Cyprus-Forum.com

[magikthrill]

I've got the impression that you imply it.

insan no i didnt . and sorry if the remark i came out sarcastic i meant to ask you where you read it if i wrote it cause that was not what i meant.

so sorry bout that. its 4:30 am here and i have am idterm tomorrow so im kinda stressed. the good ole' cyprus forum though is the perfect way to procrastinate

[insan]

Good luck to you, magikthrill. Take it easy

[Piratis]

One people can deny the rights of another people - by denying they are a people and this is exactly what you do. You deny us our rights as a people. This denial has been and remains at the root of the Cyprus problem.

The root of the Cyprus problem is that Turkey used the Turkish minority in Cyprus in order to partition the island and take a part for herself.

All these crap about the TC minority being "peoples" is part of the Turkish policy of partitioning the island. Just because a group of people decided that they are "peoples" this doesn't give this group any more rights than all the other Cypriots have. You can name yourselves in any way you want, but you can have only equal rights like everybody else, and there is no excuse for limiting our human rights
If it was like this, then from tomorrow we should all start declaring that we are "peoples" and we have the right to limit the human rights of others.

If you accept that I and my family are a "peoples" just by ourselves, and we deserve "peoples" rights, then I will accept these rights for you. If you do not accept such right for me, I do not accept such right for you either. Why the hell should you have even half more right than I do?

[erolz]

The root of the Cyprus problem is that Turkey used the Turkish minority in Cyprus in order to partition the island and take a part for herself.

The root of the problem is that GC refused to recognise the rights of the TC people as people - this is what led to Turkish miltary action in Cyprus. If you had not (and continue to not) deny us these rights then there would be no division of Cyprus today. No GC refugees. No Turkish forces in Cyprus.

All these crap about the TC minority being "peoples" is part of the Turkish policy of partitioning the island.

There you go again denying our human rights.

Just because a group of people decided that they are "peoples" this doesn't give this group any more rights than all the other Cypriots have. You can name yourselves in any way you want, but you can have only equal rights like everybody else, and there is no excuse for limiting our human rights
If it was like this, then from tomorrow we should all start declaring that we are "peoples" and we have the right to limit the human rights of others.

You do not decide if we are a people and we do not decide if we are a people. What 'decides' if we are a people or not is if we meet the criteria of a people as laid out in the human rights charters. The TC do meet these criteria. You and your family do not. It's that simple.

If you accept that I and my family are a "peoples" just by ourselves, and we deserve "peoples" rights, then I will accept these rights for you. If you do not accept such right for me, I do not accept such right for you either. Why the hell should you have even half more right than I do?

This is nonsense and you must know it. The fact is that anyone other than 'you' accepts that the TC are a people - in that from 1960 onwards they have accepted our right to some form of equality and partnership in Cyprus as a people. You (GC) have rights as a people the same as us. You however think that only GC or GC majority of Cypriots have these rights. It really is very clear. You deny our human rights. You have done so since 1960 and continue to do so today. Your childish arguments that you and your family is a people is just that - childish nonsense. It is an 'excuse' for denying our human rights and frankly not a very convincing one.

[Piratis]

In another thrread I posted all the human rights from the UN. Can you point to me which human right of yours I refuse?

Being "peoples" is not a human right. And claiming that the minority of TCs is "peoples" is just as stupid as me claiming that me and my family are "peoples". The only difference is that you have the tanks of Turkey behind and you are able not to obey the UN resolutions, and act in an illegal way, but I can't do the same (even if I wanted) because I don't have the tanks. Thats the only difference.

If you think that Tanks will get you more rights than I have, then sit there waiting. In the end you will get the exact opposite.

If you think that using force is the correct way of getting your imaginary rights, then we definitely have the same right to get our real rights.

[erolz]

In another thrread I posted all the human rights from the UN. Can you point to me which human right of yours I refuse?

You posted the rights of indivduals from the human rights charters. These same charters also talk about the rights of peoples and you simply ignore this. We have been through this loop so many times. I have posted the human rights charters that relate to peoples before (as you know) - yet each time we get into this discussion you start from scratch again. very tiresome. I could post once again the human rights charters that deal with the rights of peoples - the very rights that you continue to deny us but what would be the point? I have done so in the past but you simply ignore the existance of these rights or insist they do not apply to TC.

Being "peoples" is not a human right.

Being a people is not a human right. Being a people or not is defined by various criteria. It is accpeted by the world that we meet these criteria (otherwise there would never have been any issue in Cyprus or any support for any status of TC other than as a minority). As a people we have the RIGHTS of a people as laid out in the various human rights charters. You continue to deny us our rights as a people - by claiming we are not a people. That is the 'start' of the denial of human rights in Cyprus (by GC against TC) and the source of all subsequent pain and suffering that ordinary Cypriots have suffered.

And claiming that the minority of TCs is "peoples" is just as stupid as me claiming that me and my family are "peoples". The only difference is that you have the tanks of Turkey behind and you are able not to obey the UN resolutions, and act in an illegal way, but I can't do the same (even if I wanted) because I don't have the tanks. Thats the only difference.

The difference between the TC people and your claim to your family being a people is that we meet the various criteria and you do not.

If you think that Tanks will get you more rights than I have, then sit there waiting. In the end you will get the exact opposite.

I do not think that tanks give us more rights. I do think however that you should not be surprised that if you consistenly deny the human rights of others and refuse to accept them you should not be surprised if they are taken by force (just as GC used force against the British to secure their rights human rights to self determination).

If you think that using force is the correct way of getting your imaginary rights, then we definitely have the same right to get our real rights.

I do not think it is the correct way of getting our rights. I do accept though that it became the ONLY way we could secure them against you insistance and refusal to accept them. If in 1960 we said we have rights as a people and you said we do not and then we just invaded to take part of Cyprus then you might have an argument that the route that was taken was not correct. What actualy happened was we said we had rights as a people, you said we don not - the 'world' arbitrated that we did indeed have such rights (and also accepted a need for limits on these rights) - but you simply continued to ignore these rights. Friom 1960 to 1974 you continued to do this - resisting every effort to find a negoitated settlement that accpeted our rights. Force is not the correct way of securing rights but often it is the ONLY way of securing them.

[Piratis]

It is accpeted by the world that we meet these criteria

No it is not. The reason we have negotiations is that we want to find a solution soon. Otherwise we could simply demand for legality to return and for Turkey to obey the UN resolutions.
If China had invaded us, we would be having the exact same negotiations. The occupation by Turkey is not any more legal than it would be the occupation by any other country.

There is not a single official UN document that says that TCs are "peoples". You decided this by yourselves in order to find an excuse to take our human rights away and gain more on our loss.
TCs are the 18% and they are just like any other minority in the world. You believe that you are something special, that deserves super rights. this belief of yours doesn't make your actions any more legal though, and you should be prepared to pay the penalty of your illegal actions when the time will come.

[erolz]

No it is not.

If the world did not accept that the TC exist as a people seperate to the GC people then in 1960 you would simply have got indpendance of the single unitary Cypriot people and gone and joined Greece. If the world today did not accpet the rights of TC as a people seperate from the GC people there would be no talk of 'bi communal' solutions.

The reason we have negotiations is that we want to find a solution soon.

The reason we have negotiations is because your refusal to accept and grant the TC people their rights (from 63 onwards and before) led to you loosing property and land. You want the land back. You do not have the means to take it back by force so you 'agree' to negotiating for it back - whilst all the while continuing to insist the TC people have no rights as people - which is what caused you to losse your properties in the first place.

Otherwise we could simply demand for legality to return and for Turkey to obey the UN resolutions.

Well you tried that ever since you lost your properties. The demand however fell on deaf ears around the world - exactly because such a demand without also a recognition of the TC peoples rights as well was not acceptable to the world.

If China had invaded us, we would be having the exact same negotiations.

What absolute tosh! You really think that if china had invaded Cyprus the negotiations (and that's assuming that force was not used to remove them) would be based on a bi communal solution based on a GC and Chinese commuity in Cyprus. What absolute tosh.

The occupation by Turkey is not any more legal than it would be the occupation by any other country.

The occupation (your word) by Turkey of part of Cyprus is no more legal than the terrorist actions of EOKA were legal.
In any case the actions of Turkey - leagl or otherwise have NOTHING to do with if we are a people or not. There is almost no suprious argument you will not use to deny us our human rights. According to you we are not a people because you say we are not, because we did not live in one area pre 1960, because Turkey has acted illegaly and any other number of excuses besides. None of that changes the fact that we are a people. We share a common language - destinct from GC (and you and your family do not), we share a common religion - destinct from GC (and you and your family do not), we share a common culture destinct from GC (and you and your family do not) , we are of suffient number to adminsiter 'self rule' (total or in a limited compromised way) (and you and your family are not).

You decided this by yourselves in order to find an excuse to take our human rights away and gain more on our loss.

We did not decide we are a people. We are a people. I can no more decide the TC are a people than I can decide if I am human or not. Either I am human or I am not. You telling me that my declaring I am human does not make me human is irrelevant.
We did not insist on our rights as a people in 1960 onwards as a means of depriving you of your rights and stealing your land - quite the reverse. We insited on our rights (though accepting limits on them at the same time) to stop you taking our rights away and gaingin on our loss.

You believe that you are something special, that deserves super rights.

No I refuse to accept that the TC people are something inferior (to the GC people). I ask for no more (and no less) rights than the GC people have. I accept to limit my rights as people to achieve peace in a shared Island as I expect the GC people to do the same.

this belief of yours doesn't make your actions any more legal though, and you should be prepared to pay the penalty of your illegal actions when the time will come.

Just as you should be prepared to accpet the penalty of GC actions to deny TC people their rights that occured in 74?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Erol,

I prefer to think that all Cypriots form "one people" - the correct term with which to distinguish Turkish Cypriots is "community".

If you were indeed a separate people, then by the UN Charter you would have the right to a separate state, and the right to full self-determination (This is what Denktash has been arguing for). But you are not a separate people, you are a separate community.

"Community" is also to be distinguished from "Minority": Minorities do not usually have separate political rights, they just have another vote like everyone else plus some extra cultural rights. Communities, on the other hand, tend to be given a semblance of autonomy in many political systems, very often through Federal arrangements (e.g. Switzerland).

So, to impose this terminology on the discussion you have been having with Piratis, he has been saying that you are just a minority and you have been saying that you are actually a people. The truth is in the middle: You are a community, nothing more and nothing less.

[insan]

You are a community, nothing more and nothing less.

I completely agree, Alexandros. There are two major communities in Cyprus. Both communities have the same political rights at communal level; besides the members of these two major communities have the same rights at the individual level.

The rights of two communities cannot be confused with the rights of individuals, rights of minorities in Cyprus and foreign residents of Cyprus.