Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Thanks Kikapu for the reply. It sounds like a better solution than what the Partitionist would like. Lots of TCs would go along with this idea as well as a lot of politicians. If only.....they had the courage to say so!!
What would our GC friends say about this. Most of them might not like the Idea of a dual federal state but might see it as the only working solution. I hope we hear from our other friends. Some replies I can already predict.
Regards
DA

Well, we all know what the partitionist want. They want the Northern Cyprus to be self claimed TC land, as if it has been that way for the last 400 years or more, therefore they will form a Union with the South only in a form of a Confederacy and that they can also declare independence at later date if they wish to do so, because they "own " the North. That will never fly.

"Dual Federal State".? You do understand Denizaksulu, that both the states are part of ONE Cyprus, and under ONE Federal Government. All it means, that The island has TWO separate LOCAL Authorities as to what they want in their own states. One can choose to have legalise Gambling, Prostitution, no State Tax or Sales Tax on goods (VAT), but both will have Federal Taxes of course on income.. Schools will have their own curriculum, their own legal system, their own qualifications system for lawyers and Doctors. If we had National Guards, they can have their own, as many as they want, because they will have to pay for them, as well as the police. Federal Government can pay to use those National Guards in time of "war" against Cyprus, the Federation.

All Cypriots will have the right to reside where ever they want, regardless of ethnicity. There can be no limit on this, or else the Federal Rules on Human Rights and Discrimination will be broken. Same goes for employment. Property ownership is the same. They are TWO separate States, but are not TWO separate Countries.

Having agreed to a Federal System, then most of the laws on the present Constitution for the Republic of Cyprus will no longer apply. For instance, you cannot have a Vice President veto what the President decides. Any veto has to come from the Senate and the Congress. Mechanisms have to be built in so that there are no advantages and disadvantages because of the numbers on ethnic divide, at least for the next 25 years or so, and then we can all go and re visit this arrangement to make the necessary corrections, if both sides agree. I'm hoping in 25 years or so, our political system will be based more on ideology rather than ethnicity.

Our good friend Kifeas had once put together a workable political equation that was fair to the TC's because of their low numbers versus the GC's, as far as voting on Governmental level on decision making process. I hope he would re post it here, for all of us to see it again.

[bigOz]

Thanks Kikapu for the reply. It sounds like a better solution than what the Partitionist would like. Lots of TCs would go along with this idea as well as a lot of politicians. If only.....they had the courage to say so!!
What would our GC friends say about this. Most of them might not like the Idea of a dual federal state but might see it as the only working solution. I hope we hear from our other friends. Some replies I can already predict.
Regards
DA

No offence DA but I sometimes wonder if we have been participating in a different forum! What has been said about a workable "bi-zonal federation" is what the great majority of the TCs and my countless posts have been supporting!

Some members may have changed their approach to the subject, but that to me is mildly annoying because myself and some other members have in recent past been called partitionists or ATCA propagandists for making the very same propositions!

Sorry, but although I would applaud and approve a positive change in anyone, I am a little weary of sending up the fireworks because people may have come to the same conclusion 2 months later!

Furthermore, I would like to hear from Piratis, Epsilon, Get Real and perhaps Kifeas too, how they would feel about a "bizonal federal Cyprus state" with equal political rights to TCs and self-governing in their part of the federal state...

By the way - wasn't the type of federation we are talking about here covered by the original Annan Plan? (Or at least somethingh very similar to it that would have been open to discusion and a final settlement by both sides)

[DT.]

it is no use trying to write anything unconstitutional in State laws that are racist, undemocratic, or against Human Right,

key words from kikapu

[Kikapu]

Thanks Kikapu for the reply. It sounds like a better solution than what the Partitionist would like. Lots of TCs would go along with this idea as well as a lot of politicians. If only.....they had the courage to say so!!
What would our GC friends say about this. Most of them might not like the Idea of a dual federal state but might see it as the only working solution. I hope we hear from our other friends. Some replies I can already predict.
Regards
DA

No offence DA but I sometimes wonder if we have been participating in a different forum! What has been said about a workable "bi-zonal federation" is what the great majority of the TCs and my countless posts have been supporting!

Some members may have changed their approach to the subject, but that to me is mildly annoying because myself and some other members have in recent past been called partitionists or ATCA propagandists for making the very same propositions!

Sorry, but although I would applaud and approve a positive change in anyone, I am a little weary of sending up the fireworks because people may have come to the same conclusion 2 months later!
Furthermore, I would like to hear from Piratis, Epsilon, Get Real and perhaps Kifeas too, how they would feel about a "bizonal federal Cyprus state" with equal political rights to TCs and self-governing in their part of the federal state...

By the way - wasn't the type of federation we are talking about here covered by the original Annan Plan? (Or at least somethingh very similar to it that would have been open to discusion and a final settlement by both sides)

BigOz,

This has been my position for very long time. I have written about a 10 year plan close to 6 months ago to implement the Federal Solution, based on Kifeas's political equation, where the TC's would not be in any disadvantage, to their minority numbers in the Government decision making, where the TC's had veto muscle and yet very democratic. The fact that you and DT have discussed this very recently, only adds to my beliefs, that this is the only way to go. By the way, VP can verify my claims to the above, which he was first to agree with it, but never pushed it any further beyond that, at least very little, in comparison to a Partition.

[bigOz]

it is no use trying to write anything unconstitutional in State laws that are racist, undemocratic, or against Human Right,

key words from kikapu

And all American states respect the current Human Rights???
And there is no racism in American states???
Furthermore, all Federal laws in U.S. are democratic and faultless when it comes to human rights???
Correct me if I am wrong, but U.S. have still not signed the Human Rights Charter, or have they?

I still say we need unique federal states for GCs and TCs - after all, it is generally accepted by all that this kind of a federal country, where two ethnic communities will live under two separate sets of local rules will be a first one of its kind.

[Kikapu]

it is no use trying to write anything unconstitutional in State laws that are racist, undemocratic, or against Human Right,

key words from kikapu

And all American states respect the current Human Rights???
And there is no racism in American states???
Furthermore, all Federal laws in U.S. are democratic and faultless when it comes to human rights???
Correct me if I am wrong, but U.S. have still not signed the Human Rights Charter, or have they?

I still say we need unique federal states for GCs and TCs - after all, it is generally accepted by all that this kind of a federal country, where two ethnic communities will live under two separate sets of local rules will be a first one of its kind.

BigOz,

I think you are trying to reinvent the "Wheel".

The US Federal System works perfectly well, despite the fact the Constitution was written during the time of Slavery and even by Slave owners, and had Colin Powell run for President in 2000, he would have been the first Black President of the USA, because over time with changing of times, the present US Constitution having gone through many "amendments" since it's inception, have all the safe guards to all of it's citizens without Racist, Undemocratic, and Human Right Violations. Is it perfect, no it is not, but that is the nice thing about such documents, just as in Law, that the fabric that holds it together gets stronger with added new pieces to it. The constitution that failed the Republic of Cyprus had no possibilities to strengthen it's fabric, because we had two opposing ethnicity trying to take the best part for themselves, and not to strengthen the Republic.

[denizaksulu]

BigOz;Hello, thanks for the response. With all the in depth bickering the aim of some of the forum members gets very vague. I wanted to see what a final analyses of all these to and fro arguments would end up as..
My use of the word "dual federal state" was very generalised. Something that I would not do in the future.
No I am not taking any offence, as we are here to express our opinions. Between the dust and smoke of the sabre rattling it is sometimes difficult to see.
Regards
Selamlar
DA

[Piratis]

What we could agree for is a true Federation (like the one in USA) with 2 such Cypriot states, where the only difference between them is one will have a GC majority and the other one a TC majority, and where the land distribution will be about 18%-82%. This is the BBF we have agreed for, not the disguised partition most TCs call "federation", which is anything but a federation. In fact the model of Annan plan was based on the Swiss confederation (http://www.admin.ch/) but it was made even looser than that, making it nothing more than partition. For example even in the Swiss confederation the central state is above the cantons, while in Annan plan not even that would be the case!!

Here is what Sevgul says about how TCs view "unification":

The main problem concerning `reunification` of the island for the mainstream Turkish Cypriot media is that it is subconsciously based on `two separate entities coming together`, not seeing that this is a remnant of `Taksim` policies… The focus is on `Bizonality` and with this, the `legitimization` of `the results of 1974`… No one is contesting that any future cooperation of our communities should be based on multiculturalism, rather than on the `hegemony` of the Greek Cypriot community in all fields… But how `bizonality` is perceived is a big problem because deep down, the ideology of `Taksim` is still there and has not been wiped out from the subconscious thinking of `duality` and `separatism` from the minds of some mainstream Turkish Cypriot journalists.

So we have already said we accept Federation. But as is the case with the USA, the whole country belongs to all the citizens. You don't have an "African American State" a "Hispanic State", a "White State" etc. Just in some states Hispanics happen to be a majority, in other states Whites happen to be a majority etc. Also in the USA there is a central government with a single president which is elected by all Americans as a whole.

However, what most TCs want to do is to Turkify a part of our country and call it Turkish. That is unacceptable.

it is no use trying to write anything unconstitutional in State laws that are racist, undemocratic, or against Human Right

I 100% agree with that. The solution can only be within the framework of democracy and human rights without racist discriminations. There can be no excuse for trying to impose something undemocratic and racist resembling South Africa of apartheid.

TCs have to realize that united Cyprus means there is no "Turkish Cyprus" (in any form) but one Cyprus for all Cypriots. If they want part of Cyprus to be Turkish, then they should just admit that what they want is in fact partition and stop trying to disguise it.

[zan]

How did I miss this thread

Yeah yeah yeah Kikapu...new leaf and all that...just admit it you lost



Anyway...As this is your baby I have an idea and I think you should ythink up a way to execute it.

I want you to set up a system on this forum so that we can have a working model of the system you discribe and we should then try to see if it works. You are charged with sorting out the preliminaries first though in what is to happen with the refugees from both sides and what happens with the land distribution etc.....
This is not to see who is more clever or who can win points but will the system work properly. It will also help people like me that are not so technically minded in this respect to understand the system. If it is something that works for all concerned I see no reason why it should not be implimented and that is what VP and all the TCs have been saying all along. All we want is a fair deal that is all. I really want to explore this and why you think it is any different than the A Plan. It will also be your job to sell it to all parties. So what are you waiting for Mr Kofi Kikapu!!!! I am not joking by the way.

[Kikapu]

How did I miss this thread

Yeah yeah yeah Kikapu...new leaf and all that...just admit it you lost



Anyway...As this is your baby I have an idea and I think you should ythink up a way to execute it.

I want you to set up a system on this forum so that we can have a working model of the system you discribe and we should then try to see if it works. You are charged with sorting out the preliminaries first though in what is to happen with the refugees from both sides and what happens with the land distribution etc.....
This is not to see who is more clever or who can win points but will the system work properly. It will also help people like me that are not so technically minded in this respect to understand the system. If it is something that works for all concerned I see no reason why it should not be implimented and that is what VP and all the TCs have been saying all along. All we want is a fair deal that is all. I really want to explore this and why you think it is any different than the A Plan. It will also be your job to sell it to all parties. So what are you waiting for Mr Kofi Kikapu!!!! I am not joking by the way.

I don't know what is it that I lost Zan.

Actually you inspired me the other day Zan, when we were talking about movies, that after all the fighting and name calling, we were able to have a decent friendly exchanges on something that we both enjoyed, so why can't the same apply to the Cyprus Problem...you deserve some credit.

As for your challenge for me to come up with a working plan for Cyprus, I will try only if you want a system that is Truly Democratic, Non Racist, and Guarantees Human Rights to all Cypriots under one Government without hidden agendas to Partition the island, otherwise I'll be wasting my time.