Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

Cannedmoose, what changed is this:

Turkey until "yesterday" thought that she had solved the Cyprus problem in 1974. they said this themselves numerous times. For them solution means to get what they want.
Recently they discovered that Cyprus can be a problem for them. All these changes have very little to do with Erdogan, Talad or Denctash, and everything to do with the EU accession of Cyprus.

So now that Turkey has seen that the Cyprus problem was still there for her, she called all her allies to solve her problem. The Annan plan was the solution to the problem of Turkey, not the solution to our problem. Or do you think is a coincidence that all those Ananas were rushing to "solve" the Cyprus problem before May 1st 2004, while no such rush existed in the last 30 years?

Papadopoulos is on the right track. The truth is that he has very little power, but he is trying his best. What he will try to do is to make Turkey understand that she can not have the cake and eat it. If they want their problems to end, they should accept a solution that will solve our problems as well.

Piratis, I agree with you, the Annan Plan was indeed all about reaching a solution prior to May 1st. From the very beginning of Cyprus EU application in 1990, the EU expressed their preference that the Cyprus problem would be solved by the time of accession. If it wasn't for Greek intransigence at the European Council in 1995, Cyprus would not have been permitted to begin the accession course due to worries amongst the member states of making the Cyprus problem a 'European problem'.

I disagree with your point about personalities. I think the current leaders that I wrote about are important and the movements we are seeing right now would not be happening in their absence, particularly in the case of Erdogan, who I personally regard as the most progressive Turkish leader we have seen in many, many decades.

I also agree with you that the Annan Plan was not perfect, I've stated that on here before. But to simply dismiss it as a Turkish/British/American plot against Cyprus is irrational.

As for Papadopoulos not having much power, this is debateable. True, he isn't a collosus on the international stage, but this is not to say that he can't be. Despite his faults, Clerides was quite highly regarded around the world for his willingness to talk to all sides and willingness to listen. I'm not saying he was perfect, but he was a man they could do business with. Instead, you now have a leader who is widely distrusted, particularly in Europe. When he visits European capitals, he is not feted, rather he is met in private and disappointment is expressed to him regarding the collapse of the process.

I don't doubt that in his heart, Papadopoulos hopes for an end to all this. What he should do is to approach Erdogan directly and publicly, request a summit to discuss the problem, leader to leader, in both Ankara and Nicosia, express his hope that the offer will be accepted and be willing to address Turkey's concerns as well as forwarding his own. If he does this, I'm sure he would gain back a great deal of the respect that he lost last April.

I don't believe he will, but if he does, I will publicly eat my cannedmoose that is pictured in the middle of Ledra St on a busy Saturday.

Come on Tassos, there's a challenge for you.

[Saint Jimmy]

Come on Tassos, there's a challenge for you.

Now, there's a gesture of good will

[Piratis]

But to simply dismiss it as a Turkish/British/American plot against Cyprus is irrational.

It is not irrational at all. We live the "new order", and in this new order the Americans and their allies do whatever they feel like and they don't even have tho wear their masks anymore. This is not just in Cyprus, this is around the world. All they need is an excuse, and it doesn't even need to be a good excuse anymore. Now they are planning to invade Iran, and North Korea seems to be the next one.

As boulio wrote in another thread, the Americans and the British are trying to force Russia on their side for the Cyprus problem. Russia is big, friendly country and is still resisting, but this is not the case with other weaker countries that depend on the Americans.

Maybe you prefer to close your eyes in the "cowboy" ways of the American administration that with their allies (mainly UK, Turkey and Israel) are trying to dominate and control the whole world.

Now it is true that against such powers there is nothing much we can do. However this doesn't mean we should bent to be fucked, and I hope that the powerful got the message of september 11.

[Saint Jimmy]

Whoa!!! A lot of big issues here...

It is not irrational at all. We live the "new order", and in this new order the Americans and their allies do whatever they feel like and they don't even have tho wear their masks anymore. This is not just in Cyprus, this is around the world. All they need is an excuse, and it doesn't even need to be a good excuse anymore. Now they are planning to invade Iran, and North Korea seems to be the next one.

'Not even a good excuse', huh? OK, Piratis, how would you go about disarming these countries of their nuclear bombs? And who knows how many terrorist attacks the USA have saved the world from, with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? At any rate, the point is that the States, the UK, Turkey, Zimbabwe, Denmark, Chile, Cyprus, and every single country in the world will do what serves its own interests. Fact. Liking it, or not, cannot change anything. Learning to live with it, however, and figuring out ways in which we can turn this fact to our benefit, since we cannot change it, is the only way to go.

Now it is true that against such powers there is nothing much we can do. However this doesn't mean we should bent to be fucked, and I hope that the powerful got the message of september 11.

What exactly was that message, Piratis? What were those idiotic terrorists avenging? The fact that the States feel that Jews are entitled to their own country? You call the real reason behind the US' current policy on rogue nations a 'message'???

[insan]

Well said Jimmy. I'm an admirer of your intelligence. If only %10 of each communities have been able to comprehend and understand the facts going around them, like you did; there would have been an "army" of inelligentsia that capable to guide the Cypriots towards the right direction.

[metecyp]

What I would prefer to see is a man determined to win back the respect of the international community...

and he has to win back the respect of TCs. What Denktash represents for GCs is what Papadopoulos represents for TCs.

[magikthrill]

'Not even a good excuse', huh? OK, Piratis, how would you go about disarming these countries of their nuclear bombs? And who knows how many terrorist attacks the USA have saved the world from, with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? At any rate, the point is that the States, the UK, Turkey, Zimbabwe, Denmark, Chile, Cyprus, and every single country in the world will do what serves its own interests. Fact. Liking it, or not, cannot change anything. Learning to live with it, however, and figuring out ways in which we can turn this fact to our benefit, since we cannot change it, is the only way to go.

Saint Jimmy,

Since I am a US citizen and you are a British one (or at least I've gotten that idea from your views and location):
If I want your opinion on matters of international security I will dictate it to you as is the procedure with US-British relations

Piratis is very right on his views. Invading Iraq was wrong and maybe if the US didn't show such imperialism North Korea wouldn't need nuclear weapons. And why is it that Israel should have nuclear weapons and not other countries? I mean the 2nd biggest terrorist nation after the US happens to be Israel.

BUt as Piratis has said, its all about the "New Order".

[Saint Jimmy]

Saint Jimmy,

Since I am a US citizen and you are a British one (or at least I've gotten that idea from your views and location):
If I want your opinion on matters of international security I will dictate it to you as is the procedure with US-British relations

Unfortunately, I am just a poor old Greek Cypriot, studying in the UK. Nice one though; protocol is there to be kept
Although, seriously, Blair is not a lapdog, make no mistake about that. He backed the US in Iraq by choice, because he agreed with the cause, and his government nearly collapsed because of this choice. Plus, some of the intelligence that suggested that Iraq had WMD was his own's MI6...

Piratis is very right on his views. Invading Iraq was wrong and maybe if the US didn't show such imperialism North Korea wouldn't need nuclear weapons. And why is it that Israel should have nuclear weapons and not other countries? I mean the 2nd biggest terrorist nation after the US happens to be Israel.

All right. Invading Iraq was wrong? Why is that? Because they didn't find WMD? Their intelligence strongly suggested that Iraq did have them (that wasn't a lie, don't get carried away by Michael Moore's exaggerations/lies: he's just a funny guy that means well, but he's not right ), and, anyway, as Piratis rightly argued, that was just a pretext, an excuse. The real point is that the US (well, Cheney, Rice and Wolfowitz, for the most part, and Bush right there behind them) will not allow any more terrorism. And they will do whatever it takes, however long it takes. This is what causes these wars, not oil, not Saddam trying to kill the guy's daddy. And I happen to agree with that, in principle.
Now, the main problem with Iran and North Korea (and India) having nuclear weapons is not actual possession. As you pointed out, Israel also has them. Trouble is, these nations represent a true threat as to the potential use of such weapons: Iran against Israel, India against Pakistan, North Korea against South Korea. These are true possibilities. Plus, Israel is an ally to the US, that can be contained... None of these nations have any kind of warm diplomatic relations to the US, and obviously the US will not tolerate them upgrading their weaponry!

BUt as Piratis has said, its all about the "New Order".

Yes, very true. It is all about the ''New Order'', as it always is, with every empire, superpower, intergalactic invaders, call it what you will. And the sooner we all accept it, and try to make the system work for our benefit, the better. It's not 'right' or 'wrong', it just is.

[magikthrill]

st. jimmy,

this isnt the place to debate about the war on iraq but i feel like you've been fed a whole lot of horse poo regarding this issue.

the war in iraq was wrong because it was all about the oil (any half minded human being can understand this). if america hadnt imposed sanctions on iraq, then the iraqis would be strong enough to overthrow sadam on their own.

but enough w/ that.

[erolz]

BUt as Piratis has said, its all about the "New Order".

There is nothing 'new' about it, unless by new you mean the last 500 years. Europeans and neo Europeans (USA and others) have been trying to 'control the world' since 1500 onwards and been doing a pretty good job at it as well. Certainly the methods have changed over time and some of the relative positions of European and neo European elements have change in regards to each other (but not in regard to the rest of the world) - but the underlying objective of ensuring protecting and continuing European / Neo European dominace over the rest of the world remains unchanged.