Cyprus-Forum.com

[SN]

[quote="SN
Internally Greece uses this artificial argument that Greece is somehow threatened by Turkey,mainly to propagandize its people and to expand its imperialistic agenda.Note that no neighbouring country to Turkey has gone to the extremes Greece is going.

Where did you find the imperialistic agenda of Greece ?
Is Greece going to invade to Turkey?(and nobody knows it)[/quote]

No,that is not possible,neither i believe Greece aims to invade Turkey.

What Greece wants is to control geopolitically more and more the area.While a small minority of people might dream Istanbul as their capital,it is obvious that Greece doesnt have those dreams.
But that does not go against the claim that Greece on its effort to geopolitically control and establish its dominance goes to extremes that would normally be met with any neighbouring country's response.

[SN]

Funny how you copy the exact positions of ankara and present them as your own. Grow up kid, you thought it would be cool to be one of those 'progressive' paparologists that you hung out with during your college years in the Uk where your mommy sent you to 'study' after your miserable failure in the panhellenic exams, but you ended up being laughed at by Greeks, Turks, Gcs and Tcs alike!! Yes, your idiotic mentality is THAT transparent.

Hahaha.That is so bullshit and arbitrary claims one can might make about a person they dont even know.Off course it does not require an answer as it only shows the extent of your complex.I will allow you to become more and more ridiculed as you have no clue what so ever regarding who i am.

Bringing up my age,my alleged non-Greekness and my spelling errors(which are completely out of context) as an argument against me prooves once again your personal complex and your inability to face another Greek citizen that does not give a shit about Greece's detrimental policies.While i have growing up to do,you have to do a big reality check.

All what you say is only extremely typical of Greek/village and complex mentality.One would wish the Turks to know what that mentality is, so as to see how transparent you are on your extremely biased and arbitrary claims about me.

As far as i remember,specially this quote about the panhellenic exams was something a few of my aunts in a Greek village in the middle of nowhere used to say,to other people.I doubt it they could even spell their name...I call that typical village complex Greek.In fact,most people do.

[DT.]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

It is well known that in some areas in the aegean there cannot be an extension bsc the Greek and Turkish land borders are very close.

If you are uneducated i think the only one that has to ask his mother is your little complexized self.

Turkey is legally covered and so is Greece,based on the interpretation of the Treaties each country makes,thus resulting the issue to be considered a complicated legal issue that Greece has been hoping to settle in the Hague.

Maybe you should also ask another complex family member of yours to explain what dispute means.

That will reassure you,while you have a good night in the bouzoukia parading your typical village mentality.

SN the procedure where there is coastline closer then 24 miles (12 miles for each country) is to split the difference between the 2 coasts. I did my disssertation on this for my BA and from my research i found that if Greece extended its sea to 12 miles then the % of the Aegean it would own would change from (this is by memory but the proportions are correct)

45% Greek waters
10% Turkish
45% International

to

75% Greek waters
6% Turkish
19% International

You can see why Turkey declared a cassus beli...she has no right to insist on such a thing as per any agreement however due to her millitary might what does not get covered by agreements gets covered by the threat of war. (sometimes even war)

[SN]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

It is well known that in some areas in the aegean there cannot be an extension bsc the Greek and Turkish land borders are very close.

If you are uneducated i think the only one that has to ask his mother is your little complexized self.

Turkey is legally covered and so is Greece,based on the interpretation of the Treaties each country makes,thus resulting the issue to be considered a complicated legal issue that Greece has been hoping to settle in the Hague.

Maybe you should also ask another complex family member of yours to explain what dispute means.

That will reassure you,while you have a good night in the bouzoukia parading your typical village mentality.

SN the procedure where there is coastline closer then 24 miles (12 miles for each country) is to split the difference between the 2 coasts. I did my disssertation on this for my BA and from my research i found that if Greece extended its sea to 12 miles then the % of the Aegean it would own would change from (this is by memory but the proportions are correct)

45% Greek waters
10% Turkish
45% International

to

75% Greek waters
6% Turkish
19% International

You can see why Turkey declared a cassus beli...she has no right to insist on such a thing as per any agreement however due to her millitary might what does not get covered by agreements gets covered by the threat of war. (sometimes even war)

Yes you might be right about the % distribution of the waters.As far as i am aware Greece and Turkey in the meantime have signed bilateral treaties on many islands concerning the waters,hence each side chooses to overide the L treaty,when it serves their interests and interpretate the interim treaties differently,which causes the legall clashes and the ''harsh rhetoric'' by both sides.

[DT.]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

It is well known that in some areas in the aegean there cannot be an extension bsc the Greek and Turkish land borders are very close.

If you are uneducated i think the only one that has to ask his mother is your little complexized self.

Turkey is legally covered and so is Greece,based on the interpretation of the Treaties each country makes,thus resulting the issue to be considered a complicated legal issue that Greece has been hoping to settle in the Hague.

Maybe you should also ask another complex family member of yours to explain what dispute means.

That will reassure you,while you have a good night in the bouzoukia parading your typical village mentality.

SN the procedure where there is coastline closer then 24 miles (12 miles for each country) is to split the difference between the 2 coasts. I did my disssertation on this for my BA and from my research i found that if Greece extended its sea to 12 miles then the % of the Aegean it would own would change from (this is by memory but the proportions are correct)

45% Greek waters
10% Turkish
45% International

to

75% Greek waters
6% Turkish
19% International

You can see why Turkey declared a cassus beli...she has no right to insist on such a thing as per any agreement however due to her millitary might what does not get covered by agreements gets covered by the threat of war. (sometimes even war)

Yes you might be right about the % distribution of the waters.As far as i am aware Greece and Turkey in the meantime have signed bilateral treaties on many islands concerning the waters,hence each side chooses to overide the L treaty,when it serves their interests and interpretate the interim treaties differently,which causes the legall clashes and the ''harsh rhetoric'' by both sides.

is still doesn't explain why greece is not allowed by its unfriendly neighbour to extend its sea to 12 miles like every other country has including that unfriendly neighbour.

[seleucus Nicator]

What Greece wants is to control geopolitically more and more the area.While a small minority of people might dream Istanbul as their capital,it is obvious that Greece doesnt have those dreams.
But that does not go against the claim that Greece on its effort to geopolitically control and establish its dominance goes to extremes that would normally be met with any neighbouring country's response.

I dont know how did you made this conclusion about the geopolitical control of Greece in the area because the reality is different.If the Greek government continue this kind of policy (just giving) without taking something back from Turkey in a few years we will speak about the finlandization of Greece.I dont know if you do like the relations of Greece and Turkey to be like the relations of Finland and Russia personally i like to have relation of mutual respect .I think that you overestimate the capabilities of the Greek state that cannot even avoid the burnt of Parnitha from incompetence .

[DT.]

Our friend SN has made some bald statements which unfortunately have not been backed up to an acceptable level.

[Simon]

Spot on DT. SN simply wants Greece to make all the concessions in all its foreign policy issues: and leave Cyprus to the Turks. This has come from his own mouth. Therefore, I must question his motives. On such a basis, I'm not too interested in anything else he has to say, other than to thank God that his voice in Greece is, if not completely isolated, of the very small minority. Some of his accusations against Greece can really, only be laughed at, and shouldn't even be given the time of day.

[SN]

Spot on DT. SN simply wants Greece to make all the concessions in all its foreign policy issues: and leave Cyprus to the Turks. This has come from his own mouth. Therefore, I must question his motives. On such a basis, I'm not too interested in anything else he has to say, other than to thank God that his voice in Greece is, if not completely isolated, of the very small minority. Some of his accusations against Greece can really, only be laughed at, and shouldn't even be given the time of day.

I will answer only to Simon on this one.

It is ok to question my motives,it is very healthy if you ask me.My attack on Greece though is not without a base.
All i said is backed up in the International community(Helsinki watch,EU,UN).You have to see the bigger picture.There is NO NEED to compare Greece to Turkey.

Greece has been on the EU the past 30 years and is supposed to be more of a democratic state.While Greece has nothing to fear if it recognizes Macedonia under its constitutional name(since Macedonia is on the verge of becoming an Albanian-SlavMacedonian federation,thus loosing its significance as the country of ''ethnic Macedonians").That will further help the stabilization of the Balkans specially after the Kosovo independence from Serbia.

It has nothing to fear if it recognizes a Turkish and Macedonian minority inside its borders which only accounts a fracture of Greece's population(3% the most, both Macedonian and Turkish minority,which are indigenous population both of Macedonia and Thrace).Would you think that Turkey would invade Thrace just because a minority making up only 2% of Greece's population,to make a Turkish state???That is the only laughable claim,not my statements.

While i dont deny your links to what you might perceive as your motherland,personally i dont want Greece to have anything to do with Cyprus.And i abide by it.I believe it only deepens the divisions within the Greek Cypriot population.
Regarding your over optimism that the Elladites support Cyprus....that is merely your wishfull thinking and you know it.The overwhelming majority of the Greeks want neutrallity and would not even want to go to war defending Cyprus.I personally dont believe the average Greek citizen gives a shit about Cyprus.I would be suprised if they knew more than two cities in Cyprus.

[Simon]

SN, I really can't be arsed with you, because your comments are there to be laughed at most of the time; but I will reply this once, considering you chose only to reply to me (which is quite obviously because you have nothing to say to DT, when he provides you with quite clear legal evidence that Greece is correct in the Aegean dispute and Turkey is the aggressor).

You argue, that what you have said is backed up by Human Rights watchdogs. OK, so show me one quote from the EU or UN, where is states that Greece is a fascist state, with one of the worst Human Rights records in the world? Where does it say that Greece is a shit hole? Where does it say that Greece is a Nazi state? This is indeed what you have said repeatedly, is it not? These are not the words of someone I take seriously. What they will say is that Greece has problems and improvements to make. What state hasn't? Doesn't quite follow your claims though does it?

You tell me to see the bigger picture, and then with the very next breath you make the unforgivable mistake of missing the whole picture. You MUST consider Greece's actions in the light of Turkey's, because when you have a much larger, aggressive neighbor, you must react to the threats and developments to defend your national interests. That is one concept I do not believe you grasp: NATIONAL INTERESTS.

You repeatedly ramble about the "Macedonian cause". The FYROM has a history of dissipating propaganda regarding the ancient Greek Macedonians, claiming ownership of ancient Greek history and culture, including in their original Constitution irredentist objectives against the modern day Greek state, and generally acting as an annoyance to Greece. Now, whether the FYROM has the power to see through these underlying aims is irrelevant, Greece simply cannot allow a state to behave in such a way on its border. What do you believe is the purpose of the FYROM naming their main airport after Alexander the Great? One state cannot be allowed to usurp the history of another. To bring this matter to a conclusion, Greece is willing to negotiate this issue and has shown flexibility, however the FYROM refuses. Greece has further shown its reasonableness in this dispute by improving its relations with the FYROM and becoming its largest foreign investor. Conversely, if many in Greek Macedonia believes in the propaganda of the FYROM in the same way you do, then Greece could have every reason to worry about recognising them under their "constitutional name".

The minority issue: I believe that AlexISS has dealt with this repeatedly. Greece recognises a Muslim minority, which is made up of numerous ethnic groups, including Turkish, which is what the Greek Foreign Ministry itself states. It does not label them all 'Turkish', because they are not. Simple as that. What is MORE IMPORTANT, is, do they enjoy a good quality of life, and are they treated as equal citizens? The answer is clearly Yes. Hardly a Nazi state is it? Are Greeks living in Turkey given the same privilege? The answer is NO.

If Greece were to enter a war with Turkey (for whatever reason) I certainly believe it would be Turkey's main objective to occupy Thrace and populate it with more Turks (see Cyprus) and to probably do the same to the islands close to Turkey's border. Guess what the excuse will be? Yes, protecting their minority (see Cyprus). Learn from history. You must understand that Greek Cypriots and Greeks share a common enemy. You believe that by breaking your link with Cyprus, Greco-Turkish relations will be normalised. This is cowardice stupidity. Greece has many, many disputes and historical distrust with Turkey, which will not just vanish. I do not think you quite understand the fact the Turkey is one of the most nationalistic countries in the world, and underestimating this, and their politically powerful military is extremely dangerous. As we have seen before, it does not take much for Turkey to consider declaring a casus belli. Greece is clearly within her legal right to expand 12 nautical miles in the Aegean, and Turkey says this is a casus belli? You pointed out before that Turkey was willing to enter bilateral discussions? What you failed to mention in your blinded bias of the situation against your own country, is that Greece offered to take the matter to an international court. Turkey refused. I'll tell you why, because Turkey wants to exclude international law, and simply set up bilateral talks, so as to draw Greece into more concessions. However, Greece is wise enough to stick to her guns, knowing she has international law on her side.

You repeatedly state that you want Greece to end all support for Greek Cypriots, claiming that this is for the good of GCs. However, you should also consider that Greece is very implicated in this whole problem, and simply walking away now, would be extremely selfish and damaging to the GC cause. It would not be beneficial to GCs at all, this is simply your dressing up of the situation so as to suit your own purposes. If Greece ended its involvement today, the GCs would still have all the same problems with Turkey, only that we would have less support trying to solve them. GCs already control their own affairs; Greece does not interfere to a great extent, and therefore Greece is not the problem today, as you seek to claim. There is little division in the GC population today...so I haven't got a clue where you got this from. The GCs are unanimous that the problem is 40,000 Turkish troops, that want to upgrade a breakaway puppet regime into a fully functioning state. GCs want to unite. Greece supporting the GCs bargaining position is certainly not a hindrance to any solution. Believing the contrary is just plain crass.

Greece's support for Cyprus is my wishful thinking you say? You really do need to look around you slightly more. What is the Joint Defence Doctrine about, if not support? Why do Greek and Cypriot forces engage in joint combat training? Why are there Greek troops in Cyprus? Even if only symoblic, the point is, they are there as a show of support. Why does Greece politically support the RoC in all its aims? Finally, the average Greek does not think like you claim, just another concoction to support your aims. I speak to many Greeks and I have indeed just come across a recent poll myself, in which around 60% of Greeks considered Cyprus an important issue for Greece; and Cyprus is still clearly an important issue in Greek Foreign Policy, so stop wasting my time with baseless suggestions.