Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Halil and denizaksulu I didn't see you complaining about this: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11892

SN apparently wanted to test my Greek, so I couldn't deny this to our intellectual guest from the motherland.

[alexISS]

SN, I am very disappointed in your posts I have to say. Let me state why. You seem to continuously point out Greece's past policies (i.e. 1913) etc, and consider these in isolation, without considering what is occuring in the rest of the region, and without considering why Greece's attitudes are as they are today; instead, merely putting them down to "colonialism" and "Nazism". Allow me to enlighten you; what was the purpose of Bulgaria during the Balkan Wars? What was the purpose of the Ottoman Empire? What is the purpose of FYROM when they spread propaganda incessantly and name their Airport after Alexander the Great? What is the purpose of the modern day Turkish state, when they expand their territorial waters to the limit allowed under International law, but threaten Greece with War if they do the same in the Aegean? What is there purpose when they constantly violate Greek airspace, hence CAUSING dog-fights? What is the purpose of Turkey when it suddenly decides to claim Imia and several other islets in the Aegean? What is the purpose of Turkey when, allowed to intervene in Cyprus to preserve the constitution, instead, creates a new Turkish state, colonizes the area with over 100,000 settlers and keeps 40,000 Turkish troops in the area for 33 years and counting?

You must consider the reasons for Greece behaving in the way it does, i.e. not calling the VARIOUS minorities in Thrace, Turkish. When doing this, you must also consider the way in which Greek minorities in the region have been treated. Yet you seem to care very little about this. How have Greeks been treated in Turkey? Far worse than the Turks in Greece. Heard of the Istanbul Pogrom? Greece did not retaliate to this, hence the Turkish minority has exapnded. Perhaps you should mention this, or does that not suite your biased defamation of your country? Greeks have also in the past had a bad time in Albania, have they not?

I do not actually believe it matters too much whether we call them Turkish or Muslim in any event. What matters is, are they treated as equal Greek citizens in everyday life; and I believe the answer to that is Yes. In the past (Balkan Wars), all the nations had populations in various areas, and ALL of them tried to expand their borders, not just Greece. Look at the ethnic cleansing Turkey carried out in Smyrna, ending thousands of years of Greeks living in Anatolia. The minorities of Greece are treated well in comparison to the region and when considering its history; they have flourished and expanded in number. Can Turkey say this? I am not saying that improvements cannot be made, but the way you are criticising Greece is ludicrous and exaggerated to say the very least (i.e. Nazi state) Sorry, I can't help but laugh at that one.

So stop blindly maligning Greece, and consider the whole region, and why Greece behaves like it does. Greece is still a new nation, and it feels threatened by Turkey (a much larger nation on its border, that is extremely nationalistic) and FYROM, which repeatedly has displayed expansionist attitudes towards Greece. It seems to me that the only thing that would make you happy is for Greece to allow itself to be broken-up by its neighbors, and your completely naive, short-sighted and vendetta-like attitude towards Greece, compels me to believe you have an agenda and therefore lose all credit.

P.S. Before you start pleading for multi-culturalism in Greece, perhaps you may want to just think about it a little longer. It is not all it is made out to be: ask the UK.

Hi Simon.
Just one comment on your well written post. Greece infact recognises that there is a Turkish minority in Thrace, as well as a Pomak and a Roma one. All three combined are referred to as the muslim minority of Thrace, since they not only live together in the region, they also share the same religion. What Turkey promotes and demands is the WHOLE muslim minority to be recognised as Turkish, which is obviously unacceptable not only by Greece, but also by every human rights organisation and, of course, the EU, which perfectly understands this and has raised no issues regarding the characterisation of the minority as "muslim"

[SN]

SN, I am very disappointed in your posts I have to say. Let me state why. You seem to continuously point out Greece's past policies (i.e. 1913) etc, and consider these in isolation, without considering what is occuring in the rest of the region, and without considering why Greece's attitudes are as they are today; instead, merely putting them down to "colonialism" and "Nazism". Allow me to enlighten you; what was the purpose of Bulgaria during the Balkan Wars? What was the purpose of the Ottoman Empire? What is the purpose of FYROM when they spread propaganda incessantly and name their Airport after Alexander the Great? What is the purpose of the modern day Turkish state, when they expand their territorial waters to the limit allowed under International law, but threaten Greece with War if they do the same in the Aegean? What is there purpose when they constantly violate Greek airspace, hence CAUSING dog-fights? What is the purpose of Turkey when it suddenly decides to claim Imia and several other islets in the Aegean? What is the purpose of Turkey when, allowed to intervene in Cyprus to preserve the constitution, instead, creates a new Turkish state, colonizes the area with over 100,000 settlers and keeps 40,000 Turkish troops in the area for 33 years and counting?

You must consider the reasons for Greece behaving in the way it does, i.e. not calling the VARIOUS minorities in Thrace, Turkish. When doing this, you must also consider the way in which Greek minorities in the region have been treated. Yet you seem to care very little about this. How have Greeks been treated in Turkey? Far worse than the Turks in Greece. Heard of the Istanbul Pogrom? Greece did not retaliate to this, hence the Turkish minority has exapnded. Perhaps you should mention this, or does that not suite your biased defamation of your country? Greeks have also in the past had a bad time in Albania, have they not?

I do not actually believe it matters too much whether we call them Turkish or Muslim in any event. What matters is, are they treated as equal Greek citizens in everyday life; and I believe the answer to that is Yes. In the past (Balkan Wars), all the nations had populations in various areas, and ALL of them tried to expand their borders, not just Greece. Look at the ethnic cleansing Turkey carried out in Smyrna, ending thousands of years of Greeks living in Anatolia. The minorities of Greece are treated well in comparison to the region and when considering its history; they have flourished and expanded in number. Can Turkey say this? I am not saying that improvements cannot be made, but the way you are criticising Greece is ludicrous and exaggerated to say the very least (i.e. Nazi state) Sorry, I can't help but laugh at that one.

So stop blindly maligning Greece, and consider the whole region, and why Greece behaves like it does. Greece is still a new nation, and it feels threatened by Turkey (a much larger nation on its border, that is extremely nationalistic) and FYROM, which repeatedly has displayed expansionist attitudes towards Greece. It seems to me that the only thing that would make you happy is for Greece to allow itself to be broken-up by its neighbors, and your completely naive, short-sighted and vendetta-like attitude towards Greece, compels me to believe you have an agenda and therefore lose all credit.

P.S. Before you start pleading for multi-culturalism in Greece, perhaps you may want to just think about it a little longer. It is not all it is made out to be: ask the UK.

To claim that Greece feels threaten by Turkey does not withstand.

Greece has been one of the most hardcore enemies of the newly founded Turkish state.

Greece has a share of maltreating Turkish population.While i have never denied Turkey's maltreatment of Greek population,the Greeks are no better.

The Greeks were the first to oppose the Ottoman Empire.The Turks know that they are dealing with the most ''fanatic'' christians in the whole region.

Greece always gave a hard time to Turkey.

Name ONE consession that Greece has done towards Turkey the past 200 years.Just one!!

The Turks have a genuine understanding that it is impossible for them to oppose a fanatic christian nation of 11million people.They can not make Greece shut up bsc of Greece's ''christianity'' which leads to Greece's International support most of the times.

Never in human history has another nation managed to succesfully shut up a nation as big as the Greek nation is,regardless of Turkey's population.
If Turkey could shut up Greece,she would have done so 200 years ago.

Regarding Macedonia your claims also do not withstand.It is ridiculous to believe that Greece feels threatened from Macedonia.It is laughable.


You have to see the bigger picture here.
Greece continues to provoke Turkey in almost anything.While the Kurds cant be taken seriously inside Turkey bsc they still dont have their own independent state,Greece by defenition will be taken very seriously from Turkey....And as expected Greece continues to provoke Turkey.And it will continue to do so.


What also need to be examined is Greece's destabilization policy on the Balkans.What Greece has to loose if it recognizes Macedonia under its constitutional name???I mean what????Land???You know that this is pathetic Greece has tripled in size while all the other neighbours have shrunked.Turkey among them.

Instead of Greece taking advantage of its EU membership and become a stability factor on the Balkans, it chooses to implement fasist like policies to shut up all its neighbours.It constantly provokes Turkey over the Aegean,since you very well know that the bilaretal issue over the Aegean is not settled.Greece chooses to show its dominance over the Aegean by defying Turkey daily.Dogfights happen every day just bsc Greece can not respect Turkey's wish to settle the Aegean issues bilateraly.

It continues to blackmail Albania with the Greek minority in Albania,while in Greece live 650,000 Albanians without any legal rights.Merely on work visas and permits...
It has succesfully blackmailed Bulgaria specially after the fall of communism in order to help them join the EU.And today Bulgaria is the only ''friendly'' nation around.Just bsc Bulgaria has shut up against Greece.
It has repeatdly threatened even the sovereignity of Macedonia and it has implemented embargoes.As said it even went to the extreme to make Macedonia change its flag and constitution.

And you expect me to believe that Greece feels threatened by Macedonia or Turkey?????Greece will never be satisfied....The most recent example was the attrocities the Greeks did against the Turks between 63-74 in Cyprus.

Greeks are incapable to live with the Turks.They are brought up hating Turks bsc of the bullshit fairytales about the Ottoman Empire.

What you are forgetting though is that the Ottoman Empire has been one of the most flexible Empires in the world.Full rights were given to all non-Muslim population.Instead Greeks believe they were extremely oppresed.

But how come Greeks were the first ones to oppose the Ottoman Empire and gradually vitally help to destroy the Empire???
If they were so helpless they would still be like the Kurds today....

Wake up from the b*llshit stories your grandma told you.Greece has a true share of responsibilities.Greece doesnt plan to let Turkey away with anything.The soonest you realise that,the better.

[SN]

SN, I am very disappointed in your posts I have to say. Let me state why. You seem to continuously point out Greece's past policies (i.e. 1913) etc, and consider these in isolation, without considering what is occuring in the rest of the region, and without considering why Greece's attitudes are as they are today; instead, merely putting them down to "colonialism" and "Nazism". Allow me to enlighten you; what was the purpose of Bulgaria during the Balkan Wars? What was the purpose of the Ottoman Empire? What is the purpose of FYROM when they spread propaganda incessantly and name their Airport after Alexander the Great? What is the purpose of the modern day Turkish state, when they expand their territorial waters to the limit allowed under International law, but threaten Greece with War if they do the same in the Aegean? What is there purpose when they constantly violate Greek airspace, hence CAUSING dog-fights? What is the purpose of Turkey when it suddenly decides to claim Imia and several other islets in the Aegean? What is the purpose of Turkey when, allowed to intervene in Cyprus to preserve the constitution, instead, creates a new Turkish state, colonizes the area with over 100,000 settlers and keeps 40,000 Turkish troops in the area for 33 years and counting?

You must consider the reasons for Greece behaving in the way it does, i.e. not calling the VARIOUS minorities in Thrace, Turkish. When doing this, you must also consider the way in which Greek minorities in the region have been treated. Yet you seem to care very little about this. How have Greeks been treated in Turkey? Far worse than the Turks in Greece. Heard of the Istanbul Pogrom? Greece did not retaliate to this, hence the Turkish minority has exapnded. Perhaps you should mention this, or does that not suite your biased defamation of your country? Greeks have also in the past had a bad time in Albania, have they not?

I do not actually believe it matters too much whether we call them Turkish or Muslim in any event. What matters is, are they treated as equal Greek citizens in everyday life; and I believe the answer to that is Yes. In the past (Balkan Wars), all the nations had populations in various areas, and ALL of them tried to expand their borders, not just Greece. Look at the ethnic cleansing Turkey carried out in Smyrna, ending thousands of years of Greeks living in Anatolia. The minorities of Greece are treated well in comparison to the region and when considering its history; they have flourished and expanded in number. Can Turkey say this? I am not saying that improvements cannot be made, but the way you are criticising Greece is ludicrous and exaggerated to say the very least (i.e. Nazi state) Sorry, I can't help but laugh at that one.

So stop blindly maligning Greece, and consider the whole region, and why Greece behaves like it does. Greece is still a new nation, and it feels threatened by Turkey (a much larger nation on its border, that is extremely nationalistic) and FYROM, which repeatedly has displayed expansionist attitudes towards Greece. It seems to me that the only thing that would make you happy is for Greece to allow itself to be broken-up by its neighbors, and your completely naive, short-sighted and vendetta-like attitude towards Greece, compels me to believe you have an agenda and therefore lose all credit.

P.S. Before you start pleading for multi-culturalism in Greece, perhaps you may want to just think about it a little longer. It is not all it is made out to be: ask the UK.

Hi Simon.
Just one comment on your well written post. Greece infact recognises that there is a Turkish minority in Thrace, as well as a Pomak and a Roma one. All three combined are referred to as the muslim minority of Thrace, since they not only live together in the region, they also share the same religion. What Turkey promotes and demands is the WHOLE muslim minority to be recognised as Turkish, which is obviously unacceptable not only by Greece, but also by every human rights organisation and, of course, the EU, which perfectly understands this and has raised no issues regarding the characterisation of the minority as "muslim"

Greece recognizes shit Alexis.Shut up with your propaganda.


Greece will never recognize an ethic minority.The name of the minority is MUSLIM not Turskish or Pomak or whatever bullshit your dad says.

I have bashed you repeatdly over the issue.

FIND ME WHERE IT SAYS OFFICIALLY THE MINORITY IS TURKISH.THEN WE CAN TALK.

[alexISS]

Greece recognizes shit Alexis.Shut up with your propaganda.


Greece will never recognize an ethic minority.The name of the minority is MUSLIM not Turskish or Pomak or whatever bullshit your dad says.

I have bashed you repeatdly over the issue.

FIND ME WHERE IT SAYS OFFICIALLY THE MINORITY IS TURKISH.THEN WE CAN TALK.

Greece is the only country in the region where minorities are respected you poor bastard, if you had ever met a single muslim Greek in your life you'd know that. Quit stuffing your messed up brain with junk from FYROMian and Turkish propaganda sites and go meet the minority members and SEE what's the real deal. Greece is doing just fine, succesfully defending itself against the Turkish militaristic regime that daily sends its fighters for "training" over Samos or Chios. The Turkish generals that run that land can huff and puff and curse all they want, they'll never have it their way and neither will you. As for FYROM, they most certainly are no threat to Greece, but that doesn't mean Greece is going to allow those lost Bulgarians to claim Greek history and land as their own. Didn't you know that in the first draft of this country's constitution it was mentioned that there are "occupied macedonian lands" in Greece that needed to be freed? What about the withdrawn bank note with an image of the white tower in Thessaloniki? Would you say Thessaloniki is a "FYROMian" city? Maybe the epistles of Paul to the Thessaloniceans were originally written in Slavic and were translated by the Greek propagandists later...

It's hard for a developed, modern country like Greece to have such backward neighbours you know, yet we manage to maintain a good quality of life. Yes, a country in the same region with Albania, FYROM and Turkey is capable of hosting Olympic Games, joining the EuroZone and excelling in Science, Arts and Sports (by the way, how pissed were you when Greece won the Euro cup? ).
Who knows, maybe those third world countries will eventually wake up, like Bulgaria did, and join the rest of the world in the 21st century. Then maybe their citizens won't have to live with $200 per month.

[Simon]

Does not withstand? So when one nation threatens war against another, you do not consider Greece to be threatened?

Greece one of the hardcore enemies of the Ottoman Empire? Absolutely, the atrocities the Ottomans carried out against Greeks are numerous. Greeks had to fight extensively for freedom from the Ottoman Empire, so what exactly do you expect?

Greeks are no better than Turks, therefore, why does the world recognise Greece as a full democracy? Why is Turkey not considered a full democracy by many? Why has the Greek minority in Turkey almost disappeared, while the Turkish minority has flourished, if Greece is just as bad? Did Greece respond in kind to the Istanbul Pogrom? How then can they be as bad?

The Greeks were the first to oppose the Ottomons? I have heard it all now. I do not even need to respond to this surely. Are you sure you are Greek? Normally, I would not ask this simply because a person criticises their country, but you are ridiculous. If you are Greek, you should probably do yourself and Greece a favour and renounce your citizenship. You are an absolute joke. Further, Greece being a religious country is a good thing in many ways, it is probably why Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe. "Fanatic Christians"? Rubbish. Please Explain. Consider how many fanatic Muslims and nationalists there are in Turkey.


[quote]Greece always gave a hard time to Turkey. [/quote]


Are you serious? You are showing your true colours here.


[quote]Name ONE consession that Greece has done towards Turkey the past 200 years.Just one!! [/quote]


AND EVEN MORE SO HERE!!!!! How about supporting Turkey's EU bid? Now, you answer, what concession has Turkey made to Cyprus or Greece?

[quote]The Turks have a genuine understanding that it is impossible for them to oppose a fanatic christian nation of 11million people.They can not make Greece shut up bsc of Greece's ''christianity'' which leads to Greece's International support most of the times. [/quote]


Are you Turkish? You seem to have a "great" understanding of how all of Greece's rivals feel, but not an even basic understanding of how Greece feels itself. I shall tell you what, to appease Turkey, let us demand Greece renounces Christianity, recognise Macedonia belongs to FYROM, gives Thrace to Turkey, Epirus to Albania, renounces the name "Greece, Greek and Hellenic" and give the rest to the Army of Islam! That way, SN will be satisfied! If you are Greek, I am Japanese.


[quote]Never in human history has another nation managed to succesfully shut up a nation as big as the Greek nation is,regardless of Turkey's population.
If Turkey could shut up Greece,she would have done so 200 years ago. [/quote]

Does that even make sense??? Even if you are Greek by passport, you are certainly not Greek in heart and mind. I say this because it is patently obvious that you put every other nation's interests and views, above your own.



[quote]Regarding Macedonia your claims also do not withstand.It is ridiculous to believe that Greece feels threatened from Macedonia.It is laughable. [/quote]


Well, that kind of makes me laugh. Because, if everybody in Greek Macedonia believed the FYROM propaganda in the same way you do, FYROM would claim the region within hours. Therefore, it is not so laughable, is it? You have proved that.


The rest of your post I will reply to later. I am too busy at the moment.

[SN]

Simon Greeks were the first nation to fight for their independence in the Ottoman Empire.

Renouncing or not my citizenship is rather personal.You shouldnt have a saying i believe.

Greece supported Turkey's bid in the EU blakcmailing her about Cyprus....Get real...

Off course i am no longer Greek at heart Simon.Greece made it easy for me.Nothing personal though.
Once Greece starts respecting its own citizens then maybe i ll start believing in Greece again.
For the time being i keep on fighting for the true European future of my county.Unlike you who is perfectly happy with a biggot Greece.No man.I ll pass.
If i have to ,i ll bring Greece to the EU courts.I want be alone you know.The Greeks....the true progressive ones are fed up with Greece's immaturity.Once you live outside Greece,Cyprus or your fantastic world maybe you ll understand me.

Btw-i am bored prooving i am Greek.Only bsc some Greeks are so immature as to accept,what democracy is all about.

[SN]

Greece recognizes shit Alexis.Shut up with your propaganda.


Greece will never recognize an ethic minority.The name of the minority is MUSLIM not Turskish or Pomak or whatever bullshit your dad says.

I have bashed you repeatdly over the issue.

FIND ME WHERE IT SAYS OFFICIALLY THE MINORITY IS TURKISH.THEN WE CAN TALK.

Greece is the only country in the region where minorities are respected you poor bastard, if you had ever met a single muslim Greek in your life you'd know that. Quit stuffing your messed up brain with junk from FYROMian and Turkish propaganda sites and go meet the minority members and SEE what's the real deal. Greece is doing just fine, succesfully defending itself against the Turkish militaristic regime that daily sends its fighters for "training" over Samos or Chios. The Turkish generals that run that land can huff and puff and curse all they want, they'll never have it their way and neither will you. As for FYROM, they most certainly are no threat to Greece, but that doesn't mean Greece is going to allow those lost Bulgarians to claim Greek history and land as their own. Didn't you know that in the first draft of this country's constitution it was mentioned that there are "occupied macedonian lands" in Greece that needed to be freed? What about the withdrawn bank note with an image of the white tower in Thessaloniki? Would you say Thessaloniki is a "FYROMian" city? Maybe the epistles of Paul to the Thessaloniceans were originally written in Slavic and were translated by the Greek propagandists later...

It's hard for a developed, modern country like Greece to have such backward neighbours you know, yet we manage to maintain a good quality of life. Yes, a country in the same region with Albania, FYROM and Turkey is capable of hosting Olympic Games, joining the EuroZone and excelling in Science, Arts and Sports (by the way, how pissed were you when Greece won the Euro cup? ).
Who knows, maybe those third world countries will eventually wake up, like Bulgaria did, and join the rest of the world in the 21st century. Then maybe their citizens won't have to live with $200 per month.

Hahaha.How typical village Greek mentality....

My best area is to make fun at Greeks who believe that by having a 700Euro salary are better off....

Oh get real Alexis.Cyprus is ten times better.The whole of the EU for that matter.Dont be a typical Greek villager(Xoriatis).Spare me the melodrama.

Bulgaria is far more advanced than Greece in many areas,culture mainly.But your little propaganda says that Greece is better.How pathetic...Bulgaria has well informed citizens.Not like Greece.You know the Bulgarians dont believe they are superior to anyone...

Please entertain me Alexis.How is your 700Euro salary life is any better in Athens???A saturday in bouzoukia?Is that all?
Please entertain me as to how a modern Greek living specially in Athens has a better life quality?Let me guess you drive your car to work,which takes at least 2 hours,spends all his money on petrol for the car,and then come back from work go for a coffee,pay at least 4 euro for a cup of coffe and then what???Thinks he has a better life quality than the Bulgarians.So pathetic village Greek mentality...Hahahaha.

I d know a thing or two about Bulgaria since i lived there for a few years.They are better off than a complexized Athenian...Trust me....

[SN]

By the way Alexis the white tower banknote never went into circulation in Macedonia.

That shows your ignorance.

Regarding the 2004 cup....well dont be so stereotypical complexized Greek.I cheered my heart out!
You see your complex issue blind you from seeing what i truly wanna say.Enjoy your Greek propagandized sleep that you are better to the rest of the Balkans,while Greece is the most Balkanic country of them all!!!!!

[SN]

[quote="alexISS"] Would you say Thessaloniki is a "FYROMian" city? Maybe the epistles of Paul to the Thessaloniceans were originally written in Slavic and were translated by the Greek propagandists later...

Iquote]


Alexis dont be ridiculed yet again.What does Greece has to do with Macedonia or Ancient Hellenism?

I am what the propagandized Greeks refer to as a ''Greek" "Macedonian".I was brought up in Serres in Macedonia.Yet i believe my history knowledge is far better than yours.

It is a well known fact that the Ancient Macedonians are considered a rather backward ancient Greek tribe.It is what western academia still believes.But what do they have to do with modern Greece???

Pls tell me what does Greece has to do with ancient Greece?What does this artificial nation of ours has to do with Macedonia???I mean spare me...

All the Balkan nations are bastardized.Among which the Macedonian nation as well.
Greece should stop dictating to neighbours how they should be called.The modern macedonians have lived in Macedonia for a long long time.They have every right to be called Macedonians.

They have world wide recognition as Macedonia.2/3 of the UN countries recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.Greece has lost the name issue.And that is how it should be.Greece has no right to claim anything Macedonian or ancient Greek.
Ancient Greece belongs to all of the citizens of the world.It has nothing to do with the artificial country called Greece.