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How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:47 am

The game being played by the likes of Piratis and Kifeas and now backed up by some that think they can smell blood is also very sickening.

You quote from sources that contradict each other without shame or/and understanding to gain points, in your own minds that is.


You cannot claim to be running under the Zurick agreement and then go on to proclaim the "RoC" legal. It is as simple as that. You claim that it is because the Eu has said so and then you forget about the OXI on the Annan Plan that the EU also put forward and was rejected only by yourselves. It seems that in your minds the EU can only make a mistake when it comes to making decisions against you. ~They made a massive mistake in allowing you to take over the island and there are many in the organisation that are saying just that. We can only hope that now they have realised they will go ahead and make good their promise to lift the embargoes but guess who is going against international decisions still. :roll: :roll:


Under the ausbices of the Zurick agreement you are not allowed to exist without us and that is that. So the "RoC" is illegal what ever way you want to look at it and if we forget the Zurick agreement and say you have a right to set up yopur own republic then that has to apply to us as well. You do all you can fot a long time to limit the existance of the TC people in order to push us furt5her into this Greek version of "Minority" status that includes murdering people and forcing them out of their own country, and then you play with numbers. Give us a break down of how many of the 700,000 people in the "RoC" are actually GCs in the sense you are applying to us. The Greeks that stayed even after their invasion of the island during the 60s and then on a far greater scale before 74 for istance. The Zurick agreement has to be implemented to the fullest in which case every decision you made from 63 has been an illegal one or you calim your republic in the same manner we claim ours. You cannot claim one part from one reality and one from another. You may have the upper hand in EU decisions but I hope you are going to take further decisions made by them in the same way even if you do not get it all your own way. We, on the other hand, as Turkish Cypriots ahve the upper hand on the moral side of this issue because we have not been allowed to function since 63 in the way that tthe constitution allowed us to. Take your pick. Either disolve the "RoC" and use the Zurick agreement or discard the agreement and realsie your republic after which you do not have a say in the TRNC/KKTC. You tried to wipe us out of our country and expect no redress to that. I don't think so!!!!!


Realities to you are always going to be a problem Piratis because it is a slap in the face of your distortions. The only propaganda is your posts in which you do not address the facts that I have stated. As usual you try to take attention away from what really went on and that if sympathy were the only factor in all of this then we would win hands down.
Last edited by zan on Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:48 am

You cannot even see or admit to the realisties of the situation so why the hell we should trust you on anything I really don't know. Where are all the GCs that are to speak up against this sort of biased and distorted statement.


Zan, all you say is biased distorted statements by adopting the most extreme of Turkish propaganda. So why should any GC help you in your propaganda? To gain what? Your sympathy? Or maybe you will be moved and you will admit the many crimes and illegalities of your side as a return? We both know that will never happen, right?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:54 am

zan wrote:The game being played by the likes of Piratis and Kifeas and now backed up by some that think they can smell blood is also very sickening.

You quote from sources that contradict each other without shame or/and understanding to gain points, in your own minds that is.


You cannot claim to be running under the Zurick agreement and then go on to proclaim the "RoC" legal. It is as simple as that. You claim that it is because the Eu has said so and then you forget about the OXI on the Annan Plan that the EU also put forward and was rejected only by yourselves. It seems that in your minds the EU can only make a mistake when it comes to making decisions against you. ~They made a massive mistake in allowing you to take over the island and there are many in the organisation that are saying just that. We can only hope that now they have realised they will go ahead and make good their promise to lift the embargoes but guess who is going against international decisions still. :roll: :roll:


Under the ausbices of the Zurick agreement you are not allowed to exist without us and that is that. So the "RoC" is illegal what ever way you want to look at it and if we forget the Zurick agreement and say you have a right to set up yopur own republic then that has to apply to us as well. You do all you can fot a long time to limit the existance of the TC people in order to push us furt5her into this Greek version of "Minority" status that includes murdering people and forcing them out of their own country, and then you play with numbers. Give us a break down of how many of the 700,000 people in the "RoC" are actually GCs in the sense you are applying to us. The Greeks that stayed even after their invasion of the island during the 60s and then on a far greater scale before 74 for istance. The Zurick agreement has to be implemented to the fullest in which case every decision you made from 63 has been an illegal one or you calim your republic in the same manner we claim ours. You cannot claim one part from one reality and one from another. You may have the upper hand in EU decisions but I hope you are going to take further decisions made by them in the same way even if you do not get it all your own way. We, on the other hand, as Turkish Cypriots ahve the upper hand on the moral side of this issue because we have not been allowed to function since 63 in the way that tthe constitution allowed us to. Take your pick. Either disolve the "RoC" and use the Zurick agreement or discard the agreement and realsie your republic after which you do not have a say in the TRNC/KKTC. You tried to wipe us out of our country and expect no redress to that. I don't think so!!!!!


RoC is illegal? Says who? The turks? :lol:

Here is what is illegal, just in case you missed it:

RESOLUTION 541 (1983)

Adopted by the Security Council
on 18 November 1983


The Security Council,

Having heard the statement of the Foreign Minister of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus,

Concerned at the declaration by the Turkish Cypriot authorities issued on 15 November 1983 which purports to create in independent state in northern Cyprus,

Considering that this declaration is incompatible with the 1960 Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee,

Considering therefore that the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" is invalid, and will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus,

Reaffirming its resolutions 365(1974) and 367(1975),

Aware of the need of a solution to the Cyprus problem, based on the mission of good offices undertaken by the Secretary-General,

Affirming its continued support for the United Nations Peace- keeping Force in Cyprus,

Taking note of the Secretary-Generals statement of 17 November 1983,

1. Deplores the declaration of the Turkish Cypriot authorities of the purported secession of part of the Republic of Cyprus;

2. Considers the declaration refereed to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal;

3. Calls for the urgent and effective implementation of its resolutions 365(1974) and 367(1975);

4. Requests the Secretary-General to peruse his mission of good offices in order to achieve the earliest possible progress towards a just and lasting settlement in Cyprus;

5. Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the Secretary- General in his mission of good offices;

6. Calls upon all states to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus;

7. Calls upon all states not to recognise any Cypriot state other than the Republic of Cyprus;

8. Calls upon all states and the two communities in Cyprus to refrain from any action which might exacerbate the situation;

9. Requests the Secretary-General to keep the Security Council fully informed.

http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr541.htm


If you want to come back to RoC, you can end the occupation and come any day. As long as you choose illegality instead, then the only illegals are you, not the RoC.
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Postby zan » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:56 am

zan wrote:The game being played by the likes of Piratis and Kifeas and now backed up by some that think they can smell blood is also very sickening.

You quote from sources that contradict each other without shame or/and understanding to gain points, in your own minds that is.


You cannot claim to be running under the Zurick agreement and then go on to proclaim the "RoC" legal. It is as simple as that. You claim that it is because the Eu has said so and then you forget about the OXI on the Annan Plan that the EU also put forward and was rejected only by yourselves. It seems that in your minds the EU can only make a mistake when it comes to making decisions against you. ~They made a massive mistake in allowing you to take over the island and there are many in the organisation that are saying just that. We can only hope that now they have realised they will go ahead and make good their promise to lift the embargoes but guess who is going against international decisions still. :roll: :roll:


Under the ausbices of the Zurick agreement you are not allowed to exist without us and that is that. So the "RoC" is illegal what ever way you want to look at it and if we forget the Zurick agreement and say you have a right to set up yopur own republic then that has to apply to us as well. You do all you can fot a long time to limit the existance of the TC people in order to push us furt5her into this Greek version of "Minority" status that includes murdering people and forcing them out of their own country, and then you play with numbers. Give us a break down of how many of the 700,000 people in the "RoC" are actually GCs in the sense you are applying to us. The Greeks that stayed even after their invasion of the island during the 60s and then on a far greater scale before 74 for istance. The Zurick agreement has to be implemented to the fullest in which case every decision you made from 63 has been an illegal one or you calim your republic in the same manner we claim ours. You cannot claim one part from one reality and one from another. You may have the upper hand in EU decisions but I hope you are going to take further decisions made by them in the same way even if you do not get it all your own way. We, on the other hand, as Turkish Cypriots ahve the upper hand on the moral side of this issue because we have not been allowed to function since 63 in the way that tthe constitution allowed us to. Take your pick. Either disolve the "RoC" and use the Zurick agreement or discard the agreement and realsie your republic after which you do not have a say in the TRNC/KKTC. You tried to wipe us out of our country and expect no redress to that. I don't think so!!!!!



Realities to you are always going to be a problem Piratis because it is a slap in the face of your distortions. The only propaganda is your posts in which you do not address the facts that I have stated. As usual you try to take attention away from what really went on and that if sympathy were the only factor in all of this then we would win hands down.
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Postby zan » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:59 am

Piratis wrote:
zan wrote:The game being played by the likes of Piratis and Kifeas and now backed up by some that think they can smell blood is also very sickening.

You quote from sources that contradict each other without shame or/and understanding to gain points, in your own minds that is.


You cannot claim to be running under the Zurick agreement and then go on to proclaim the "RoC" legal. It is as simple as that. You claim that it is because the Eu has said so and then you forget about the OXI on the Annan Plan that the EU also put forward and was rejected only by yourselves. It seems that in your minds the EU can only make a mistake when it comes to making decisions against you. ~They made a massive mistake in allowing you to take over the island and there are many in the organisation that are saying just that. We can only hope that now they have realised they will go ahead and make good their promise to lift the embargoes but guess who is going against international decisions still. :roll: :roll:


Under the ausbices of the Zurick agreement you are not allowed to exist without us and that is that. So the "RoC" is illegal what ever way you want to look at it and if we forget the Zurick agreement and say you have a right to set up yopur own republic then that has to apply to us as well. You do all you can fot a long time to limit the existance of the TC people in order to push us furt5her into this Greek version of "Minority" status that includes murdering people and forcing them out of their own country, and then you play with numbers. Give us a break down of how many of the 700,000 people in the "RoC" are actually GCs in the sense you are applying to us. The Greeks that stayed even after their invasion of the island during the 60s and then on a far greater scale before 74 for istance. The Zurick agreement has to be implemented to the fullest in which case every decision you made from 63 has been an illegal one or you calim your republic in the same manner we claim ours. You cannot claim one part from one reality and one from another. You may have the upper hand in EU decisions but I hope you are going to take further decisions made by them in the same way even if you do not get it all your own way. We, on the other hand, as Turkish Cypriots ahve the upper hand on the moral side of this issue because we have not been allowed to function since 63 in the way that tthe constitution allowed us to. Take your pick. Either disolve the "RoC" and use the Zurick agreement or discard the agreement and realsie your republic after which you do not have a say in the TRNC/KKTC. You tried to wipe us out of our country and expect no redress to that. I don't think so!!!!!


RoC is illegal? Says who? The turks? :lol:

Here is what is illegal, just in case you missed it:

RESOLUTION 541 (1983)

Adopted by the Security Council
on 18 November 1983


The Security Council,

Having heard the statement of the Foreign Minister of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus,

Concerned at the declaration by the Turkish Cypriot authorities issued on 15 November 1983 which purports to create in independent state in northern Cyprus,

Considering that this declaration is incompatible with the 1960 Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee,

Considering therefore that the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" is invalid, and will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus,

Reaffirming its resolutions 365(1974) and 367(1975),

Aware of the need of a solution to the Cyprus problem, based on the mission of good offices undertaken by the Secretary-General,

Affirming its continued support for the United Nations Peace- keeping Force in Cyprus,

Taking note of the Secretary-Generals statement of 17 November 1983,

1. Deplores the declaration of the Turkish Cypriot authorities of the purported secession of part of the Republic of Cyprus;

2. Considers the declaration refereed to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal;

3. Calls for the urgent and effective implementation of its resolutions 365(1974) and 367(1975);

4. Requests the Secretary-General to peruse his mission of good offices in order to achieve the earliest possible progress towards a just and lasting settlement in Cyprus;

5. Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the Secretary- General in his mission of good offices;

6. Calls upon all states to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus;

7. Calls upon all states not to recognise any Cypriot state other than the Republic of Cyprus;

8. Calls upon all states and the two communities in Cyprus to refrain from any action which might exacerbate the situation;

9. Requests the Secretary-General to keep the Security Council fully informed.

http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr541.htm


If you want to come back to RoC, you can end the occupation and come any day. As long as you choose illegality instead, then the only illegals are you, not the RoC.


Fantastic! Thanks for that Piratis. Then you take option two in which the Zurick agreement no longer applies and that we can calim our republic and the EU have got it wrong twice. You cannot have any resolutions that are worth nothing under the Zurick agreement without us. It is quite that simple so you can calim what the hell you like it does not make the facts go away. Are you sure of your choice....
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:11 am

OK, so you claim that EU and the UN got it wrong, and Turkey got it right? So what changed? The whole world recognizes Republic of Cyprus, and Turkey the "trnc". If you don't mind that you are the only ones who "got it right" then there is no problem for you I guess.
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Postby alexISS » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:14 am

The world is DEFINATELY slowly changing its view on the Cyprus problem, more and more foreign countries start to view the Turkish Cypriots as victims, the sooner the RoC government realizes this the better. Talks must restart as soon as possible and, I'm sorry to say that, mr Papadopoulos does not seem too eager to do so. Discussing what is an illegality and what not is only a waste of time, Piratis. Of course I agree with you on most of your views regarding the past of Cyprus and the Turkish imperialistic policies, however I disagree with your proposed next steps. An 18-82 partition is worse for the RoC than the current status quo in my opinion, Cyprus is TOO SMALL to be split in two. And even if it did, what will happen to the two states in the future? If Turkey is denied EU membership there is a good chance she will annex the north after conducting a "referendum" or something. What will happen to the Greek Cypriot State then? Will it cope with bordering Turkey or will it be unified with Greece?
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Postby zan » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:22 am

Piratis wrote:OK, so you claim that EU and the UN got it wrong, and Turkey got it right? So what changed? The whole world recognizes Republic of Cyprus, and Turkey the "trnc". If you don't mind that you are the only ones who "got it right" then there is no problem for you I guess.


There is no problem in this case because we are slowly showing the EU and the UN that it got it wrong and there is no shame in that if it is put right. Just because we made a lousy job of it in the past does not mean that we cannot put together a better plan in the future. Wrongs can be put right without the need for war. Only the Makarios regime thought that and lokk where we are today. Yu have got the TC people to contend with now that they are beginning to wake up to the fact that they have indeed been wronged and their rights are being made plain to them on a daily basis. The whole world, as you put it, has been fed a crock of shit from you for too long. They no longer appreciate the taste or the people that have been feeding to them. Wake up and see what is going on or the choices will be taken out of your hands and I hope you will then take the decision of the "whole world" and live with it. They do not just "see" us as the victime but are realsing that that is actually the case.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:34 am

You killed 6000 GCs and ethnically cleansing 200.000 and stole our land, and those people are not the victims but you are? :roll:

The whole world knows about the aggression of Turks. They do not wait from us to tell them about it. Do you think it is a coincidence the EU people do not want Turks in EU? You telling me that the "whole world" sees you as the victims just because your Anglo-American buddies say so?

the fact is we have been victimized by the Turks since the day the Turks set their foot on our island. thats the TRUTH zan, and your propaganda will not convince anybody except those that want to be convinced because they are Turkey's allies.
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Postby Murataga » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:18 pm

After reading some of the comments written in lieu of the exchange of the posts with myself and Piratis it seems necessary that a few points have to be clarified. The Resolution and the argument that I brought on for discussion is not about the illegality of the RoC. The RoC is illegal not because of the Resolution I pointed to, but for many other reasons, of which one has been fabulously pointed out by Zan in his post recently, and is the subject of another discussion. That is a debate completely different from the one I brought about which unfortunately Piratis tried to pull the conversation towards. My point is something else and perhaps it is necessary that I elaborate on it a bit…

My point is that the GCs wil nevr accept a solution to the Cyprus Problem withing the lagal framework of the U.N. since the U.N. foresees a solution that they become a community in the RoC after a settlement. The U.N. although recognizing the current illegitimate form of the RoC, clearly points that there is a problem with Cyprus involving the RoC. Furthermore, it has been, annually, declaring that the Cyprus Problem should be settled, acknowledging that there is a problem, through a solution where the RoC becomes a State comprised of TWO communities of GCs and the TCs where each of the two hold equal political status in separate zones. This Resolution is:

U.N. Resolution 750 (April 1992) (which has been reaffirmed annually since then)-
"Reaffirms the position set out in resolutions 649 (1990) of March 12 1990 and 716 (1991) October 11 1991 that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as defined in Paragraph 11 of Secretary-General’s report in a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession"


The standing fact is that there is a problem in Cyprus and the world points to the solution of this problem as RoC becoming a federated state with TWO communities in separate zones with equal political status. Now here is the core of the matter: the U.N. (along with the rest of the world) has trapped itself and locked any foreseeable solution within this framework they have given something to ONE of the communities that doesn`t belong to them in the first place and now they want it back and call this the solution of the Cyprus Problem. Where the U.N. has trapped itself is that it gave ONE of the communities, the GC community, the right to become the RoC thus granting them the status of being a nation within the RoC and synthetically elevating their status from being ONE of the TWO communities as she is foreseen in a solution of the problem. The GC community has believed, acted and educated its youth that they are a nation of the RoC and they have been treated as a nation of the RoC. Now the U.N. is pointing to a solution of the Cyprus Problem where the community recognized/treated as the RoC nation, reduce her status to a community of the RoC. Here in lies the greatest dilemma of paramount importance; and again, I am not discussing the events and developments that lead to this; just stating the situation. The U.N. first gives them the right to be the owner of the RoC, makes them a nation of the RoC, treats them as the nation of the RoC, and than points out that there is a problem in the RoC and that it is to be solved by this nation becoming a community. Even more paradoxically, although acknowledging that in the solution pointed to the Cyprus Problem the GCs are to be reduced from the nation of the RoC to a community in the RoC, the U.N. puts a prerequisite that it should be asked if the GCs would accept giving up being the nation of the RoC and becoming a community of the RoC. Guess what the GCs answered to no one’s surprise? A great big OXI! Hence, Papadopoulos`s famous and frequently quoted words regarding the answer:

“I have received a state (nation), I will not deliver a community”.

Call it the Annan Plan, Zimbabwe Plan, the Makarios Plan or whatever you like… Although the U.N.`s solution to settling the Cyprus Problem is by converting the current, illegitimate as far as universal principles are concerned but legal according to the EU and the UN, RoC in to a federated state with TWO politically equivalent communities in their separate zones, this solution will never ever be accepted by the GCs, ever. Because it is asking ONE of those (to become in the settlement) communities whether she will give up her extremely privileged status as a nation and become a community in the RoC. Who would say “Ne!” especially when they hold the tools with them to refuse this: an RoC already recognized by the world where they are the nation that gets to decide solely on their own on how that RoC is going to be navigated. Why become a community when you are the nation in the RoC? Why share policy/decision making of the RoC with another? Why give up living under a government of GCs to a one shared with another? And especially if that “another” is the long-time perceived “Satan” for which the RoC “nation” still carries with herself a heavy bag load of resentment?

That is why I kept asking the simple question that requires the simple answer of yes or no.

Please explicitly state whether or not you accept that in the solution of the Cyprus Problem according to the U.N. principles in an RoC: GCs are nothing more than ONE of the TWO communities that have politically equal status to their TC partners in their seperate zone in a federated state called RoC.


After writing:

U.N. Resolution 750 (April 1992) (which has been reaffirmed annually since then)-
"Reaffirms the position set out in resolutions 649 (1990) of March 12 1990 and 716 (1991) October 11 1991 that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as defined in Paragraph 11 of Secretary-General’s report in a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession"


The obvious answer is of course "OXI" for the GC side. Because they see themselves as the nation of the RoC, they have educated and made themselves believe they are the nation of RoC, and they have been treated as the nation of the RoC. However, an "OXI" also means they do not accept the solution of the U.N.`s legal framework and refusing U.N. contradicts their basis of supporting other Resolutions they have managed to pass as the RoC nation to strangulate the other community. So guess what the answer was: a great big NOTHING with complimentary cussing and swearing on the side and perversion as appetizer. Enjoy the show 8)
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