Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Kikapu,

The problem is that Cypriots think that they are the only people on earth to have had a civil war. The events of 1963 are by any definition a civil war. The United States had a civil war in the 1860s with casualty numbers that would make ours seem insignificant by cmparison. Same goes for Spain in the 1930s, Britain in the 16th century, but no sir! Ours was THE civil war of all time, not to be outdone by anybody elses!

Cypriots from both sides cling to the insults of times past, although since coming to this forum and sice visiting Cyprus recently, the first time in 25 years, I discern a level of political maturity in the Greek side that is still lacking in the north. Union with Greece is not a topic in Greek or Greek Cypriot life, but very much a hot topic among Turkish Cypriots, judging by the talk in this forum. The main concern in the south is viability of any solution because no one wants a repeat of 1963. Looking a the overall picture, as a visitor this time, it seems the the south has fewer national issues pending in their collective conscious, and that perhaps is the reason that there has been no mass "Grecofication" in the south with changes in place names and the like. They even retain the Turkish street names and signs and all traffic signs are still in three languages- Greek Turkish English.

In the north all signs it had once been inhabited by Greeks have been relentlessly obliterated. Even tourist guides when referring to obviously Greek elements, like the ancient city of Salamis do not mention the word "Greek" once. And I really love the one about the Karpasia donkeys: "after the peace operation of 1974 many donkeys in Karpas found themselves without owners", that is a classic!!!! This type of compulsive assertion of a national identity makes the north look like it is in denial, it just does not feel healthy.

From this and other evidence it is more likely that a solution along the lines you prospose would be acceptable in the south rather than the north. The north has many issues to resolve within itself before it can thnk of the details of a fairly complex federal plan like the one you are proposing. I must say tht your plan is a lot more rational than mr Annan's. Llike I told you before, what is missing is provision for us unfortunate bastards who live abroad and need incentives to return, and for the political equality of the other communities of the island that Annan treated like garbage. And finally the foreign armies and bases that are the root of this problem must be kicked out. If we could a figure a way to do all that then we are talking.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

The problem is that Cypriots think that they are the only people on earth to have had a civil war. The events of 1963 are by any definition a civil war. The United States had a civil war in the 1860s with casualty numbers that would make ours seem insignificant by cmparison. Same goes for Spain in the 1930s, Britain in the 16th century, but no sir! Ours was THE civil war of all time, not to be outdone by anybody elses!

Cypriots from both sides cling to the insults of times past, although since coming to this forum and sice visiting Cyprus recently, the first time in 25 years, I discern a level of political maturity in the Greek side that is still lacking in the north. Union with Greece is not a topic in Greek or Greek Cypriot life, but very much a hot topic among Turkish Cypriots, judging by the talk in this forum. The main concern in the south is viability of any solution because no one wants a repeat of 1963. Looking a the overall picture, as a visitor this time, it seems the the south has fewer national issues pending in their collective conscious, and that perhaps is the reason that there has been no mass "Grecofication" in the south with changes in place names and the like. They even retain the Turkish street names and signs and all traffic signs are still in three languages- Greek Turkish English.

In the north all signs it had once been inhabited by Greeks have been relentlessly obliterated. Even tourist guides when referring to obviously Greek elements, like the ancient city of Salamis do not mention the word "Greek" once. And I really love the one about the Karpasia donkeys: "after the peace operation of 1974 many donkeys in Karpas found themselves without owners", that is a classic!!!! This type of compulsive assertion of a national identity makes the north look like it is in denial, it just does not feel healthy.

From this and other evidence it is more likely that a solution along the lines you prospose would be acceptable in the south rather than the north. The north has many issues to resolve within itself before it can thnk of the details of a fairly complex federal plan like the one you are proposing. I must say tht your plan is a lot more rational than mr Annan's. Llike I told you before, what is missing is provision for us unfortunate bastards who live abroad and need incentives to return, and for the political equality of the other communities of the island that Annan treated like garbage. And finally the foreign armies and bases that are the root of this problem must be kicked out. If we could a figure a way to do all that then we are talking.

Nikitas, you were hitting on all cylinders with your assessment of the Cyprus problem and the Cypriot communities. Our "civil war" was and is so miniscule to the rest of the world, it is embarrassing to keep using it as a pretexts for prolonging the division of the island. This week marked the 60th Anniversary of India and Pakistan's independence from Britain, yet again it was from the British, but not before thousands were slaughtered to form the two nations. We are no were near those figures, thank God.

I was in Cyprus this year for the first time in 43 years, and I spent 2 weeks in the RoC, and I saw the road and street signs being in Turkish as well as in Greek at certain locations, specially at Turkish sectors of Larnaca, Limassol and Paphos.

Nikitas, why do you need any provisions in my peace proposals for Cypriots who wish to return back to Cyprus. Can they not do that right now if they wish to do so.??? If one is a Cypriot, surely they do not require any protection in a constitution to help them re-locate back to Cyprus. If you mean financial assistance to those who lost everything in the past, then your point is well taken. There should be funds available to assists those who need it, to help them come home to their country.

If you want to read my trip to Cyprus, here is the report. It's about 9 pages long.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus11420.html

[zan]

Kikapu,

The problem is that Cypriots think that they are the only people on earth to have had a civil war. The events of 1963 are by any definition a civil war. The United States had a civil war in the 1860s with casualty numbers that would make ours seem insignificant by cmparison. Same goes for Spain in the 1930s, Britain in the 16th century, but no sir! Ours was THE civil war of all time, not to be outdone by anybody elses!

I think personal would be a more accurate description


Cypriots from both sides cling to the insults of times past, although since coming to this forum and sice visiting Cyprus recently, the first time in 25 years, I discern a level of political maturity in the Greek side that is still lacking in the north. Union with Greece is not a topic in Greek or Greek Cypriot life, but very much a hot topic among Turkish Cypriots, judging by the talk in this forum. The main concern in the south is viability of any solution because no one wants a repeat of 1963. Looking a the overall picture, as a visitor this time, it seems the the south has fewer national issues pending in their collective conscious, and that perhaps is the reason that there has been no mass "Grecofication" in the south with changes in place names and the like. They even retain the Turkish street names and signs and all traffic signs are still in three languages- Greek Turkish English.


They have unity with Greece through the EU and it is getting more and more so with banks merging. That is why there is no talk of it. The talk of taking over the whole island must be buzzing though. You have not allowed for the reasons behind the naming of streets and signs either. How can a country that claims to represent all of Cyprus change signs and street names. I think that would make their aims obvious don't you. What a very simplistic way of looking at political spin you have


In the north all signs it had once been inhabited by Greeks have been relentlessly obliterated. Even tourist guides when referring to obviously Greek elements, like the ancient city of Salamis do not mention the word "Greek" once. And I really love the one about the Karpasia donkeys: "after the peace operation of 1974 many donkeys in Karpas found themselves without owners", that is a classic!!!! This type of compulsive assertion of a national identity makes the north look like it is in denial, it just does not feel healthy.

I think it is a positive step into finding and keeping an identity that was denied us. We do not claim to represent the whole island either

From this and other evidence it is more likely that a solution along the lines you prospose would be acceptable in the south rather than the north. The north has many issues to resolve within itself before it can thnk of the details of a fairly complex federal plan like the one you are proposing. I must say tht your plan is a lot more rational than mr Annan's. Llike I told you before, what is missing is provision for us unfortunate bastards who live abroad and need incentives to return, and for the political equality of the other communities of the island that Annan treated like garbage. And finally the foreign armies and bases that are the root of this problem must be kicked out. If we could a figure a way to do all that then we are talking.


Should that not be part and parcel of a solution

[Nikitas]

Zan you manage to narrow things down in a most Cypriot way.

The reason no one talks about Enosis anymore is because it has become irrelevant. Things have changed both in Greece and Cyprus and the rest of the world too. No one on the Greek side talks about taking over the whole of the island. Whenever you drive through areas formerly occupied byt Turkish Cypriots people will stress that the properties are "Turkika". No mosque has been turned into a church. There has been no practice of obliterating evidence of the Turkish presence of the past.

As for unity with Greece, you have it totally wrong. I have been living in Greece for over 30 years and I need a residence permit just like all other foreigners. So do the children who were born here. Cypriots here do not vote and are legally no different than other aliens. The notion that the EU unifies countries in the way Enosis was meant to unite Greece with Cyprus is just not true.

The obliteration of any sign that Greeks once lived in the north is interpreted as exrpessing an identity that was denied to you. How is the erasing of the word Greek from the tourist brochure on Salamis, or Lapithos, an expression of your identity? That assertion realy beats me! What we do perceive from these practices in the north is exclusion through obliteration and no one wants to risk that happening in any other part of the island.

[zan]

Zan you manage to narrow things down in a most Cypriot way.

The reason no one talks about Enosis anymore is because it has become irrelevant. Things have changed both in Greece and Cyprus and the rest of the world too. No one on the Greek side talks about taking over the whole of the island. Whenever you drive through areas formerly occupied byt Turkish Cypriots people will stress that the properties are "Turkika". No mosque has been turned into a church. There has been no practice of obliterating evidence of the Turkish presence of the past.

I explained why above Nikitas. Please read it again.

As for unity with Greece, you have it totally wrong. I have been living in Greece for over 30 years and I need a residence permit just like all other foreigners. So do the children who were born here. Cypriots here do not vote and are legally no different than other aliens. The notion that the EU unifies countries in the way Enosis was meant to unite Greece with Cyprus is just not true.


Thats why I said that they are doing more to unite further. I am sorry but you really are looking at this from just one perspective. They cannot do everything at once because the island is not yet in theirhands as a whole. The politics of this is much more hidden than you are giving it credit for. You are not seeing the whole picture

The obliteration of any sign that Greeks once lived in the north is interpreted as exrpessing an identity that was denied to you. How is the erasing of the word Greek from the tourist brochure on Salamis, or Lapithos, an expression of your identity? That assertion realy beats me! What we do perceive from these practices in the north is exclusion through obliteration and no one wants to risk that happening in any other part of the island.

I am sorry to bring this up yet again but it is far more humane than the genocide attempt by Makarios. We are not given our identity through the "RoC" so we have to make it ourselves. I really don't see the big deal in a few street names anyway when yoou look at what else is happening.

[Kikapu]

You really are flogging a dead horse and then shouting at those around you who telling you that you are mad. The reason that I say that is because you are so mixed up and have forgotten all that has happened in Cyprus during your life time. When I vote in the UK I have nothing to compare but policies. They did not not try to kill me and my family. They are not holding my people under siege. We do not have a divided nation of which I was once a part. You insult every one of us with these comparisons in which you refuse to accept that we have a completely different situation to the UK or to wherever we were driven to by murdering genocidal thugs. You have no respect for our history and therefore you have concocted a recipe from ingredients that are not indigenous to our region. What the hell is the matter with you.

Zan,

I'm not flogging a Dead Horse my friend, because it is a Mule who is pretending to be a Horse and he is not Dead, he is just Very Stubborn. The reason why I'm flogging this very stubborn Mule is, it's because he is not willing to step out of the 1963 era and into the 21st Century. I'm flogging this poor stubborn Mule to see things in a new light, but he refuses.

Therefore the flogging will continue I'm afraid.

Now lets get to your main argument.

Just what is it that I have forgotten about my past.?? It is the fact that I have not forgotten about my past, are the reasons that I want to make changes for our future. I'm making proposals that leaves the past behind, because those arrangements where each community had a 50-50 say in every decision making did not work and does not work and will not work again in the future. You can only have one driver behind the wheel, that's how Democracy works. When you have two people trying to drive the same car at the same time, you are going to have a big crash, and that's what we had back in 1963. What amazes me is, you have not learned anything from your past and you want to once again repeat the same mistakes. As the famous saying goes "those who have not learned from History, are Doomed to repeat them again". This is what you are pushing for by wanting to avoid True Democracy for Cyprus. So before you preach to me that I have forgotten my History, you better start remembering as to why we are here today in the mess that we are in.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, so stop with your finger pointing all the time to others, and once in a while point the finger at yourself for not accepting another idea and another method of ruling our selves, because the idea of 2 people driving the same car at the same time, did not work back then, and it will not work in the future. So stop being stubborn and give as your version of how we can rule Cyprus. Why don't you give us a plan Zan, rather than always referring to the AP. It did not pass, so because it got an OXI we should just play "dead" and let the partition go through because you believe that's where all your answers are. Well, they are not there my friend. What awaits at the end of a Partition, is a disaster waiting to explode.

Can you tell me what's wrong with this plan drawn by Kifeas. What is it about this plan, that you cannot live with. I'll be really interested to know.

This is the formula crated by Kifeas, also known as "Kifeas's Plan" for POWER sharing in a Parliamentary system.

Quote:
If we have a house of 100 members (80 GCs plus 20 TCs) and decisions are taken on simple majority, it means that at least any 51 members out of the above 100 members will have to approve it. However, in order to qualify as simple majority, at least 4 (or 6) of the votes must come (included in the 51 votes needed) from the 20 TCs (20% or 30% of the TC members,) and at least 16 (or 24) of the votes must come from (included in the 51votes needed) from the 80 GCs.

For example we can have the following combination for simple majority to qualify.
I take a special case example that needs 30% minimum from each side.

Case 1:
6 TCs plus 45 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)

Case 2:
20 TCs plus 31 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)

Case 3:
5 TCs plus 46 GCs equals 51 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)

Case 4:
1 TC plus 80 GCs equals 81 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)

[zan]

OK! So we are going to learn from the past but ignore the past so that we do not make the same mistakes again....Have the Three Stooges heard that one before???


Now to get on to the great Kifeas plan......

Just think about it for one minute...Is that not the same as giving both parties a veto. What will happen is one side will vote for GC rights and the other TC rights and STILL nothing will get done. Can you not see that. This is why I say separate states will run their own affairs.


On the; why don't I right my own plan....I am not qualified. I don't know much about art but I know what I like......

I am not qualified. You are not qualified and Kifeas is not qualified. Not with ideas like that anyway.

[Nikitas]

Kikapu,

I just read your very interesting account of your visit to Cyprus. Mine was different mostly because I was not returning from a country like Switzerland but from Greece, which softened the contrast.

You mentioned the word Haram, which I know from Arabic. Your choice of the word fascinated me. But alas, such wishes do not come true. It is when I read accounts like yours that I reluctantly envision that reunification might not be possible. Who is going to compensate the "innocent" foreigners who bought the land? And how can you talk about a partnership with the regime that has allowed this corrupt system to flourish? It will be an incongruous mix to have European style efficiency in the south and the corrupt cronyism in the north. It is at times like that when I give in and see Kifea's point of going for total separation, high walls and all.

In my recent vistis to Cyprus, in 2005 and this year, I just could not bring myself to visit the north. It was not a political or nationalist problem. It was personal. I just could not risk losing my memories. At this point the only thing that I have of my childhood and early teens are those memories of Famagusta. So I played it safe and did not visit. In any case, I could not visit Famagusta itself, just the villages in the district, and they do not even have the same names anymore.

But let us get back to your points re a solution. The reason I keep coming back to the incentives for people like us to return to the island is to counteract an attitude expressed by many and above all prime minister Erdogan when he said:

"What if people are leaving [from the north of Cyprus], we have plenty of people to put there....". The comment is self explanatory. I feel insulted to see so much effort going into how settlers will be treated and possibly compensated for leaving land that belonging to others when Cypriots who were forced to leave get no mention in any solution. Yes we are allowed to go back now, but we are not actively encouraged to go back. Rather than bring people to populate the north a lto can be cone to encourage Turkish Cypriots who left to come back and settle there. That I can understand and accept and so can most Greek Cypriots I would say. In the same way I can accept the rotating presidency if the presidents are Cypriot, but would never accept it if one was a non Cypriot, even if he were a Greek from the mainland. The possiblity just goes against the grain.

Nikitas

[Viewpoint]

You really are flogging a dead horse and then shouting at those around you who telling you that you are mad. The reason that I say that is because you are so mixed up and have forgotten all that has happened in Cyprus during your life time. When I vote in the UK I have nothing to compare but policies. They did not not try to kill me and my family. They are not holding my people under siege. We do not have a divided nation of which I was once a part. You insult every one of us with these comparisons in which you refuse to accept that we have a completely different situation to the UK or to wherever we were driven to by murdering genocidal thugs. You have no respect for our history and therefore you have concocted a recipe from ingredients that are not indigenous to our region. What the hell is the matter with you.

Great post my friend, you hit the nail right on the head.

[Kikapu]

OK! So we are going to learn from the past but ignore the past so that we do not make the same mistakes again....Have the Three Stooges heard that one before???


Now to get on to the great Kifeas plan......

Just think about it for one minute...Is that not the same as giving both parties a veto. What will happen is one side will vote for GC rights and the other TC rights and STILL nothing will get done. Can you not see that. This is why I say separate states will run their own affairs.
On the; why don't I right my own plan....I am not qualified. I don't know much about art but I know what I like......

I am not qualified. You are not qualified and Kifeas is not qualified. Not with ideas like that anyway.

Well of course I see that. The only difference is, that the number of members in the Parliament is proportional to the each community, and it is fair and Democratic, rather than insisting on a 50-50 which is not getting us anywhere. As you very smartly figured out, the TC's still have a VETO if they all decide against a certain law, but guess what, you have 20 members making a decision for the TC's and not just one vice President. The more players you have there's more chance on a give and take rather than between two men, the President and a Vice president.

I'm glad you have finally grasped the basic concepts of Democracy. (being sarcastic)

There's hope for us all yet.

So as you can see, Kifeas has put in Safeguards for the TC's, that you and VP has been asking for.

Is this not correct.??

So, no more excuses please.