Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Nikitas,

I owe you a post, but it will have to wait until tomorrow I'm afraid.

[oranos64]

NO THANKS ...JUST ANOTHER KOSOVO ...I HAVE BEEN THERE ...CYPRUS IS FINE AS IT IS

open up famgusta to both communities as an experiment ..if that goes well for 6 years ...then look to new solutions ...i cant see communities intergrating when both want to be no1 ....and the cultures dont get along ...

[zan]

OK! So we are going to learn from the past but ignore the past so that we do not make the same mistakes again....Have the Three Stooges heard that one before???


Now to get on to the great Kifeas plan......

Just think about it for one minute...Is that not the same as giving both parties a veto. What will happen is one side will vote for GC rights and the other TC rights and STILL nothing will get done. Can you not see that. This is why I say separate states will run their own affairs.
On the; why don't I right my own plan....I am not qualified. I don't know much about art but I know what I like......

I am not qualified. You are not qualified and Kifeas is not qualified. Not with ideas like that anyway.

Well of course I see that. The only difference is, that the number of members in the Parliament is proportional to the each community, and it is fair and Democratic, rather than insisting on a 50-50 which is not getting us anywhere. As you very smartly figured out, the TC's still have a VETO if they all decide against a certain law, but guess what, you have 20 members making a decision for the TC's and not just one vice President. The more players you have there's more chance on a give and take rather than between two men, the President and a Vice president.

I'm glad you have finally grasped the basic concepts of Democracy. (being sarcastic)

There's hope for us all yet.

So as you can see, Kifeas has put in Safeguards for the TC's, that you and VP has been asking for.

Is this not correct.??

So, no more excuses please.

There is no difference to giving us 50-50 than this concoction Kiks. The point was that you say one will not work and advocate another when they are equal in status. Do you think by having just a president voting that he can vote what he likes or does he have to have a majority of his party and countrymen's agreement.

You are tying yourself up in notts ( ) here mate. If one will not work then nor will the other. If that is the case then welcome to the world of partition..you partitionist you.....



So to recap, in case you did not get what I was saying above...We, the TCs were given too much power in 1960 and that is why the system did not work but you have redesigned the wheel and are giving us back the same power and are convinced that it will work and are now calling it democratic.....Clear as mud!

Zan,

OK wise guy, since you and VP are so anti solution along the plan I presented, and since you both want a Turkish run state in the North, and are willing to let GC's come and live there under your rules, then I assume you're also going to be giving them regardless what ever number of GC's are in the Northern State, 50% percent of power sharing, so that the GC's get to control their own future.?? If the answer is NO, then I can see the status que continuing with the isolation and a de facto State. But VP predicts that the "TRNC" will become recognised in 10 years time. There you go Zan, just hang in there and all the problems for the TC's and the "TRNC" will all go away in about 10 years, just as it has for Israel after taking over Palestinian land in 1948. Sarcasm intended. I believe the phrase used by Nikitas " you want to be Masters of the North, and Partners in the South" seems to be very true with all the Partitionist. Talk about being "Double Faced".

I am not trying to be a wise guy Kiks just trying to point out the similarities of the two systems and the silliness behind trying to sell one and condemn the other...With a bit of humor of course. And in that same vein if I do not believe that one 50-50 system will work then why would I accept another.

As I have said to you before you took on the job and have come up against another brick wall. You have to be the one to get around it. Stop getting angry. Tell me where I am going wrong in my thinking that both systems are one and the same thing and that you said one of them would not work but the other will. It is you that have confused me as to what you want???

Zan,

Well, if you believe there is no difference, then why are you pushing for a 50-50 Power sharing as a means to give the TC's safeguards. Am I to understand from your statement, that since there is no difference from Kifeas's power sharing plan and the 50-50 that you want, you are just jerking us off with this claim as a smoke screen. In another words, the 50-50 power sharing is not the main issue for you, is it.??

But to get back to Kifeas's plan for a moment, although it gives the TC's all the Safeguards as your 50-50 plan, it also gives positions in the government in a 80-20 proportion, which will be the demand of the GC's to be fair and balanced. Do you think it is wrong to expect that by the GC's.?? So, if you think 50-50 is fair, then I don't know why you do not accept Kifeas's Plan, which actually "levels the playing field", to use VP's words.

Kiks, have you forgotten what I said in the first instance. I will remind you. I said that I do not believe that unification will work and these problems are some of the highlights. What I have asked for is time to get into a position of equal wealth and status as the South. I then said that when that happens unification is the luxury of that generation. I also said that I think unification will happen naturally with businesses. I must admit that I have played with the ideas that you and others have put forward but I keep coming up with the same answer. It has been proved yet again with your proposal because we twist and turn and we come up with versions of the same thing and you agree that it is unworkable with one hand and then offer it in the same package in another. I don't quite understand your argument and you will have to excuse me tonight because I am tired and not feeling that well. Please explain to me how one will work and the other same scenario will not. I hope this all makes sense as I have explained my condition tonight.

[Nikitas]

Oranos,

Famagusta, my hometown. It is the big money pot. The people in the know realise this so they are skirting around the issue very carefully. No one wants to miss out the opportunity of making money out of it.

Just imagine the business angle! Several thousand dbuildings that have to be demolished, a new town plan drawn up, all infrastructure rebuilt from scratch, thousands of buildings erected. Some of it financed by the EU and the rest from the poor bastards who were originally kicked out! And who makes the money? Who will work in Famagusta? Who is doing a favor to who? I have heard that the rebuilding of Famagusta is equal to five annual budgets of the Republic of Cyprus. It is a big pie and like the rest of you I have no knife to cut me a share.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

I just read your very interesting account of your visit to Cyprus. Mine was different mostly because I was not returning from a country like Switzerland but from Greece, which softened the contrast.

You mentioned the word Haram, which I know from Arabic. Your choice of the word fascinated me. But alas, such wishes do not come true. It is when I read accounts like yours that I reluctantly envision that reunification might not be possible. Who is going to compensate the "innocent" foreigners who bought the land? And how can you talk about a partnership with the regime that has allowed this corrupt system to flourish? It will be an incongruous mix to have European style efficiency in the south and the corrupt cronyism in the north. It is at times like that when I give in and see Kifea's point of going for total separation, high walls and all.

In my recent vistis to Cyprus, in 2005 and this year, I just could not bring myself to visit the north. It was not a political or nationalist problem. It was personal. I just could not risk losing my memories. At this point the only thing that I have of my childhood and early teens are those memories of Famagusta. So I played it safe and did not visit. In any case, I could not visit Famagusta itself, just the villages in the district, and they do not even have the same names anymore.

But let us get back to your points re a solution. The reason I keep coming back to the incentives for people like us to return to the island is to counteract an attitude expressed by many and above all prime minister Erdogan when he said:

"What if people are leaving [from the north of Cyprus], we have plenty of people to put there....". The comment is self explanatory. I feel insulted to see so much effort going into how settlers will be treated and possibly compensated for leaving land that belonging to others when Cypriots who were forced to leave get no mention in any solution. Yes we are allowed to go back now, but we are not actively encouraged to go back. Rather than bring people to populate the north a lto can be cone to encourage Turkish Cypriots who left to come back and settle there. That I can understand and accept and so can most Greek Cypriots I would say. In the same way I can accept the rotating presidency if the presidents are Cypriot, but would never accept it if one was a non Cypriot, even if he were a Greek from the mainland. The possiblity just goes against the grain.

Nikitas

Nikitas,

My choice of words while writing that "report" were emotionally charged at times, and looking back, I still feel they were accurately used. Since you are fairly new to the forum, you have not had the "pleasure" of knowing past arguments between myself and fellow TC's here. You will have to go back almost back to January of this year to read up on some of our disagreements on how a TC should behave and that if one is a TC, then my "New Country" was now the "TRNC" and not the RoC. I always considered whole of Cyprus as my country and not just part of it, and that all TC's and GC's were all Cypriots of one country, since that's how I left it back in 1964 at the age of 9 years old. Due to uncertainty of whether I will be required to do a Military service in the North or not, and due to various different answers to my questions regarding this prior to going to Cyprus, I chose not to cross over to the North for a visit. It was unfortunate, but I still believe I made the right decision at that time not going to the North.

Since joining this forum over year ago, I always kept a positive mood for the Cypriots to one day Unifying the island for all Cypriots. I bought into the some of the TC propaganda that was being dished out here by one or two members at that time, as to all the reasons why we have not yet Unified, and that almost most of the blame went towards the GC's. And when the GC's said OXI to the Annan Plan, they were seen as committing the ultimate sin. But what really brought a lot of the truth for me as to what was really going on in the North, and in the minds of the Partitionist versus everything else that I was hearing, from the Partitionist on the forum, was my conversation with my Cousin's husband. He spoke the truth from his heart which was challenged by the Partitionist on this forum, and yet, as time went by, even these Partitionist have come forward and are saying the same things that I have already heard from the "husband". I think they have gotten some courage and become more BOLD. If you ever wanted to spend any of your valuable time to read what went on after I came back from Cyprus, then you should read this "epic thread"......... "Kikapu's time in Cyprus".

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... pus+cyprus


I believe more Cypriots will return to visit and live on the island once a settlement is found, and if not full time, at least part time. As far as settlers replacing any TC that may chose not to return, is a fact and it has already happened by at least factor of 50%. Will it become 100% percent one day, if a solution is not found, and the answer is, more that likely. The settlers came because they were given properties they never had, and I believe most will leave back to Turkey, if those same properties are taken away from them, in a future settlement. Certain compromises are also need to be made on some of the settlers however.

As far as rotating Presidents. I'm not really too hot on this idea, that once every 5th turn, only a TC can be a President. How democratic is that.?? What I would propose, and I will include this in my Peace Plan, is to have the running mate of a President to be from other ethnicity. For example, If a GC wants to run for a President, his running mate for vice President has to be non GC. So if the running mate is a TC, who shares the same ideas as the GC who wants to be President, then they can get votes from both the communities. If the president dies in office or is removed for what ever reason, then the TC will take over as a President, then the vice President will be someone other than a TC. Same goes for a TC who runs as a President, that his or hers running mate for the vice President position will be filled by non TC candidate.

[Nikitas]

Kikapu,

Thank you for thaking the time to post your clarification.

Over the few days I have been reading the forum I realised one thing that has been missing from the interminable talks of politicians since 1963- detail!

If you recall the statements made after almost every meeting between the two communities' negotiators you will find statements like "the meeting was informative and constructive, cevering the essential aspects of the Cyprus issue". It was secret doplomacy all along as if the details would not be cemprehensible to the people, you might even say our politicians regarded us as not intelligent (trustworthy?) enough to understand the details of any plan. Well it seemsthat after the Anna plan fiasco secret diplomacy won't cut it anymore and forums like this are hammering out the details that people want to see in a settlement.

So let us work out the details and hope that the information and press departments of both sides are listening in! Maybe they will copy some of the ideas posted here!

Nikitas

[Kifeas]

The Turkish Cypriot Political Regime and the Role of Turkey

By Ahmet Djavit An

http://www.virtualict.com/~erpicorg/ima ... 0Draft.doc

[humanist]

I would like to see more debate onthis thread. Our leaders could learn from constructive and positive propositions. Thanks people

[repulsewarrior]

enjoyed this thread.

many valid points, and a proposal which is inviting.

thanks Kik

[repulsewarrior]

...i still think that my voting system is best, and the Legislature it will form is not affected by changing demographics.