Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

Your political status is zero. What the UN and the world recognizes is Republic of Cyprus but instead of being part of RoC you choose illegality.

Wrong again Our political status is equal to your`s and you are nothing more than a community on this island that passes itself as the RoC through illegality and crime. You have to deal with the fact that you are ONE of the TWO politcally equal communities, better sooner than later.

Murataga, could you please define the political equality as quoted in the ONE resolution you've picked to listen to?

Is the definition as given by the secretary general. Would you like to post it or shall i dig it up?

Gladly, as I was the one puttuing the Resolution about BBF with politically equivalent ststus up here in the first place fully aware of the definition of political status and the one supporting it from the begining. It reads exactly the following and it is exactly what I support:

While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal Government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities; in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government; in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

This is what I stand by, word for word. Now you tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

ooops!

[DT.]

Your political status is zero. What the UN and the world recognizes is Republic of Cyprus but instead of being part of RoC you choose illegality.

Wrong again Our political status is equal to your`s and you are nothing more than a community on this island that passes itself as the RoC through illegality and crime. You have to deal with the fact that you are ONE of the TWO politcally equal communities, better sooner than later.

Murataga, could you please define the political equality as quoted in the ONE resolution you've picked to listen to?

Is the definition as given by the secretary general. Would you like to post it or shall i dig it up?

Gladly, as I was the one puttuing the Resolution about BBF with politically equivalent ststus up here in the first place fully aware of the definition of political status and the one supporting it from the begining. It reads exactly the following and it is exactly what I support:

While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal Government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities; in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government; in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

This is what I stand by, word for word. Now you tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

ooops!

Effective numerical participation in govt is not a 50-50 thing as Murataga states. I completely agree that a bi-zonal federation which will have both states participating. What needs to be clarified is..are these 2 states racist or not?

i.e will a GC family have to move out of the state if the woman is pregnant and the state has already met its quota of GC's allowed to reside there?

[bigOz]

Your political status is zero. What the UN and the world recognizes is Republic of Cyprus but instead of being part of RoC you choose illegality.

Wrong again Our political status is equal to your`s and you are nothing more than a community on this island that passes itself as the RoC through illegality and crime. You have to deal with the fact that you are ONE of the TWO politcally equal communities, better sooner than later.

Murataga, could you please define the political equality as quoted in the ONE resolution you've picked to listen to?

Is the definition as given by the secretary general. Would you like to post it or shall i dig it up?

Gladly, as I was the one puttuing the Resolution about BBF with politically equivalent ststus up here in the first place fully aware of the definition of political status and the one supporting it from the begining. It reads exactly the following and it is exactly what I support:

While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal Government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities; in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government; in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

This is what I stand by, word for word. Now you tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

ooops!

Effective numerical participation in govt is not a 50-50 thing as Murataga states. I completely agree that a bi-zonal federation which will have both states participating. What needs to be clarified is..are these 2 states racist or not?

i.e will a GC family have to move out of the state if the woman is pregnant and the state has already met its quota of GC's allowed to reside there?

Assuming TCs are not primitive wild animals and are civilised just as much as their GC counterparts (believe it or not ) one would expect no such quotas on people giving births because of their ethnicity!

Furthermore, what is persistently confused in these threads by many is the difference between "economic" and "political" equality. If you are talking about the economic or financial one - of course it will not be 50 - 50! It will be based upon the population and the area covered by the prospective participants in the federation. If you are talking about political equality, what is the harm in two states having a 50 - 50 say in their foreign and international policies? Since those policies will be governed by Brussels and EU anyway!

Just like Murataga pointed out to political equality within EU, irrespective of the size of the nations, it would be against the basic principles of EU to say one federal state should have less of a say because of its size. Let us not forget that the ultimate aim of EU is to have a Federal EU in future where all will be federal states. That is why a joint currency, joint army, joint police force and now a single "prime minister" is being proposed!

[Murataga]

Your political status is zero. What the UN and the world recognizes is Republic of Cyprus but instead of being part of RoC you choose illegality.

Wrong again Our political status is equal to your`s and you are nothing more than a community on this island that passes itself as the RoC through illegality and crime. You have to deal with the fact that you are ONE of the TWO politcally equal communities, better sooner than later.

Murataga, could you please define the political equality as quoted in the ONE resolution you've picked to listen to?

Is the definition as given by the secretary general. Would you like to post it or shall i dig it up?

Gladly, as I was the one puttuing the Resolution about BBF with politically equivalent ststus up here in the first place fully aware of the definition of political status and the one supporting it from the begining. It reads exactly the following and it is exactly what I support:

While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal Government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities; in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government; in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

This is what I stand by, word for word. Now you tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

ooops!

Effective numerical participation in govt is not a 50-50 thing as Murataga states. I completely agree that a bi-zonal federation which will have both states participating. What needs to be clarified is..are these 2 states racist or not?

i.e will a GC family have to move out of the state if the woman is pregnant and the state has already met its quota of GC's allowed to reside there?

I never claim/claimed that numerical participation be 50-50, ever. But more importantly, that is not the defintion of having an equal political status as given above or as I have used. You will of course have more people in the government, just as Germany does compared to Greece in the EU parliament (of course in our case this applies to Government jobs aswell, i.e. more civil servants that are GC than TC). But these are given that:

(1)

in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities

(2)

in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government

and most importantly:

(3)

the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states;

So for example the federal government will not be allowed to "adopt any measures" in foreign/domestic policy that might put the interests/security of one community in jeapordy if ONE of the communities object despite their lesser numerical participation in the Government. This is what politically equal community means. Similarly, Greece has lesser numerical participation in the EU parliament but has to abide by all its decisions, however, at the same time the EU parliament has to make certain decisions with the concurrence of Greece no matter what their numerical participation is and in no case the EU parliament can adopt any measures that would jepordize the security/interests of Greece.

These are the principles. The rest is detail that neither you or I have the expertise to discuss. My pont is that this framework recognizes the TC community as ONE of the TWO communities and not as the minority in a host nation. Minorities are not politically equal communities where they are granted:

Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

Now you be sincere and tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

[boulio]

Any maps that can provide on idea of how a 82-18% split would look???

[DT.]

Your political status is zero. What the UN and the world recognizes is Republic of Cyprus but instead of being part of RoC you choose illegality.

Wrong again Our political status is equal to your`s and you are nothing more than a community on this island that passes itself as the RoC through illegality and crime. You have to deal with the fact that you are ONE of the TWO politcally equal communities, better sooner than later.

Murataga, could you please define the political equality as quoted in the ONE resolution you've picked to listen to?

Is the definition as given by the secretary general. Would you like to post it or shall i dig it up?

Gladly, as I was the one puttuing the Resolution about BBF with politically equivalent ststus up here in the first place fully aware of the definition of political status and the one supporting it from the begining. It reads exactly the following and it is exactly what I support:

While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal Government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities; in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government; in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

This is what I stand by, word for word. Now you tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

ooops!

Effective numerical participation in govt is not a 50-50 thing as Murataga states. I completely agree that a bi-zonal federation which will have both states participating. What needs to be clarified is..are these 2 states racist or not?

i.e will a GC family have to move out of the state if the woman is pregnant and the state has already met its quota of GC's allowed to reside there?

I never claim/claimed that numerical participation be 50-50, ever. But more importantly, that is not the defintion of having an equal political status as given above or as I have used. You will of course have more people in the government, just as Germany does compared to Greece in the EU parliament (of course in our case this applies to Government jobs aswell, i.e. more civil servants that are GC than TC). But these are given that:

(1)

in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities

(2)

in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government

and most importantly:

(3)

the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states;

So for example the federal government will not be allowed to "adopt any measures" in foreign/domestic policy that might put the interests/security of one community in jeapordy if ONE of the communities object despite their lesser numerical participation in the Government. This is what politically equal community means. Similarly, Greece has lesser numerical participation in the EU parliament but has to abide by all its decisions, however, at the same time the EU parliament has to make certain decisions with the concurrence of Greece no matter what their numerical participation is and in no case the EU parliament can adopt any measures that would jepordize the security/interests of Greece.

These are the principles. The rest is detail that neither you or I have the expertise to discuss. My pont is that this framework recognizes the TC community as ONE of the TWO communities and not as the minority in a host nation. Minorities are not politically equal communities where they are granted:

Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

Now you be sincere and tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

If you quit reffering to me and Piratis as you and your buddy i'll start responding back to you.

[Piratis]

turkish_cypriot, you denying the history of this island can not change it.

Have they taught you at your schools about the history of this island?

Cyprus is Hellenic from the time the term "Hellenic" first appeared.

Have you ever read anything about our language and dialect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadocypriot

Have you ever heard anything about Aphrodite one of the 12 Gods of Olympus who was from Cyprus?

After the Ottoman rule we also have a Turkish minority in Cyprus. So what? How does that change who we are?

What is not true is the fake Cyprus the Turks are trying to create in the part they illegally occupy. They ethnically cleansed the original inhabitants and replaced them with Turks, they rename our towns and villages, they destroy our churches, they produce a ton of lies and propaganda and they do everything they can to hide and destroy what the true Cyprus is.

So in the same way we accept who you are, you should also accept who we are and the history of this island, and stop trying to destroy it just because you don't like it.

Piratis you just don't get it....before the mainlanders came we were all CYPRIOTS and happy that way!

When they came and poisoned you THATS when we started hearing people shouting ''CYPRUS IS GREEK''.

Right now you are more Greek than you are Cypriot and its evident from everything you write and THAT is the problem.

Im not trying to destroy anything, everything that Cyprus stood for that could of been destroyed WAS by your motherland, and then by mine...if Cyprus was so important to ''Hellenism'' your motherland would of done a lot more to save you...WAKE UP!

turkish_cypriot, I am afraid you do not know the history of this island good enough.

Cyprus was captured by the Ottomans more than a century after most other parts of the Hellenic world. Athens was captured by the Ottomans in 1456, Cyprus in 1571.
During the Greek revolution of 1821 we tried to revolt as well:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Then when the British took over our hopes that we would soon be liberated were raised. But when we saw that the British were just another foreign ruler like all the rest we again reacted as early as 1920s and 30s with massive demonstrations.

So when you say "before the mainlanders came we were all CYPRIOTS and happy that way!" for which period are you referring?
No doubt we are all Cypriots but about the "happy" part, we were definitely not, since we were under the rule of foreign rulers who did not allow us to rule our own island.

The conflict between TCs and GCs didn't start when GCs demanded liberation and union with Greece. This was something demanded since the day the modern Greek state was created and several other parts of the Hellenic world were joining it.

The conflict between TCs and GCs started when the Turks and the British used the TC minority on the island and turned them against us, in order to stop Cypriots from achieving what was their right. Until then our enemies were just the foreign rulers. When you sided with those foreign rulers and you turned against us and our rights, thats when you became the enemy as well.

[Piratis]

Murataga, you are going in circles. The only legal thing that exists today is Republic of Cyprus and it is perfectly legal as it is and as such is recognized by the rest of the world and the UN. You can take your rights in RoC and you can call yourselves the non-minority super humans if you wish. The label you give is really irrelevant and I couldn't care less. I know that 18% is a minority, beyond that you can think whatever makes you happy.

Beyond that for anything else to become legal we have to approve it. We did not approve anything else though, did we? And we are not even obligated to accepted anything else. This is why we had every right to reject the Annan plan and this is why Republic of Cyprus as it is today is perfectly legal to the whole world and the UN.
At the same time your occupation and your "trnc" are illegal. So you are the one who is choosing crime and illegality and for that the consequence is that you get zero political power.

Now read and re-read what I wrote above please and don't repeat the same things that I have already answered to you in a perfectly clear way.

[Murataga]

Murataga, you are going in circles. The only legal thing that exists today is Republic of Cyprus and it is perfectly legal as it is and as such is recognized by the rest of the world and the UN. You can take your rights in RoC and you can call yourselves the non-minority super humans if you wish. The label you give is really irrelevant and I couldn't care less. I know that 18% is a minority, beyond that you can think whatever makes you happy.

Beyond that for anything else to become legal we have to approve it. We did not approve anything else though, did we? And we are not even obligated to accepted anything else. This is why we had every right to reject the Annan plan and this is why Republic of Cyprus as it is today is perfectly legal to the whole world and the UN.
At the same time your occupation and your "trnc" are illegal. So you are the one who is choosing crime and illegality and for that the consequence is that you get zero political power.

Now read and re-read what I wrote above please and don't repeat the same things that I have already answered to you in a perfectly clear way.

Apparently it is you that has to be doing the reading and re-reading part for you are repeating yourself like a broken record player. There are TWO communities in Cyprus and the RoC is supposed to be formed by these TWO communities within a legal framework that grants these two communities equal political status in seperate zones. You are supposed to be ONE of these communities, nothing more. This is acknowledged by the world, this acknowledged by the U.N. and it is acknowledged by your criminal leader. Your actions and refusals to these principles are not only illegitimate but also illegal. Although you are nothing more than ONE of the TWO communities, you refuse this because you hold hostage the state that you have usurped and using it by all measn to legitimize your crimes. The fact that you are recognized as the RoC despite not satisfying any of these principles is nothing but overriding of political interests to universal principles.

Now please explicitly state whether or not you accept that in the solution of the Cyprus Problem according to the U.N. principles in an RoC: GCs are nothing more than ONE of the TWO communities that have politically equal status to their TC partners in their seperate zone in a federated state called RoC. Do you defy the U.N. and the world on what RoC should be and what your status is in Cyprus? Simple.

[DT.]

Your political status is zero. What the UN and the world recognizes is Republic of Cyprus but instead of being part of RoC you choose illegality.

Wrong again Our political status is equal to your`s and you are nothing more than a community on this island that passes itself as the RoC through illegality and crime. You have to deal with the fact that you are ONE of the TWO politcally equal communities, better sooner than later.

Murataga, could you please define the political equality as quoted in the ONE resolution you've picked to listen to?

Is the definition as given by the secretary general. Would you like to post it or shall i dig it up?

Gladly, as I was the one puttuing the Resolution about BBF with politically equivalent ststus up here in the first place fully aware of the definition of political status and the one supporting it from the begining. It reads exactly the following and it is exactly what I support:

While political equality does not mean equal numerical participation in all federal Government branches and administration, it should be reflected inter alia in various ways: in the requirement that the federal constitution of the State of Cyprus be approved or amended with the concurrences of both communities; in the effective participation of both communities in all organs and decisions of the federal Government; in safeguards to ensure that the federal Government will not be empowered to adopt any measures against the interests of one community; and in the equality and identical powers and functions of the two federated states

This is what I stand by, word for word. Now you tell me, or better yet your buddy Piratis, if this is a "nation vs. minority" analogy or a political equivalence of two communities as analogous to the political equivalence of Greece (with 10 million) and Germany (with 90 million) in the EU parliament.

ooops!

Effective numerical participation in govt is not a 50-50 thing as Murataga states. I completely agree that a bi-zonal federation which will have both states participating. What needs to be clarified is..are these 2 states racist or not?

i.e will a GC family have to move out of the state if the woman is pregnant and the state has already met its quota of GC's allowed to reside there?

Assuming TCs are not primitive wild animals and are civilised just as much as their GC counterparts (believe it or not ) one would expect no such quotas on people giving births because of their ethnicity!

Furthermore, what is persistently confused in these threads by many is the difference between "economic" and "political" equality. If you are talking about the economic or financial one - of course it will not be 50 - 50! It will be based upon the population and the area covered by the prospective participants in the federation. If you are talking about political equality, what is the harm in two states having a 50 - 50 say in their foreign and international policies? Since those policies will be governed by Brussels and EU anyway!

Just like Murataga pointed out to political equality within EU, irrespective of the size of the nations, it would be against the basic principles of EU to say one federal state should have less of a say because of its size. Let us not forget that the ultimate aim of EU is to have a Federal EU in future where all will be federal states. That is why a joint currency, joint army, joint police force and now a single "prime minister" is being proposed!

this is what was discussed before BigOz...if there is no quotas on either animal (GC or TC) then we are not talking about a Greek state and a Turkish state but the 2 states of Cyprus North and SOuth. WIth a consequence of a lot more GC's some day deciding to move to the north state. WHat happens then? There is a chance both states will be GC majority.