Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

NoooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I JUST WROTE SO MUCH AND THEN LOST IT COZ I CLICKED ''DELETE'' AND IT WENT BACK A PAGE!!

Pyro I will get back to you tomorrow gardash, I have just looked at halils posts but cant find anyone from that village mentioned in there?!?! Any chance you can point it out to me?

Kikapu hope you dont mind but I shall also get back to you tomorrow mate, Ive just lost a whole page of writing!!!

[Kikapu]

NoooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I JUST WROTE SO MUCH AND THEN LOST IT COZ I CLICKED ''DELETE'' AND IT WENT BACK A PAGE!!

Pyro I will get back to you tomorrow gardash, I have just looked at halils posts but cant find anyone from that village mentioned in there?!?! Any chance you can point it out to me?

Kikapu hope you dont mind but I shall also get back to you tomorrow mate, Ive just lost a whole page of writing!!!

I know the feeling T_C. I used to have the same problem with my PC for a while couple of months back, but it seems to have cleared up. The whole PC would shut down all by it self, when pressed one of the keys on the key board, then everything would get lost.

I also read something resembling your Aunt's story in Limassol from Halil's letters by the TC's in 1974. I'll try to find it for you also, unless Pyro beats me to it first.

[T_C]

OK I found the story with the village but its not my aunt and it doesnt say anything about settlers blaming them either so if I missed it show me when you're back.

My aunt did say that some woman came over to her house and recorded her speaking for hours, and also took those letters I posted above for a book she was writing...wondering now if it was for what Halil posted

[T_C]

NoooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I JUST WROTE SO MUCH AND THEN LOST IT COZ I CLICKED ''DELETE'' AND IT WENT BACK A PAGE!!

Pyro I will get back to you tomorrow gardash, I have just looked at halils posts but cant find anyone from that village mentioned in there?!?! Any chance you can point it out to me?

Kikapu hope you dont mind but I shall also get back to you tomorrow mate, Ive just lost a whole page of writing!!!

I know the feeling T_C. I used to have the same problem with my PC for a while couple of months back, but it seems to have cleared up. The whole PC would shut down all by it self, when pressed one of the keys on the key board, then everything would get lost.

I also read something resembling your Aunt's story in Limassol from Halil's letters by the TC's in 1974. I'll try to find it for you also, unless Pyro beats me to it first.

Please do Kikapu! I have to go out for a little while but ill be back soon...oh and those pictures I posted seem to be working now!!

[iceman]

My aunt did say that some woman came over to her house and recorded her speaking for hours, and also took those letters I posted above for a book she was writing...wondering now if it was for what Halil posted

The woman was Sevgül Uludağ....

http://www.bibliopolis.de/peleus31.html

[Kikapu]

Hi T_C,

These are the stories posted by Halil. One or two stories resemble your Aunts a little, I think.


http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#175058

[74LB]

My, there's been a lot of activity on this thread today - must be a public holiday for a lot of posters ?
Anyway, as is usual in most threads on the Cypprob, we are seeing the same arguments over and over again.

I quite agree with Birkibrisli when he says :

while we keep bickering on about who did what to whom,and who suffered more and longer, our beloved mother,Cyprus,is being pillaged bit by bit...

I don't understand any of the Greek expressions that were posted, so if they could be translated please (unless of course they are obscene, in which case I can maybe guess the drift ?)

Get Real in response to Pyrpolizer : 'Aise! An exartountan bou ton Pyro itan na mas kavaligepsoun boubano tsie na mas gamisoun tsiolas!'

DT rsponds with : 'epoushtepse tjai to poushtlikin'

Get Real, this time to Bananiot : 'Tora irtes bou esso sou!'

Then we get VP actually amazed that Pyrpolizer posted something that he couldn't believe, nor argue with (I can actually visualise him getting back off from the floor !!!)

You are welcome to stay in Cyprus as a minority, and we are ready to forgive you for the immerse suffering you have caused to us since the day you set your foot on our island. You as Cypriot citizens can be 100% equal to every other Cypriot and as a Turkish community you can maintain your different language, religion and everything else that you want. What you can not do is to forcefully erase the history of our island just because you don't like it, and try to Turkify part of it by means of murder and ethnic cleansing. If you do that, then we will treat you as an enemy, and your destiny will be the same as the one of all the other foreign invadors that ruled our island against our will.

You know damn well that under the circumstances the vast majority of TCs will not trust to put their fates as a "minority" in our hands. I have personally saw the violent character and brutal face of the GC fanatics in the 60s and I tell you I was scared of them. Imagine a TC who did not just "see" those people.

The solution will be some sort of Federation or back to 1960 constitution BUT in both cases the TCs will administer themselves. Slowly slowly they will come to see the majority of us are not different than them, and are good people. The same will happen to us who think the Turks are nothing but "attilas" who did all those terrible things to us in 1974.

Please do not scare the TCs with what you know is their deepest fear.

Are you well?? have you bumped your head on something? real turn up for the books or are you just taking the piss?

The following raised a few eybrows from Get Real as it looks like he thinks a war will settle this once and for all :

The Turkish Cypriot community must confront the reality of life and that is that...

1. They are a minority period!
2. Turkey is here illegally period!
3. The "TRNC" was, is, and will always be illegal, period!

There's nothing debatable here.

What is debatable though is your attitude and your approach to the whole problem,GR....Your "bull-in -the-china shop" approach will get you absolutely nowhere. It will only push the already apprehensive TCs more into Turkey's arms...I am surprised that you cannot see that.

After three whole decades of literally getting fucked around by both Turkey and the TC's I'm convinced that what Cyprus now really needs is a military strongman to explore technological military options with a five year plan to devastate Turkey once and for all.

There's a time to negotiate and there's a time to fight and I honestly feel that the negotiating phase has long expired.

In between, I have read some sensible posts, and a lot of the usual repetitions.

I actually started this thread because of the article from the AsianTribune which gave me a hint that perhaps recognition for the TRNC is not far off.
But my real question is this " is anything currently happening in Cyprus that will give people hope that a solution is being sought ? Or are we waiting for permanent partition to follow on from the recognition of the TRNC ?"

Or is this just going to go on and on and on and on and on.............

[Murataga]

In 1964 you violated the other community`s rightful existense as an equal and seperate political entitiy in the name of handing over Cyprus to Greece.

While at the same time you violated the same things in the name of handling half of Cyprus to Turkey as it proved from the maps and classified documents found at the TC minister of Agriculture office.

It was the GC administration that made their policy to annex Cyprus to Greece first and stuck by this at all times which in return gave the most inalienable right to the TCs to resist. Outnumbered 1 to 4, and constantly living under this threat, it was the TCs` right to defend themselves. Proceeding events and the actions of the GCs have shown how justified the TCs were for being concerned regarding the GC aggression. Do not compare or confuse the aggression of one side with the defense of the other. When you try to hit a person and he covers himself, you can not say that “the two are in a conflict and or the victim had plans to fight all along”. The fact that EOKA was established (to terminate anything that stood in the way of ENOSIS) before TMT (first 1955, latter 1958) is in itself the most revealing evidence alone that you wanted ENOSIS first and we, as a reaction afterwards, resisted. Your attempts in trying put the TC victim with the GC aggressor in the same category will just not do here.

In the name of this lunatic crusade TCs were attacked, murdered, ejected from the government, enclaved and ambargoed.

In the name of this lunatic cause for Taksim, you were the very first to start the biccomunal bloodshed from as early as 1958 when you slaughtered GCs at Kontemenos village.You abandoned the Government and you created a state within a state by forming enclaves and pushing your people in. The very first enclave the Kionelli enclave was prepared by Kutchuk from day one that the Republic was born by purchasing massively land north of Nicosia upto kionelli, using the money he got from the British in settlement of TC properties in Famagusta. The state within a state situation that your leadership planned had catastrophic effects on your own community. The first you helped your taksimists in pushing your people in enclaves were the GC fanatics.

Firstly, let’s get one thing straight: the first political murder was carried out by EOKA against a Turkish Cypriot on 21 June 1955. Additionally EOKA attacked Turkish police and auxiliaries in 1957. Of course these do not justify the killing of any innocent GC and do not matter as far as I am concerned. Secondly, Partition is not our goal; however we can not and will not yield on our right to independence and to decide our future for ourselves in the absence of agreement on the establishment of a federal state with principles based on bi-communality, bi-zonality and the political equality of the two communities. We do not want partition but we will not allow your intervention to our autonomy in Cyprus either. We were ejected from the government through force of arms for refusing to give up our rights. This is not a matter of debate, it is a fact of Cyprus. The TCs were muscled out of the government. It is a well-documented fact that the Greek Cypriot leaders refused to take back TC civil servants or pay their salaries and other dues on the ground that all these matters would be a part of a political settlement (see the U.N. Secretary General`s report no. S/5950, 10 September 1964, para. 108 where this is explicitly stated). Just as you do today the GC leaders callously described the flight of the TCs`s to safety as an organized exodus to partition the island. This was than and still is today a lie which was exposed as such by the U.N. Security General`s report S/8286 of 8 December 1967 stating specifically:

“126. When the disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued in the first part of 1964, thousands of Turkish Cypriots fled from their homes, taking with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in what they considered to be safer Turkish Cypriot villages and areas. The refusal of the Greek Cypriot authorities to allow the Turkish Cypriot refugees to return to their homes in conditions of safety, effectively frustrated persistent Turkish efforts to rehabilitate them. They also obstructed attempts to improve their living conditions.”

Additionally, the UN Secretary-Generals report dated 10 September 1964 on the events of 1963 (S/5950) stated specifically that:
“189. …a variety of restrictions have been imposed upon the Turkish Cypriots. The isolation of the Turkish Cypriot Community, due to the restrictions placed on their movement on the roads, brought hardship on the members of the community aswell as serious disruption of their economic activities…

190. In addition to losses incurred in agriculture and in industry during the first part of the year, the Turkish Community had lost other sources of its income including the salaries of over 4000 persons who were employed by the Cyprus Government and by public and private concerns located in the Greek Cypriot zones. The trade of the Turkish Community had considerably declined during the period, due to the existing situation, and unemployment reached a very high level as approximately 25000 Turkish Cypriots had become refugees.”

As a very smart Greek in the name of Plato once said: “Even God can not change the past”. I suggest that you do not try to make an attempt at it. This past is recorded in the household of every TC in the form of tremendous suffering and pain and no amount of perversion or manipulation on anyone`s part will change this.

Thirdly, you accuse Kuchuk of purchasing land for enclaves. Even if it is true, I wonder when and why he did it… Do you think it was after Archbishop Makarios` first executive action which was to appoint Polycarpos Yorgadjis, a notorious EOKA killer with a pathological hatred for Turks, as Minister of Interior. Or was it after he mentioned (as the President of the RoC) to the local Greek press on 28 July 1960 that “The Agreements do not form the goal, they are the present and not the future. The Greek Cypriot people will continue their national cause and shape their future in accordance with their will. The Zurich and London Agreements have a number of positive elements but also negative ones, and the Greeks will work to take advantage of the positive elements and get rid of the negative ones.” How about after his public declaration (as the President of the RoC) on 5 January 1962 where he said: “The noble struggles of the people never come to an end. These struggles, although they undergo transformation, are never terminated. The struggle of the people of Cyprus, too, will go on. The Zurich and London Agreements form a landmark in the course of this struggle, but, at the same time are a starting-point and bastion for further struggles, with the object of capitalizing on what has been achieved for further conquests.” Or maybe after the course of a sermon at Kykko Monastery on 15 August 1962 where he said (as the President of the RoC): “Greek Cypriots must continue to march forward to complete the work began by the EOKA heroes. The struggle is continuing in a new form, and will go on until we achieve our goal.” Or perhaps after, his speech to the correspondent of Uusi Solomi of Stockholm on 5 September 1963 (as the President of the RoC) (approximately 3 months before Makarios`s confrontation of the TCs with his 13 amendments) where he said: “It is true that the goal of our struggle is to annex Cyprus to Greece”. How about after his public address in 4 September 1963 where he stated (this is one of my favourites(!)): “ Unless this small Turkish Community forming a part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA can never be considered terminated. Either whole of Cyprus is to be terminated with Greece or it will become a Holocaust” One wonders… Outnumbered 1 to 4 against a community and a president that openly declares ENOSIS their official policy, you dare to manipulate on our need for protecting ourselves from becoming subjects of Greece?

You have been given a good lesson that you can not and will not achieve ENOSIS; you learned your lesson (unfortunately the hard way) and now you can not even dare to talk about ENOSIS. Lesson number two is that you will not be allowed to Hellenize Cyprus. Hope you are fast learners

You were given a lesson that you cannot take part of Cyprus and walk away with your taksim dreams, and you are paying the consequences for 30+ years.

Consider all the above complimentary (not invalidating) your arguments. Hope my reply helps you get off the blinkers you are wearing and see the whole picture around you.

I am sorry but those are not the lessons we learned since what you mention does not even remotely resemble the outcome. What we have learned is that the GC administration can never be trusted (was in the venture of ENOSIS than; is in the venture of Hellenizing Cyprus now) and only solution that can be foreseen is a one that is a bi-communal, bi-zonal partnership with two communities of equal political status.


You also mentioned:

Yes we lost our homes and lands but at least we recovered and made up. When are you going to recover and how will you ever make up? Lesson number two is already been taught to you by settlers. Hope you don’t learn your third lesson somewhere in New Turkish Cyprus neighbourhood somewhere in England.

Of course you made up. What you stole is recognition, what you stole is state, what you stole is political representation and all the financial and political benefits that go along with it, and you stole it 44 years ago. As far as we are concerned: we are 300000 people with a GDP of approximately 10000$ (above Romania and Bulgaria that just made the EU) in alliance with one of the major powerhouses of this part of the world. We have secured a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation with equal political status for the solution of the Cyprus problem from the U.N. and the EU. which stands as a stone wall in the way of ENOSIS and Hellenization of Cyprus and was something that would be a matter of entertainment even to mention back in the day. We will even do a lot better when you return and compensate what you stole and used against us for 44 years.

[T_C]

In my opinion we're not just heading for partition, we're already there and have been for a long time....It was all over a long time ago if you ask me..Even the forum alone is testament to this.

We can barely agree on anything and even when we do it comes as great suprise and everyones shocked that we actually agree!

Thats just not normal!!

[zan]

You know damn well that under the circumstances the vast majority of TCs will not trust to put their fates as a "minority" in our hands.

Pyrpolizer, the vast majority of TCs will accept nothing less than partition anyways. This means there can never be an agreed solution for unification. As long as they have the power they will force what they want, partition.

Unification will happen only if it is enforced against the will of Turks and the majority of TCs. Sad but true.

I would understand your argument if by making a few compromises on some of our rights an agreed solution could be found. However it is very clear that such thing can not happen. Turks and TCs will accept nothing short of partition. Therefore do not denounce our rights for nothing.

That is a very sad conclusion you have come to,dear Piratis....
While I fully understand your frustration and apprehension,sanity dictates that we should never even think about resorting to force to achieve unification...Pyros is right I am afraid....It is softly softly or nothing...
My advice is not to put too much trust in the EU's powers of forcing Turkey to do anything....And if you are thinking about an armed struggle against Turkey,you might as well go and jump off some cliff right now.Cypriots have suffered enough from trying to impose their will on each other...It is time to start building bridges at all cost...And convincing people it is safe to walk across them...

So what is your analasis for his mental state Dr Bir?????