Cyprus-Forum.com

[SN]

SN, I really can't be arsed with you, because your comments are there to be laughed at most of the time; but I will reply this once, considering you chose only to reply to me (which is quite obviously because you have nothing to say to DT, when he provides you with quite clear legal evidence that Greece is correct in the Aegean dispute and Turkey is the aggressor).

You argue, that what you have said is backed up by Human Rights watchdogs. OK, so show me one quote from the EU or UN, where is states that Greece is a fascist state, with one of the worst Human Rights records in the world? Where does it say that Greece is a shit hole? Where does it say that Greece is a Nazi state? This is indeed what you have said repeatedly, is it not? These are not the words of someone I take seriously. What they will say is that Greece has problems and improvements to make. What state hasn't? Doesn't quite follow your claims though does it?

You tell me to see the bigger picture, and then with the very next breath you make the unforgivable mistake of missing the whole picture. You MUST consider Greece's actions in the light of Turkey's, because when you have a much larger, aggressive neighbor, you must react to the threats and developments to defend your national interests. That is one concept I do not believe you grasp: NATIONAL INTERESTS.

You repeatedly ramble about the "Macedonian cause". The FYROM has a history of dissipating propaganda regarding the ancient Greek Macedonians, claiming ownership of ancient Greek history and culture, including in their original Constitution irredentist objectives against the modern day Greek state, and generally acting as an annoyance to Greece. Now, whether the FYROM has the power to see through these underlying aims is irrelevant, Greece simply cannot allow a state to behave in such a way on its border. What do you believe is the purpose of the FYROM naming their main airport after Alexander the Great? One state cannot be allowed to usurp the history of another. To bring this matter to a conclusion, Greece is willing to negotiate this issue and has shown flexibility, however the FYROM refuses. If many in Greek Macedonia believes in the propaganda of the FYROM in the same way you do, then Greece could have every reason to worry about recognising them under their "constitutional name".

The minority issue: I believe that AlexISS has dealt with this repeatedly. Greece recognises a Muslim minority, which is made up of numerous ethnic groups, including Turkish, which is what the Greek Foreign Ministry itself states. It does not label them all 'Turkish', because they are not. Simple as that. What is MORE IMPORTANT, is, do they enjoy a good quality of life, and are they treated as equal citizens? The answer is clearly Yes. Hardly a Nazi state is it? Are Greeks living in Turkey given the same privilege? The answer is NO.

If Greece were to enter a war with Turkey (for whatever reason) I certainly believe it would be Turkey's main objective to occupy Thrace and populate it with more Turks (see Cyprus) and to probably do the same to the islands close to Turkey's border. Guess what the excuse will be? Yes, protecting their minority (see Cyprus). Learn from history. You must understand that Greek Cypriots and Greeks share a common enemy. You believe that by breaking your link with Cyprus, Greco-Turkish relations will be normalised. This is cowardice stupidity. Greece has many, many disputes and historical distrust with Turkey, which will not just vanish. I do not think you quite understand the fact the Turkey is one of the most nationalistic countries in the world, and underestimating this, and their politically powerful military is extremely dangerous. As we have seen before, it does not take much for Turkey to consider declaring a casus belli. Greece is clearly within her legal right to expand 12 nautical miles in the Aegean, and Turkey says this is a casus belli? You pointed out before that Turkey was willing to enter bilateral discussions? What you failed to mention in your blinded bias of the situation against your own country, is that Greece offered to take the matter to an international court. Turkey refused. I'll tell you why, because Turkey wants to exclude international law, and simply set up bilateral talks, so as to draw Greece into more concessions. However, Greece is wise enough to stick to her guns, knowing she has international law on her side.

You repeatedly state that you want Greece to end all support for Greek Cypriots, claiming that this is for the good of GCs. However, you should also consider that Greece is very implicated in this whole problem, and simply walking away now, would be extremely selfish and damaging to the GC cause. It would not be beneficial to GCs at all, this is simply your dressing up of the situation so as to suit your own purposes. If Greece ended its involvement today, the GCs would still have all the same problems with Turkey, only that we would have less support trying to solve them. GCs already control their own affairs; Greece does not interfere to a great extent, and therefore Greece is not the problem today, as you seek to claim. There is little division in the GC population today...so I haven't got a clue where you got this from. The GCs are unanimous that the problem is 40,000 Turkish troops, that want to upgrade a breakaway puppet regime into a fully functioning state. GCs want to unite. Greece supporting the GCs bargaining position is certainly not a hindrance to any solution. Believing the contrary is just plain crass.

Greece's support for Cyprus is my wishful thinking you say? You really do need to look around you slightly more. What is the Joint Defence Doctrine about, if not support? Why do Greek and Cypriot forces engage in joint combat training? Why are there Greek troops in Cyprus? Even if only symoblic, the point is, they are there as a show of support. Why does Greece politically support the RoC in all its aims? Finally, the average Greek does not think like you claim, just another concoction to support your aims. I speak to many Greeks and I have indeed just come across a recent poll myself, in which around 60% of Greeks considered Cyprus an important issue for Greece; and Cyprus is still clearly an important issue in Greek Foreign Policy, so stop wasting my time with baseless suggestions.

I responded to you bsc the conversation is going to rounds.

All the issues you mention i have provided more than sufficient info(from neutral sources NOT Greek) both to Alexis about the actual name of the minority(a crucial element) and about the disputes,which are named legal differences by most.

While my phraseology about Greece i must admit is harsh,there is no credible organization today that would ever explicitly say a country is a Nazi like state.Murataga provided you some info on the condemnetions Greece has faced.I cannot be bothered by that.All the Europeans know that human rights in Greece are constanltly violated.So asking me to find a quote about Nazism in Greece is just a vain attempt to deny Greece's condemnations.

My personal harsh phraseology only shows anger towards my country which i want to consider European.I am neither a skopjian an undercover TC or GC or Turkish citizen or whatever might make you feel at ease.

If you look closely i was the first one to say that Greece is hoping to take the bilatarel issues with Turkey to Hague.Turkey is refusing for the same reason Greece is taking taking Turkey to the Hague...It is a political game of geopolitical control and not about agression.

While the Eniaio Amyntiko Dogma you mention is a sign of support to Cyprus by Greece,someone neutral could view it as Greece's vain attempt to geopolitically control more and more the area.

My very presence on a Cypriot forum prooves exactly what you said on your last paragraph that Greeks do care about Cyprus.But why do they care or consider Cyprus an important national issue?Did you get what i have been saying all these days?
Merely bsc the Greek citizens are cought up in Greece's constant interference to the Cyprus issue since your independence and before in 1960.So i wouldnt be suprised if 90% said that the Cyprus issue is our most important national issue.
In reality the Greek citizens would not want to be a part of a war that has to do with Cyprus.I mean what does Cyprus has to do with the sovereign rights of my own country???It is not a selfish thing,rather a depiction of reality.Take a poll and ask the question how many Greek citizens would want to die or go to war for Cyprus.That might elluminate you.Apart from some rather retarded elements of the Greek diaspora,the Elladites in Greece are quite detached to Cyprus.

If it makes you feel at ease to pretend that Greece is your motherland or whatever stupidity that is linked to Greece,fine.It is not me who is gonna attempt to alter your perceived ''national consiousness''.

I am sure you will find many of your GC compatriots who think exactly the same as i think about Greece.If not worse.Specially the leftish people.So i am neither isolated on what i have to say.Maybe i am isolated regarding my phraseology,which few would use out of ''respect'' or bullshit,none the less i merely stating the obvious,Greece is in no way gonna be interested in the Greek Cypriots.We have our own internal issues to tackle.Greece only cares about control.

Maybe if RoC ultimately discover more oil in your south waters Greece will ''care'' even more...

[Simon]

DT provided, and I have stated clear evidence of Turkey's intentions, and Greece's legally sound position regarding the Aegean. Therefore, as you have not responded to these points, I take it you concede that your country is on safe grounds in that particular dispute.


However, It is clear that you have neither the awareness nor flexibility to ensure your views are consistent.

Firstly, you stated that Human Rights Watchdogs substantiated what you say. Well now, I have showed you to be wrong, as none say what you have; to which you simply moderate your claims to 'condemning' Greece. This itself is quite amusing. The fact is, no reputable organisation would say such things, because they are not true. You're ridiculously exaggerated allegations are there to be laughed at, as I pointed out before. Yes, Greece can make improvements, but the way you promote your cause does you no favours, and you will certainly lose credibility with your terminology. Greece is still a relatively new nation, and progress has been, and will continue to be made. Your criticisms are unfair to say the least. I noticed that you indicated that you were beaten by Greek Police in a different thread; I wonder whether such personal experiences has spawned a resentment within you, towards Greece.

You have provided no sufficient information that substantiate your claims. The minority situation is how I described (which I noticed you did not actually dispute) as are the other disputes.

Your country is European, being 'European' does not mean being 'perfect'. Ask France.


[quote]While the Eniaio Amyntiko Dogma you mention is a sign of support to Cyprus by Greece,someone neutral could view it as Greece's vain attempt to geopolitically control more and more the area. [/quote]

This is the type of response I have come to expect from you. You seem obsessed with this notion that Greece seeks to dominate the whole region. You perhaps harbour hopes of a neo-Greek empire. It really is incredulous. I provide you with evidence that Greece does support the RoC, you respond by suggesting Greece just wants to dominate the region. What a load of rubbish (and either way it is still support for the RoC no matter what the motives are). The RoC would not have such agreements if it did not believe it was in its interests. Greece is simply supporting GCs against a common enemy, however, I wouldn't expect you to understand this. Furthermore, any nation in the world tries to make its presence felt in its region and wants to be important. With Turkey trying to dominate the region militarily (i.e. Cyprus, Greece, Iraq, Armenia etc) Greece is also trying to maintain itself as an important player in the region. Absolutely nothing wrong with this. Like I said before, it relates to NATIONAL INTEREST.


[quote]My very presence on a Cypriot forum prooves exactly what you said on your last paragraph that Greeks do care about Cyprus.But why do they care or consider Cyprus an important national issue?Did you get what i have been saying all these days?
Merely bsc the Greek citizens are cought up in Greece's constant interference to the Cyprus issue since your independence and before in 1960.So i wouldnt be suprised if 90% said that the Cyprus issue is our most important national issue.
In reality the Greek citizens would not want to be a part of a war that has to do with Cyprus.I mean what does Cyprus has to do with the sovereign rights of my own country???It is not a selfish thing,rather a depiction of reality.Take a poll and ask the question how many Greek citizens would want to die or go to war for Cyprus.That might elluminate you.Apart from some rather retarded elements of the Greek diaspora,the Elladites in Greece are quite detached to Cyprus. [/quote]


So now Greeks do care about Cyprus? You need to make up your mind, as I don't have to much time for inconsistences. A moment a go, Greeks do not give a shit, now 90% would consider it a most important issue? Greeks care because it is a national issue. Greeks care because they feel that the Greek junta takes a large part of the blame for what happened in Cyprus. Greeks care because they have close cultural, religious and identity ties with Greek Cypriots; and they share a common mistrust of Turkey. Greece cares because it is inextricably entangled in Cyprus' history. You should care and want to help Cyprus because your country helped create the problems. Your willingness to just walk away now things are getting tough constitutes cowardice and selfishness. Further, your suggested poll is quite frankly ridiculous. Take a poll and ask how many Brits would die for Iraq before the war. And yet, there are still British troops there, dying. I believe the government of Greece would be willing to put troops on the line to defend Cyprus if she came under further attack by Turkey. After all, this is what the Joint Defence Doctrine is all about.

You are isolated in what you say in Greece for sure. If not completely isolated then of the very small minority. Some GCs may agree with you because of a resentment towards Greece, for the problems of 1974, this is natural. But even those in Cyprus are in the minority, and they have much more of a reason to dislike Greece than what you do.

[DT.]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

It is well known that in some areas in the aegean there cannot be an extension bsc the Greek and Turkish land borders are very close.

If you are uneducated i think the only one that has to ask his mother is your little complexized self.

Turkey is legally covered and so is Greece,based on the interpretation of the Treaties each country makes,thus resulting the issue to be considered a complicated legal issue that Greece has been hoping to settle in the Hague.

Maybe you should also ask another complex family member of yours to explain what dispute means.

That will reassure you,while you have a good night in the bouzoukia parading your typical village mentality.

SN the procedure where there is coastline closer then 24 miles (12 miles for each country) is to split the difference between the 2 coasts. I did my disssertation on this for my BA and from my research i found that if Greece extended its sea to 12 miles then the % of the Aegean it would own would change from (this is by memory but the proportions are correct)

45% Greek waters
10% Turkish
45% International

to

75% Greek waters
6% Turkish
19% International

You can see why Turkey declared a cassus beli...she has no right to insist on such a thing as per any agreement however due to her millitary might what does not get covered by agreements gets covered by the threat of war. (sometimes even war)

Yes you might be right about the % distribution of the waters.As far as i am aware Greece and Turkey in the meantime have signed bilateral treaties on many islands concerning the waters,hence each side chooses to overide the L treaty,when it serves their interests and interpretate the interim treaties differently,which causes the legall clashes and the ''harsh rhetoric'' by both sides.

is still doesn't explain why greece is not allowed by its unfriendly neighbour to extend its sea to 12 miles like every other country has including that unfriendly neighbour.

it would be nice for a reply SN, if nothing else for your continuing reputation on this forum as someone who is not afraid to go up against a large majoriy of their own kind. I'd like you to back this up with logic now.

[SN]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

It is well known that in some areas in the aegean there cannot be an extension bsc the Greek and Turkish land borders are very close.

If you are uneducated i think the only one that has to ask his mother is your little complexized self.

Turkey is legally covered and so is Greece,based on the interpretation of the Treaties each country makes,thus resulting the issue to be considered a complicated legal issue that Greece has been hoping to settle in the Hague.

Maybe you should also ask another complex family member of yours to explain what dispute means.

That will reassure you,while you have a good night in the bouzoukia parading your typical village mentality.

SN the procedure where there is coastline closer then 24 miles (12 miles for each country) is to split the difference between the 2 coasts. I did my disssertation on this for my BA and from my research i found that if Greece extended its sea to 12 miles then the % of the Aegean it would own would change from (this is by memory but the proportions are correct)

45% Greek waters
10% Turkish
45% International

to

75% Greek waters
6% Turkish
19% International

You can see why Turkey declared a cassus beli...she has no right to insist on such a thing as per any agreement however due to her millitary might what does not get covered by agreements gets covered by the threat of war. (sometimes even war)

Yes you might be right about the % distribution of the waters.As far as i am aware Greece and Turkey in the meantime have signed bilateral treaties on many islands concerning the waters,hence each side chooses to overide the L treaty,when it serves their interests and interpretate the interim treaties differently,which causes the legall clashes and the ''harsh rhetoric'' by both sides.

is still doesn't explain why greece is not allowed by its unfriendly neighbour to extend its sea to 12 miles like every other country has including that unfriendly neighbour.

it would be nice for a reply SN, if nothing else for your continuing reputation on this forum as someone who is not afraid to go up against a large majoriy of their own kind. I'd like you to back this up with logic now.

But i have already answered,thats why i said to Simon we are doing rounds.I answered both to you and Alexis.

It is merely a legal issue.Greece interpretates the treaties the other way round.Turkey the other way around.

I dont see how Greece cant expand the waters.Turkey answers casus beli saying that they are leggally covered and Greece answers let go to Hague to be legally covered.So it does not expand it to be legally covered.
I dont how Greece cant expand ON the condition they go to Hague and Greece wins.Greece wants to be legally covered to continue her agenda of control.So is Turkey.

[Simon]

Greece has not YET expanded because of the threat of war with Turkey. It has not yet gone to the Hague because Turkey refuses to settle the dispute this way. Greece's position is clearly supported by international law no matter how you interpret the clear provisions.

[SN]

DT provided, and I have stated clear evidence of Turkey's intentions, and Greece's legally sound position regarding the Aegean. Therefore, as you have not responded to these points, I take it you concede that your country is on safe grounds in that particular dispute.


However, It is clear that you have neither the awareness nor flexibility to ensure your views are consistent.

Firstly, you stated that Human Rights Watchdogs substantiated what you say. Well now, I have showed you to be wrong, as none say what you have; to which you simply moderate your claims to 'condemning' Greece. This itself is quite amusing. The fact is, no reputable organisation would say such things, because they are not true. You're ridiculously exaggerated allegations are there to be laughed at, as I pointed out before. Yes, Greece can make improvements, but the way you promote your cause does you no favours, and you will certainly lose credibility with your terminology. Greece is still a relatively new nation, and progress has been, and will continue to be made. Your criticisms are unfair to say the least. I noticed that you indicated that you were beaten by Greek Police in a different thread; I wonder whether such personal experiences has spawned a resentment within you, towards Greece.

You have provided no sufficient information that substantiate your claims. The minority situation is how I described (which I noticed you did not actually dispute) as are the other disputes.

Your country is European, being 'European' does not mean being 'perfect'. Ask France.

While the Eniaio Amyntiko Dogma you mention is a sign of support to Cyprus by Greece,someone neutral could view it as Greece's vain attempt to geopolitically control more and more the area.

This is the type of response I have come to expect from you. You seem obsessed with this notion that Greece seeks to dominate the whole region. You perhaps harbour hopes of a neo-Greek empire. It really is incredulous. I provide you with evidence that Greece does support the RoC, you respond by suggesting Greece just wants to dominate the region. What a load of rubbish (and either way it is still support for the RoC no matter what the motives are). The RoC would not have such agreements if it did not believe it was in its interests. Greece is simply supporting GCs against a common enemy, however, I wouldn't expect you to understand this. Furthermore, any nation in the world tries to make its presence felt in its region and wants to be important. With Turkey trying to dominate the region militarily (i.e. Cyprus, Greece, Iraq, Armenia etc) Greece is also trying to maintain itself as an important player in the region. Absolutely nothing wrong with this. Like I said before, it relates to NATIONAL INTEREST.

My very presence on a Cypriot forum prooves exactly what you said on your last paragraph that Greeks do care about Cyprus.But why do they care or consider Cyprus an important national issue?Did you get what i have been saying all these days?
Merely bsc the Greek citizens are cought up in Greece's constant interference to the Cyprus issue since your independence and before in 1960.So i wouldnt be suprised if 90% said that the Cyprus issue is our most important national issue.
In reality the Greek citizens would not want to be a part of a war that has to do with Cyprus.I mean what does Cyprus has to do with the sovereign rights of my own country???It is not a selfish thing,rather a depiction of reality.Take a poll and ask the question how many Greek citizens would want to die or go to war for Cyprus.That might elluminate you.Apart from some rather retarded elements of the Greek diaspora,the Elladites in Greece are quite detached to Cyprus.

So now Greeks do care about Cyprus? You need to make up your mind, as I don't have to much time for inconsistences. A moment a go, Greeks do not give a shit, now 90% would consider it a most important issue? Greeks care because it is a national issue. Greeks care because they feel that the Greek junta takes a large part of the blame for what happened in Cyprus. Greeks care because they have close cultural, religious and identity ties with Greek Cypriots; and they share a common mistrust of Turkey. Greece cares because it is inextricably entangled in Cyprus' history. You should care and want to help Cyprus because your country helped create the problems. Your willingness to just walk away now things are getting tough constitutes cowardice and selfishness. Further, your suggested poll is quite frankly ridiculous. Take a poll and ask how many Brits would die for Iraq before the war. And yet, there are still British troops there, dying. I believe the government of Greece would be willing to put troops on the line to defend Cyprus if she came under further attack by Turkey. After all, this is what the Joint Defence Doctrine is all about.

You are isolated in what you say in Greece for sure. If not completely isolated then of the very small minority. Some GCs may agree with you because of a resentment towards Greece, for the problems of 1974, this is natural. But even those in Cyprus are in the minority, and they have much more of a reason to dislike Greece than what you do.

Does it even require an answer?What i said covers you pefectly.You just twist my words here and there just to do what?Proove that Greece cares?

I was crystal clear.It is not a matter of stubborness,selfishness or cowardness.I just do not want Greece to continue being a guarantator to Cyprus.I already explained the reasons.
For your info one of my best friends is GC and we completely agree on most views.

Since now that democracy has been established to Greece and we did our part in selling out Cyprus during the Junda,lets stop getting involved.

While i would like even unilateraly Greece to back down,the ideal would be bilaterally Greece and Turkey stop being guarantators and involved all the time.You people should sit down without Greece or Turkey.

[SN]

Greece has not YET expanded because of the threat of war with Turkey. It has not yet gone to the Hague because Turkey refuses to settle the dispute this way. Greece's position is clearly supported by international law no matter how you interpret the clear provisions.

Well its not only me interpreting the ''clear'' provision as such.Is Turkey as well...

[Simon]

No it doesn't require an answer from you, because it is clear you don't have any! What you have said covers nothing. It's just your ramblings about your personal views that are backed up by no facts.

I have not twisted any of your words; merely quoted and exposed them. I have proved that Greece cares, it is not my problem if you choose to ignore blatant facts.

You want Greece to desert Cyprus, I know, you have said many times. If this is not cowardice and selfishness I do not know what is. You have explained your reasons which I have repeatedly discredited. However, you seem to really struggle to come to terms with this, instead, choosing to say "I've already given my reasons for this and that." Quite frankly, your reasons cannot stand up to even the most basic of scrutiny, as I have shown. You agree with one GC, Wow, that must mean you're right.

Now you've sold Cyprus out, stop getting involved!!! This is shocking. What is more shocking is that you are serious. Another display of cowardice and selfishness. I am afraid it is not as simple as that. Like I have said, Greece is inextricably involved, and will be until a conclusion is reached. If anything else, it is the least Greece owes GCs.

If Greece and Turkey stopped involvement, we would have a solution, as it would require 40,000 Turkish troops to leave. However, while Turkey fervently supports TCs with their huge military, I would consider it absolutely unforgivable for Greece to desert GCs now. Especially considering she helped bring all those Turkish troops to our beloved Cyprus in the first place.

[Simon]

[quote]Well its not only me interpreting the ''clear'' provision as such.Is Turkey as well...[/quote]


Turkey merely interpret things in the light of their huge military and US support. I mean, consider Cyprus, they blatantly breach international law and UN Resolutions every day when occupying our island. So please do not tell me that Turkey is genuinely interpreting international agreements. They have used violent blackmail against Greece (and Cyprus) this whole time.

[istor]

What about Greece and Turkey leaving Cyprus alone?Once and for good??

hahahahahahahaha !

Before or after Turkish 'brave' army leaves the island ??!!

Get real. This is the main problem of the island. Turks will never leave the country but if they make Greeks sail themselves to Turks.