Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekForumer]

Furthermore, why did Turkey have to suffer the economic and military embargo by the USA for a very long time during and after the invasion?

Economic embargo ? Are you sure ? What kinds of economic pressures did Turkey suffer ?

I thought it was only a military embargo that ended when the Shah of Iran fell from power (1979).

[DT.]

As is too often the case, contributors have their noses so close to the Cyprus problem that they fail to see what is going on in the rest of the world.

1974 was the year of Watergate. On July 13 the Senate Watergate Committee published its final report after weeks and months of speculation. On July 19 the US Supreme Court ordered the surrender of the Watergate tapes. Between July 27/30 the Articles of Impeachment against Nixon were adopted by the US House of Representatives. On 5 August Nixon resigned.

Do you seriously think that with all this going on, anyone in the American Administration had a thought to spare about Cyprus?

If there is any conspiracy it is more likely that the Greek junta and their GC supporters (and there were many more then than like to admit it now) chose this moment believing that the US would not interfere because it was too preoccupied with its own problems and they could get away with their invasion of Cyprus.

Typical talk of a total tosser, hey man the americans were fucking each other over at the time, so screwing over cyprus at the same time was dead easy for them. As if you expect us to beleive the the US stops its foreign policy during internal issues. Utter crap.

The cyprus problem was designed by the USA, prepared by the british and executed by the Turks. Period. Which ever way you cut it we got screwed on the actions essentially of those 3 nations above. I'm not saying the GCs/TCs/Greeks were angels , they were manupulated to get the US and the british what they wanted. Cyprus.

My answer is why don't they all just fuck off and leave cyprus for the cypriots.

I wonder what other big building the US is gonna blow up as an excuse to go to Iran? Watch this space won't be too long now, and if Miltiades is anything to go by it will be sooner rather than later!

USA might have been the designer of the events - true; but why are you persisting in leaving the biggest actors of the execution ie: Greece and the Greek Junta???

If the original plan favoured an invasion rather than a quiet coup by the Greek military, then why did the British politicians strongly and openly attacked Turkey's presence on the island? Were you around at the time?

I was, and I was glued to daily news every day! This is exactly what the prime minister of UK, James Callaghan at the time said on TV:
"Today Cyprus is a prisoner of the Turkish Army. Tomorrow Turkish Army will be the prisoner of Cyprus".
Hardly the statement of someone who may have conspired with USA for Turkey's invasion!

Furthermore, why did Turkey have to suffer the economic and military embargo by the USA for a very long time during and after the invasion?

I agree that Greece played a pivotal role here but guided by the USA.

As for your other points BigOz...

With regards to Callaghan there may have been an alliance/understanding/conspiracy. Callaghans statements came after the invasion. I think it was Howard Wilson who was PM during the invasion.


WIth regards to the embargo...well lets not call it an embargo. Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfield reversed it straight away. This is what Dick said
“When I went to work for President Ford back in the summer of 1974, our first foreign policy crisis had to do with a dust up between the Greeks and the Turks, who had gone to war over the fate of Cyprus. The response of the Congress at that point was to impose an arms embargo on Turkey…we placed sanctions on Turkey and not on Greece. Why? It was not because it made sense from the standpoint of what was going on Cyprus, or made sense from the standpoint of overall U.S. foreign policy. We sanctioned Turkey because the Greek-American lobby was significantly bigger and more effective than the Turkish-American lobby here at home. That's the sum total of why we did it. Ultimately, we were able to get it reversed. But it took numerous votes in Congress before we were able to turn it around.”
Yes, indeed, and it wasn’t long after 1974 that that the American Friends of Turkey/American Turkish Council (and affiliates) and the Atlantic Council would be up and running in Washington, DC, with the former featuring chapters and affiliations in Illinois, New Jersey, Texas and just about every state in the US Union, including overseas affiliations. The American Turkish groups are likely the “semi-legitimate” non-profit business and cultural groups housing the powerful lobbyists that Edmonds is referring to and that Cheney turns to for policy
guidance.

[pantheman]

As is too often the case, contributors have their noses so close to the Cyprus problem that they fail to see what is going on in the rest of the world.

1974 was the year of Watergate. On July 13 the Senate Watergate Committee published its final report after weeks and months of speculation. On July 19 the US Supreme Court ordered the surrender of the Watergate tapes. Between July 27/30 the Articles of Impeachment against Nixon were adopted by the US House of Representatives. On 5 August Nixon resigned.

Do you seriously think that with all this going on, anyone in the American Administration had a thought to spare about Cyprus?

If there is any conspiracy it is more likely that the Greek junta and their GC supporters (and there were many more then than like to admit it now) chose this moment believing that the US would not interfere because it was too preoccupied with its own problems and they could get away with their invasion of Cyprus.

Typical talk of a total tosser, hey man the americans were fucking each other over at the time, so screwing over cyprus at the same time was dead easy for them. As if you expect us to beleive the the US stops its foreign policy during internal issues. Utter crap.

The cyprus problem was designed by the USA, prepared by the british and executed by the Turks. Period. Which ever way you cut it we got screwed on the actions essentially of those 3 nations above. I'm not saying the GCs/TCs/Greeks were angels , they were manupulated to get the US and the british what they wanted. Cyprus.

My answer is why don't they all just fuck off and leave cyprus for the cypriots.

I wonder what other big building the US is gonna blow up as an excuse to go to Iran? Watch this space won't be too long now, and if Miltiades is anything to go by it will be sooner rather than later!

USA might have been the designer of the events - true; but why are you persisting in leaving the biggest actors of the execution ie: Greece and the Greek Junta???

If the original plan favoured an invasion rather than a quiet coup by the Greek military, then why did the British politicians strongly and openly attacked Turkey's presence on the island? Were you around at the time?

I was, and I was glued to daily news every day! This is exactly what the prime minister of UK, James Callaghan at the time said on TV:
"Today Cyprus is a prisoner of the Turkish Army. Tomorrow Turkish Army will be the prisoner of Cyprus".
Hardly the statement of someone who may have conspired with USA for Turkey's invasion!

Furthermore, why did Turkey have to suffer the economic and military embargo by the USA for a very long time during and after the invasion?

Oh Please BigoZ, james callaghan, may he go to hell, was an intrument in the whole plan. His statements were purely political to cover his own arse. What has the British government done since to make turkey the prisoner of cyprus ? Oh I know, they want to to them into the fucking EU even faster cos it suits them. As for Greece and the junta, come on, its public knowledge now they were CIA controlled and guess what, greece counldn't go to cyprus at that time if it wanted to.

Come on guys, lets not beat about the bush (for want of a better word), we all know the history of how and why cyprus was taken, lets look to how we are gonna get out of this sorry mess.

Cyprus for the cypriots, can we make a start on that ?

All forces out of cyprus ?

Proper dialogue (not sure how) between TCs and GCs. This is the 21st century and there has been much blood spilt on both sides, we can talk without bullets ?

People return to their rightful homes ?

A new era for cyprus ?

What say you??

[souroul]

ohhh, ok there we go.. so now you're disagreeing with cypezokyli that the US didnt organize the whole thing and that they didnt have a motive to do what they did.

thats all i wanted to get out of you, thanks.

so.. there you have it. the CIA paid/made junta overthrow the government in cyprus SO THAT turkey would have a reason to invade, with some help of course... SO THAT cyprus didnt side with the soviets.

Lesson learned. Next time the US asks for military bases, give it to them.

Thank god mother Turkey helped those poor TCs eh? killed 2 birds with one stone. god forbid 18% of the population didnt control half the government. my god, disaster


wait, i know.. lets give the kurds half the government of turkey. that'd be more than fair. no wait, they're some 25% of the population of turkey (not counting the 4 mil in iran, 5 mil in iraq and god knows how many elsewhere) , so lets give them 65%... more proportional. its the right thing to do eh? if they dont accept lets just invade turkey and grab half of it.

i bet bush would be drooling over this.

hm.. the us didnt organize the whole thing

and they had nothing to win.. ok. so kissinger woke up one day with nothing to do and was like.. hell, lets give the turks guns and tell them to invade cyprus.

just to make things clear.
ofcource the USA organised coups all over the world, and ofcource they dont give a shit about innocent people.

in the case of cyprus, there is not enough evidence that suggests that the US organised the whole thing.
there is also no evidence that suggests that the US has or had anything to win from the invasion.

what there is evidence of is that they had information about it..... the reaction of state department was: is really ioanides such a moron, that he expects that a coup will not cause a turkish reaction ? unfortunately the stupidity of ioannides is beyond my understanding.

the US after shit hit the fun, had only one objective : to avoid war between greece and turkey.
it made no difference for them, if cyprus united with greece, or turkey invaded.
when they had interests that turkey should not invade cyprus, they prevented it.
in 74 things changed, since the Soviet Union also didnot give a shit about cyprus anymore.

the only way one can blame the US, is by taking an "ethical path". that they as a super power had a "moral duty to prevent the coup and the coming invasion".

if one sees Iraq and still expects "moralities" .....

...............
read also :
United States Policy towards Cyprus, 1954–1974: Removing the Greek-Turkish Bone of Contention. By Claude Nicolet. (Mannheim: Bibliopolis, 2001. 483 pp. € 42.90, ISBN 3-933925-20-7.)

it seriously questions numerous myths that exist in cyprus about the american foreign policy.......

Does the fact that Makarios and Greece were seeking assistance from Russia have anything to do with it>>>>>

[bigOz]

I have to answer the above collectively so here we go:

DT you are absolutely right! Wilson was the PM but James Callaghan was the Foreign Secretary when he made that statement. It was so long ago my memory failed me as to his correct position - he did in fact become the PM couple of years later.

pantheman At the end of the day, as I expressed before it was a "win-win" situation for NATO and their allies irrespective of who did what.

There is no doubt I agree with your points especially those regarding talking as civilised people in preference to violence, but if only everyone else on the island thought the same... Unfortunately it will be a very long road!

GreekForumer is obviously unable to see the effect of the lack of any military aid, offered at the time to both Turkey and Greece, on their respective economies! Turkey and Greece were in an arms race, both of who spent probably no less than half their national income on arming themselves every year. You do nut just but jet fighters, tanks and artillery on a one off basis. They need maintenance and resupplies. Just to give you a simple example, every time a jet fighter takes off and lands so many times, their tyres need to be replaced. Other military equipment require maintenance and replacement parts constantly. They can amount to a very large proportion of a nations income if they were previously depending on military aid from an external source. Turkey or Greece would not have their armies ground to a halt for the next 4 years because the military aid had stopped. In fact the military sanctions you mention dealt the greatest blow to Turkey's economy with the inflation spiralling to abnormal levels for the next decade, never really recovering until recently.

Maintaining the levels of readiness for military action by both Greece and Turkey was a very high burden financially and economically. So as far as I am concerned military sanctions at the time were analogous to economic sanctions.

souroul, you are clearly thinking in very simplistic terms and with irrelevant examples / scenarios. The issues you mention had been discussed in some detail in other threads. Being an old member I am sure you must have read them. So really I have no idea what your message is!

And by the way, can you please provide us with some formal or official data on the population count of Kurds in Turkey? 25% Kurds? At this rate by the end of this year they'll probably be 50% of the population - so you are right let's give them half the country - but perhaps you can also help by telling us who is going to do the invasion!

Also almost half the government ministers in Turkey ARE probably Turkish citizens of Kurdish origin anyway. They even had a Prime Minister and a President who belonged to the same ethnic origin. But how's that going to help the Cyprus problem I haven't got a clue!

[joe]

Update to this story from www.opednews.com
______________________________________________

CIA Document Dump Just Confirms Kissinger's Dark Rep

by Wayne Madsen Page 1 of 1 page(s)

http://www.opednews.com



The recent release by the CIA of documents concerning the agency's illegal surveillance of Americans and involvement in the assassinations of Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, Salvador Allende of Chile, and Patrice Lumumba of Congo, as well as assassinations plots against Fidel Castro, prove what authors and scholars have already concluded about the agency. Most noteworthy is the involvement of Henry Kissinger in giving the green light to Turkey's invasion of Cyprus.

_______________________

full story here:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne ... ump_ju.htm

[DT.]

I have to answer the above collectively so here we go:

DT you are absolutely right! Wilson was the PM but James Callaghan was the Foreign Secretary when he made that statement. It was so long ago my memory failed me as to his correct position - he did in fact become the PM couple of years later.

pantheman At the end of the day, as I expressed before it was a "win-win" situation for NATO and their allies irrespective of who did what.

There is no doubt I agree with your points especially those regarding talking as civilised people in preference to violence, but if only everyone else on the island thought the same... Unfortunately it will be a very long road!

GreekForumer is obviously unable to see the effect of the lack of any military aid, offered at the time to both Turkey and Greece, on their respective economies! Turkey and Greece were in an arms race, both of who spent probably no less than half their national income on arming themselves every year. You do nut just but jet fighters, tanks and artillery on a one off basis. They need maintenance and resupplies. Just to give you a simple example, every time a jet fighter takes off and lands so many times, their tyres need to be replaced. Other military equipment require maintenance and replacement parts constantly. They can amount to a very large proportion of a nations income if they were previously depending on military aid from an external source. Turkey or Greece would not have their armies ground to a halt for the next 4 years because the military aid had stopped. In fact the military sanctions you mention dealt the greatest blow to Turkey's economy with the inflation spiralling to abnormal levels for the next decade, never really recovering until recently.

Maintaining the levels of readiness for military action by both Greece and Turkey was a very high burden financially and economically. So as far as I am concerned military sanctions at the time were analogous to economic sanctions.

souroul, you are clearly thinking in very simplistic terms and with irrelevant examples / scenarios. The issues you mention had been discussed in some detail in other threads. Being an old member I am sure you must have read them. So really I have no idea what your message is!

And by the way, can you please provide us with some formal or official data on the population count of Kurds in Turkey? 25% Kurds? At this rate by the end of this year they'll probably be 50% of the population - so you are right let's give them half the country - but perhaps you can also help by telling us who is going to do the invasion!

Also almost half the government ministers in Turkey ARE probably Turkish citizens of Kurdish origin anyway. They even had a Prime Minister and a President who belonged to the same ethnic origin. But how's that going to help the Cyprus problem I haven't got a clue!

hmm kept your cool, answered in turn..no swearing...Dangnabitt boy i'm proud of you.

[souroul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

Turkey 12 to 15 million
Iran 4.8 to 6.6 million
Iraq 4 to 6 million
Syria 0.9 to 2.8 million

i thought turkey had 60 mil so i said 25%. turns out its 70, so roughly 20?

[bigOz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

Turkey 12 to 15 million
Iran 4.8 to 6.6 million
Iraq 4 to 6 million
Syria 0.9 to 2.8 million

i thought turkey had 60 mil so i said 25%. turns out its 70, so roughly 20?

OK! Let's get this into a better perspective.

- To start with everyone agrees that no country or nation by the name of "Kurdistan" ever existed in the area. The proposition was first made as a result of:

"From 1915 to 1918, Kurds struggled to end Ottoman rule over their region. They were encouraged by Woodrow Wilson's support for non-Turkish nationalities of the empire and submitted their claim for independence to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. The Treaty of Sèvres stipulated creation of an autonomous Kurdish state in 1920, but the subsequent Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 failed to mention Kurds. In 1925 and 1930 Kurdish revolts were forcibly suppressed."

Modern Turkey has no duty or obligation to break up its borders for a non-existent Kurdistan, which was proposed by a US president during the dark ages of Ottomans.

- Expulsion of Kurds from local hot-spots in Syria and Iraq over many decades resulted in most of them emigrating and settling in the relative safety of South Eastern Turkey. Hence, around half the Kurdish population in the world are believed to live in Turkey.

- No one actually counted the Kurds to arrive at current figures. At best, they are estimates - usually inflated to gain political points. In fact, Wikipedia does state that:

"The best available estimate of the number of persons in Turkey speaking a Kurdish-related language is about five million (1980)." - with no explanation to how the number can treble in 25 years!

- Kurds in the area speak 3 different languages which none of the others can understand. This is mainly due to influx of Kurds from different parts in that area and a proof that they are not indigenous to that area.

The same happened when Chemical Ali gassed them and more than half a million Kurds fled to Turkey for protection - many staying behind, as they did when they were fleeing the Syrians in earlier fights in that area.

- Kurdish people are not the sole residents of South Eastern Turkey. There are as many residents of Turkish and Arabic origin, and a lot of mixed ethnicity as a result marriages between these three groups.

- The whole of Eastern Anatolia and South Eastern Turkey had remained economically impoverished, NOT because Kurds lived there, but because after the creation of "Turkiye" as a republic, the Western half of Turkey was more favoured by traders and investors due to their proximity to Europe. Also the coastal traditional trading towns along the South and Aegean coast were obviously better off. Those Kurds who moved out to West or coastal towns were not discriminated against at all, and ended up enjoying the same educational and economic benefits, some of them becoming wealthy businessmen themselves.

With her limited resources Turkiye's successive governments concentrated on providing roads, schools, electrical grids etc to the more economically prosperous areas (a mistake, but not unusual for many economies of the West at the time)

- Many Kurds admit themselves that S.E Turkey ended up as a barren land and economically underdeveloped because of the feudal "aga" (landlord) system they followed as tribes, even after the declaration of the republic.
(The land that was once covered by forests was now barren, because of the indiscriminate destruction of trees to provide heating and cooking fire for the inhabitants over couple of centuries.)

- Faced with a large uneducated and unattended population in the South East, successive Turkish governments during the second half of 20th century had to find a way of educating their citizens and improving the economy in that area. Those Kurds who moved to West of the country ended up with better education and economic prospects that applied to the rest of the citizens in the area.

- Some Kurds (newer arrivals) stuck to their original tribal language, whilst others including non-Kurds spoke in a dialect that was a mixture of Turkish - Arabic - and Kurdish. The common language had to be the Turkish language accepted as the official one for the whole country.

- When roads and schools started to appear, there was (and is) a reaction to learning Turkish language by some fanatic factions, claiming they should learn their own ethnic language(s) in Kurdish instead. No country would allow this because that means a different set of citizens who do not speak the official language, but their own. One can see the problems arising from that, in terms of further education or trade relations with the locals in a country where Turkish is used by all the rest.

- The Kurds were (and are) claiming they are not permitted to use their own language, when in reality the priority of the state is to provide every town and village with a school that can teach proper Turkish. What is the point of allowing Kurdish schools, when locals cannot communicate in that nations language? When a level of educational standard is reached and everyone can communicate using the common official language then they can learn Kurdish or Chinese for that matter.

Just in case people did not know - even in Europe now, many countries can refuse citizenship to many ethnic members, if they cannot speak the official language of that nation! Recently in UK, people from ethnic minorities have to take a test in English before being given citizenship.

In USA, people have to take an "oath of allegiance" before being granted a citizenship. Something similar is currently being proposed for those from ethnic minorities wishing to become British citizens in UK. Can you imagine a similar demand by the Turkish government from the Kurds? There would be cries of "assimilation", attempts to destroy a culture or whatever...

Many traditional enemies of Turkiye try to inflate and maintain the Kurdish problem to serve their political purposes. But the truth is, even if the governments of Turkiye over the past two decades have recognised there is an economic and political hot-spot in the area that needs to be corrected, it cannot be done in a year or two or five! This problem is a product of at least a century of developments in that area - it will take a very long time to put it right.

Current and recent previous Turkish governments have put a lot of effort into improving life for their citizens in the area. Schools, motorways, dams, financial and agricultural aid, grants to start of industries have been pouring into the area over the past 15 years. So much so that many Kurds who escaped the terrors of PKK have now returned back to their villages and towns (to many's displeasure).

Recent national and international media reports are reflecting the fast economic developments and the affluence of the people living in the area. Half a dozen dams built across S.E Turkey over the past 15 years has turned the barren area into a very cultivable land, where nuts, chickpeas, cotton fields, and even fruit orchards have started to fill up the landscape! Citizens in the area are so happy with the developments that they have seized what little support they were giving to PKK, refusing to join in their claim for an autonomous state or any separation from Turkiye. This resulted in the bombing of some towns, predominantly of Kurdish ethnic origin in the area, by the PKK within the past 6 months - who are clearly trying to use the old scare tactics to gain support. But they are fighting a lost war that has no aim or pupose as far as the citizens of Kurdish origin in Turkey are concerned.

Meanwhile those who are living abroad and those enemies of Turkic nations can continue to make wild allegations and proposals about the purpose of the PKK or the suffering of Kurds in today's Turkey. It will serve no purpose at all and will have no effect on the fast developing economy of secular Turkey. They dealt with PKK when they were at their strongest during early 1990's - I believe they will deal with whatever little terrorist activity currently exists, even more efficiently now.

Just like there is no point in me going on about the ethnic oppression Turks went through in Thrace, Bulgaria, and Russia over many decades before USSR broke up...My suggestion is, lets leave Turkiye and her Kurdish problem for those whose lives are concerned with it, and concern ourselves with the problems we face as Cypriots in Cyprus now!

NOTE: Population of Turkey is currently 74 million.

[humanist]

Like anyone cares what Kisinger did or is the report likely to changes the stauts quo and the OCCUPATION of Cyprus by Turkey.

NB: Population of Turkey 74million 250, 000