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[alexISS]

Turkey not only violates the FIR of Athens, she violates the Greek airspace. Regarding the Turkish "casus belli", not only is Turkey threatening Greece with war if she expands her territorial waters, but Turkey has ALREADY done so for her black sea coast...

[SN]

Turkey not only violates the FIR of Athens, she violates the Greek airspace. Regarding the Turkish "casus belli", not only is Turkey threatening Greece with war if she expands her territorial waters, but Turkey has ALREADY done so for her black sea coast...

Or that is what your uncle says,or your villager relatives...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute

[edit] The FIR demarcation
By virtue of an agreement signed in 1952, the whole airspace over the Aegean, up to the boundary of the national airspace of Turkey, is assigned to Athens FIR, administered by Greece. Shortly after the Cyprus crisis of 1974, Turkey unilaterally attempted to change this arrangement, issuing a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) stating that it would take over the administration of the eastern half of the Aegean airspace, including the national airspace of the Greek islands in that area. Greece responded with a declaration rejecting this move, and declaring the disputed zone unsafe for aviation due to the conflicting claims to authority. This led to some disruption in civil aviation in the area. Turkey later changed its stance, and has since 1980 returned to recognizing Athens FIR in its original demarcation.[5] In practice, the FIR demarcation is currently no longer a disputed issue.




This disagreement has led to similar practical consequences as the issue of 6 vs. 10 miles of national airspace, as Greece considers all Turkish military flights not registered with its FIR authorities as transgressions of international air traffic regulations, and routinely has its own air force jets intercepting the Turkish ones, claiming that this is in the interest of aviation safety. In popular perception in Greece, the issue of allegedly illegal Turkish flights in the international part of Athens FIR is often confused with that of the Turkish intrusions in the disputed outer 4-mile (7.4 km) belt of Greek airspace. However, in careful official usage, Greek authorities and media distinguish between "violations" ("παραβιάσεις") of the national airspace, and "transgressions" ("παραβάσεις") of traffic regulations, i.e. of the FIR.

The point being that Greece has one of the most evolved Airforces in the world.It has nothing to fear from Turkey's alleged agressiveness.

[SN]

Someody please correct me but were the Aegean Islands supposed to remain de-militarised (apart from locally conscripted contingents) according to the Laussanne Treaty? And does it or should the airspace be included? Is anything "in Force"? GCs need not answer but are welcome. Is SN still around or has he gone aground?
Regards
DA

Here is what neutral sources and not Greek sources claim about the de-militarisation of the islands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute


Demilitarized status
The question of the demilitarized status of some major Greek islands is complicated by a number of facts. Several of the Greek islands in the eastern Aegean as well as the Turkish straits region were placed under various regimes of demilitarization in different international treaties. The regimes developed over time, resulting in difficulties of treaty-interpretation. The military status of the islands in question did however not constitute a serious problem in the bilateral relations until the Cyprus crisis of 1974, after which both Greece and Turkey re-interpreted the stipulations of the treaties. Greece, claiming an inalienable right to defend itself against Turkish aggression, reinforced its military and National Guard forces in the region. Turkey, on the other hand, denounces this as an aggressive act by Greece and as a breach of international treaties.[4] From a legal perspective, three groups of islands may be distinguished: (a) the islands right off the Turkish Dardanelles straits, i.e. Lemnos and Samothrace; (b) the Dodecanese islands in the southeast Aegean; and (c) the remaining northeast Aegean islands (Lesbos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria).



While the L treaty is not broken,both Greece and Turkey continue to use it as an excuse to promote their anachronistic agendas.
Mainly the minority issue is based on the L Treaty,where both countries insist on not recognizing ethnic minorities but only religious one.
Each country's interpretation of the L treaty is based according their agendas.

Specially regarding Greece the propaganda that the Greek officials use is the ''constant fear'' that we allegedly have from Turkey.Which is a bullshit claim all together.

As i said in the past Greece is not Cyprus.It has one of the most modern airforces in the world(in fact i witnessed that first hand since i did my military service on the airforce).Greece has nothing to fear from Turkey since Turkey has made it clear that it respects Greece's sovereing rights.

Another interesting point is that while the so-called violations from Turkey of the Athens FIR,Turkey has repeatdly stated that it recognizes the Athens FIR after the 80's.


Internally Greece uses this artificial argument that Greece is somehow threatened by Turkey,mainly to propagandize its people and to expand its imperialistic agenda.Note that no neighbouring country to Turkey has gone to the extremes Greece is going.

If Turkey has a share of responsibilities about the current situation,Greece has also a big share.

If Greece has nothing to fear from Turkey then why doesn't she increase her jurisdiction to 12 miles out to sea like every other country in the

world?

Bsc it is obviously a complicated legal issue.Both Greece and Turkey are legally covered of what they claim.It has nothing to do with agression.

[alexISS]

Turkey not only violates the FIR of Athens, she violates the Greek airspace. Regarding the Turkish "casus belli", not only is Turkey threatening Greece with war if she expands her territorial waters, but Turkey has ALREADY done so for her black sea coast...

Or that is what your uncle says,or your villager relatives...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute

[edit] The FIR demarcation
By virtue of an agreement signed in 1952, the whole airspace over the Aegean, up to the boundary of the national airspace of Turkey, is assigned to Athens FIR, administered by Greece. Shortly after the Cyprus crisis of 1974, Turkey unilaterally attempted to change this arrangement, issuing a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) stating that it would take over the administration of the eastern half of the Aegean airspace, including the national airspace of the Greek islands in that area. Greece responded with a declaration rejecting this move, and declaring the disputed zone unsafe for aviation due to the conflicting claims to authority. This led to some disruption in civil aviation in the area. Turkey later changed its stance, and has since 1980 returned to recognizing Athens FIR in its original demarcation.[5] In practice, the FIR demarcation is currently no longer a disputed issue.




This disagreement has led to similar practical consequences as the issue of 6 vs. 10 miles of national airspace, as Greece considers all Turkish military flights not registered with its FIR authorities as transgressions of international air traffic regulations, and routinely has its own air force jets intercepting the Turkish ones, claiming that this is in the interest of aviation safety. In popular perception in Greece, the issue of allegedly illegal Turkish flights in the international part of Athens FIR is often confused with that of the Turkish intrusions in the disputed outer 4-mile (7.4 km) belt of Greek airspace. However, in careful official usage, Greek authorities and media distinguish between "violations" ("παραβιάσεις") of the national airspace, and "transgressions" ("παραβάσεις") of traffic regulations, i.e. of the FIR.

The point being that Greece has one of the most evolved Airforces in the world.It has nothing to fear from Turkey's alleged agressiveness.

And you should listen to your mother who, being a public servant and raising you with money paid by the Greek state, must have told you that you do not bite the hand that feeds you. That for bringing family into the discussion.

On the issue of the Turkish violations of Greek airspace, I don't see in your quotes where it mentions that they don't happen. Turkish aircrafts go as far as fly over Rhodes, Samos, Chios, even Santorini(!) from time to time. The Turkish general staff doesn't even attempt to deny such violations when they occur, but YOU do...

Now to the FIR issue. Turkey does indeed recognise the Greek FIR. That's not the problem. The problem is that Turkey, contrary to the rest of the world, does not accept that the FIR authorities have control over military aircrafts, and that's why they enter the Athens' FIR without submitting flight plans

[SN]

Turkey not only violates the FIR of Athens, she violates the Greek airspace. Regarding the Turkish "casus belli", not only is Turkey threatening Greece with war if she expands her territorial waters, but Turkey has ALREADY done so for her black sea coast...

Or that is what your uncle says,or your villager relatives...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute

[edit] The FIR demarcation
By virtue of an agreement signed in 1952, the whole airspace over the Aegean, up to the boundary of the national airspace of Turkey, is assigned to Athens FIR, administered by Greece. Shortly after the Cyprus crisis of 1974, Turkey unilaterally attempted to change this arrangement, issuing a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) stating that it would take over the administration of the eastern half of the Aegean airspace, including the national airspace of the Greek islands in that area. Greece responded with a declaration rejecting this move, and declaring the disputed zone unsafe for aviation due to the conflicting claims to authority. This led to some disruption in civil aviation in the area. Turkey later changed its stance, and has since 1980 returned to recognizing Athens FIR in its original demarcation.[5] In practice, the FIR demarcation is currently no longer a disputed issue.




This disagreement has led to similar practical consequences as the issue of 6 vs. 10 miles of national airspace, as Greece considers all Turkish military flights not registered with its FIR authorities as transgressions of international air traffic regulations, and routinely has its own air force jets intercepting the Turkish ones, claiming that this is in the interest of aviation safety. In popular perception in Greece, the issue of allegedly illegal Turkish flights in the international part of Athens FIR is often confused with that of the Turkish intrusions in the disputed outer 4-mile (7.4 km) belt of Greek airspace. However, in careful official usage, Greek authorities and media distinguish between "violations" ("παραβιάσεις") of the national airspace, and "transgressions" ("παραβάσεις") of traffic regulations, i.e. of the FIR.

The point being that Greece has one of the most evolved Airforces in the world.It has nothing to fear from Turkey's alleged agressiveness.

And you should listen to your mother who, being a public servant and raising you with money paid by the Greek state, must have told you that you do not bite the hand that feeds you. That for bringing family into the discussion.

Bringing up your family is merely on the context of how most compexized Greeks are brought up.Wont you think?It gives us info on why modern Greeks believe Greece is somehow better than Turkey,while Greece has a share of responsibilities.

Regarding who's money i spend...you d'know better than me right?


About the violations,the quote covers you perfectly.The area is disputed.Both countries are legally covered of what they say.It is merely a complicated legal issue that has nothing to do with agression.Ocassionally both countries use the word agression to promote their agendas.

Greece is merely paying the price of her show-off tactics.
Each story has two sides,not only what your relatives teach you.

[alexISS]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

[SN]

Turkey has expanded her territorial waters to 12 miles in the Black sea, yet she threatens Greece with war if she does the same. This is not a "complicated legal issue", it's a straightforward violation of international law. Ask your mother

It is well known that in some areas in the aegean there cannot be an extension bsc the Greek and Turkish land borders are very close.

If you are uneducated i think the only one that has to ask his mother is your little complexized self.

Turkey is legally covered and so is Greece,based on the interpretation of the Treaties each country makes,thus resulting the issue to be considered a complicated legal issue that Greece has been hoping to settle in the Hague.

Maybe you should also ask another complex family member of yours to explain what dispute means.

That will reassure you,while you have a good night in the bouzoukia parading your typical village mentality.

[alexISS]

Funny how you copy the exact positions of ankara and present them as your own. Grow up kid, you thought it would be cool to be one of those 'progressive' paparologists that you hung out with during your college years in the Uk where your mommy sent you to 'study' after your miserable failure in the panhellenic exams, but you ended up being laughed at by Greeks, Turks, Gcs and Tcs alike!! Yes, your idiotic mentality is THAT transparent.

[seleucus Nicator]

We have 2 issues a.territorial waters b.continental shelf
Continental shelf is a legal dispute open to negotiations, interpretations etc
Territorial waters is a different issue; UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is pretty clear on the subject. Greece took the issue of continental shelf (not 6/12 miles) to the ICJ on 1976. Turkey claimed that the Court has no jurisdiction. On 1978 the Court decided that, under the conditions at that moment, it had no jurisdiction.

Turkey on the other hand ,support that is not a party to 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, nor it is obliged to be one. In any case, 12 miles is not defined as the actual and certain territorial waters. It is the "maximum" it can be. For Aegean Sea, 12 miles leave Turkey in fact no area to even breath, blocks free passage to the international waters.
But according UNCLOS Article 17: "Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea." So, no, free passage to international waters will not be blocked.
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_ ... OS-TOC.htm

Turkey also dispute the ownership of many small islets-islands even Gaydos (behind Crete) or when a Turkish jet pass over a Greek island shows us an aggressive attitude from the Turkish side that dont stop only on the legal lines of the dispute.
Well how do you propose to stop this aggressiveness?

[seleucus Nicator]

[quote="SN
Internally Greece uses this artificial argument that Greece is somehow threatened by Turkey,mainly to propagandize its people and to expand its imperialistic agenda.Note that no neighbouring country to Turkey has gone to the extremes Greece is going.

[/quote]

Where did you find the imperialistic agenda of Greece ?
Is Greece going to invade to Turkey?(and nobody knows it)