having many islands in the Aegean would itself make Greece a hard nut to crack. You also started going off track talking about possible scenarios including what would happen if Turkey attacked Greece in Thrace and the geography of the area! Then you go on to claim no such propaganda exists - so where do you come up with these scenarios with and why?

As for Simon's comments - you are absolutely right about the military expenditure of Turkey going down considerably over the past 5-6 years. This is solely due to Turkiye's acquired capability to manufacture her own F-16s, war-ships, most modern heavy mortars, automatic rifles (NATO standard) and lately even submarines! It is not a sign of weakness but of growing strength.

Furthermore, since Greece joined the EU the cost of living had rocketed to far above to that in Turkiye. In other words, the same food and clothing you provide for each soldiers has doubled in terms of dollars, whereas in Turkiye it is probably still half the price!

The above said, I repeat again what I had said earlier - Turkey has no interest or intentions of attacking anyone in the area, least of all Greece. Her military is for defending the republic and its borders. The only exception to the rule is her ongoing interest in defending the security of TCs in Cyprus - something they always agreed to give up, once a settlement is reached by the two sides involved.

As things stand between Greece and Turkey, huge advances have been made to erase the tension between the two countries, and they no longer see each other as a serious military threat. Joint social activities and tourism between the two is also on the increase - so with no reasons what so ever for anyone to attack the other, I really do not see what it is we are discussing here!

[74LB]

The information I provided you is from a more reliable link than Wikipedia who depend on public for their information. If you look at it, the top of alexISS link page clearly states:

The factual accuracy of this article is disputed.

Whereas what I referred you to is a site solely dedicated to data and information on worlds military forces. I suggest you check the links again!

You have not shown me anything that slightly implies the Greek navy is superior to the Turkish one. They have almost twice as many submarines and frigates. As for the islands you keep mentioning they are only as good as the naval bases present on them (if any) - can you tell me how many Greek islands in the Aegean have naval bases? What I can tell you is that Turkiye has more naval bases in the vicinity than Greece and islands with no firepower are of no significance during a conflict!

Can you show me where I said Turkey maintains her forces for an offensive purpose? I was replying to your earlier contention that having many islands in the Aegean would itself make Greece a hard nut to crack. You also started going off track talking about possible scenarios including what would happen if Turkey attacked Greece in Thrace and the geography of the area! Then you go on to claim no such propaganda exists - so where do you come up with these scenarios with and why?

As for Simon's comments - you are absolutely right about the military expenditure of Turkey going down considerably over the past 5-6 years. This is solely due to Turkiye's acquired capability to manufacture her own F-16s, war-ships, most modern heavy mortars, automatic rifles (NATO standard) and lately even submarines! It is not a sign of weakness but of growing strength.

Furthermore, since Greece joined the EU the cost of living had rocketed to far above to that in Turkiye. In other words, the same food and clothing you provide for each soldiers has doubled in terms of dollars, whereas in Turkiye it is probably still half the price!

The above said, I repeat again what I had said earlier - Turkey has no interest or intentions of attacking anyone in the area, least of all Greece. Her military is for defending the republic and its borders. The only exception to the rule is her ongoing interest in defending the security of TCs in Cyprus - something they always agreed to give up, once a settlement is reached by the two sides involved.

As things stand between Greece and Turkey, huge advances have been made to erase the tension between the two countries, and they no longer see each other as a serious military threat. Joint social activities and tourism between the two is also on the increase - so with no reasons what so ever for anyone to attack the other, I really do not see what it is we are discussing here!

Very well put BigOz - the discussion of each countries military might isn't really pertinent to this discussion topic, but as with most topics in the 'Cyprus Problem' threads, they all end up in a Greece v Turkey or GC v TC type of argument.

As this thread was started with regards to the comments made by the German chancellor about 'regrets' that the ROC had been admitted without a solution to the Cypprob in place, lets see if the EU can add their weight to both communities so that they can get together and come up with a plan of action to resolve this long standing issue.