Cyprus-Forum.com

[joe]

Turkey's self-inflicted wounds
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=17773

As the debate over Turkey's EU membership looks set to intensify, it would be in Turkey's best interest to come to terms with its Ottoman past and rethink its sentiments of cultural exclusivity.


Commentary by P R Kumaraswamy for ISN Security Watch (21/06/07)

If there were any lingering doubts about where the Turkey-EU debate is headed, the newly elected French President Nicolas Sarkozy has settled them emphatically. In a powerful statement to the Lebanese Armenian Orthodox church, he declared: "I believe the recognition of the genocide by Turkey is a moral responsibility. You can be certain that I will continue to speak out and work on this issue with full commitment."

Since the election of the conservative leader, there have been signs that the continental debate over Turkey's EU membership is set to intensify, with many trying to delay, and if possible deny, Ankara's European dreams.

Ankara's problem is not that Turkey is almost exclusively Muslim while most of the EU-member states are predominantly Christian. The problem is much larger.

The EU is based on the premise that member states are culturally diverse and that the rights of various ethnic and cultural groups are respected and guaranteed, both in law and in practice. The national identity of these countries is not exclusive but allows various religious as well as ethnic groups to maintain their individual space.

Turkey on the contrary, still clings on the notion that it is an exclusively Turkish nation, and it is not ready to accept and recognize the non-Turkish component of its population. Nor is it ready to come to terms with its historic treatment of the non-Turkish populations in the area.

The preamble of the Turkish Constitution talks of "the eternal existence of the Turkish nation and motherland." The expression "Turkish nation" appears frequently in the Constitution. Ever since Kemal Ataturk founded the republic in 1923, this "Turkification" has been its hallmark. This exclusive Turkish identity does not reflect the cultural aspirations of the Kurds who constitute about one-sixth of the population.

Since the days of Ataturk, Kurds were banned from using their native language, proscribed from giving Kurdish names to their children and denied any space or tolerance for their culture. The limited concessions towards the Kurds in recent years were primarily the result of repeated pressure from the EU. But Turkey is still long way from coming up with an identity that is not exclusively Turkish.

The same problem of cultural exclusively inhibits Turkey from coming to terms with its Armenian past. During 1915-1917, right in the middle of the World War I, an estimated 1.5 million Armenians was killed by Ottoman Turks, who sought to reform the decaying empire.

It was one of the darkest phases in Turkey's history. As with many other countries facing similar historical circumstances, Ankara sticks to the sanitized version and even nine decades later, any suggestions of an Armenian "massacre" generate anger, revulsion and even prosecution as "insulting Turkishness" is a crime.

As Germany has attempted to atone for its Nazi past, it is natural for Europe to expect Turkey to do the same.

The third aspect of Turkey's reluctance to face its cultural exclusivist approach is the treatment meted out to the Christians of Cyprus. For the Christians, the first "special mission" that Christ entrusted to his disciples Paul and Barnabas was to the Island of Cyprus. At the time of the Turkish invasion of the island, about 200,000 Greek Orthodox Christians living in the north were forced to flee to south. According to Vatican watcher Sandro Magister, "At the village of Peristerona, on the road to Famagosta, the medieval monastery of Saint Anastasia is being used as a stable, with the cows chewing their cud amid what remains of the ancient cells. The tombs of the cemetery have been profaned, and the gravestones broken."

If Turkey is to be taken seriously by the EU, especially by societies that have been liberal vis-à-vis their minorities, then it will have to come to terms with its past.

Sarkozy has had the first salvo. Now it is up to Turkey to take an honest look at itself and its past in order to prepare itself for EU membership, which could surely be a positive move.

[humanist]

Turkey on the contrary, still clings on the notion that it is an exclusively Turkish nation, and it is not ready to accept and recognize the non-Turkish component of its population. Nor is it ready to come to terms with its historic treatment of the non-Turkish populations in the area.

And the RoC continues to hold the notion that it is exclussively Greek speaking with strong ties hellenism, which I believe excldue those Cypriots of non- Greek speaking backgrounds.

The RoC needs to re-think its openess and acceptance of other groups.

* Abolish anthem and start fresh
* No Greek flags to be flown on public buildings including churches
* Recognition of Turkish Language as one of the formal languages of Cyprus and Turksih language to be tought in evry public school in the country
* Turkish Cypriots to be encouraged to fill the posts as per 1960's constitution to represent those Turkish speaking Cypriots residing in the south and only those residing in the south with an allegiance to the government, (this might actually enable those Cypriots currently living in the north from moving to the south to claim their properties).


just some suggestions

[Strahd]

Turkey on the contrary, still clings on the notion that it is an exclusively Turkish nation, and it is not ready to accept and recognize the non-Turkish component of its population. Nor is it ready to come to terms with its historic treatment of the non-Turkish populations in the area.

And the RoC continues to hold the notion that it is exclussively Greek speaking with strong ties hellenism, which I believe excldue those Cypriots of non- Greek speaking backgrounds.

The RoC needs to re-think its openess and acceptance of other groups.

* Abolish anthem and start fresh
* No Greek flags to be flown on public buildings including churches
* Recognition of Turkish Language as one of the formal languages of Cyprus and Turksih language to be tought in evry public school in the country
* Turkish Cypriots to be encouraged to fill the posts as per 1960's constitution to represent those Turkish speaking Cypriots residing in the south and only those residing in the south with an allegiance to the government, (this might actually enable those Cypriots currently living in the north from moving to the south to claim their properties).


just some suggestions

***BULLSHIT***

That is all you people are wrong!

EU is about respecting the cultural identity of all its citizens.
-Greek Cypriots should remain Greek as we are preserving a very important part of Hellenic culture
-No Greek flags are flown on any RoC public buildings-Schools and Churches are community run buildings and hold the constitutional right to fly the Greek flag
-Turkish is an official language of the RoC and if you want your children to learn it you can take them to public schools where they offer it.
-If any TC wants to come to fill these positions they are there empty waiting for him. However he should recognise first the crimes of Turkey against his country!

[zan]

Turkey on the contrary, still clings on the notion that it is an exclusively Turkish nation, and it is not ready to accept and recognize the non-Turkish component of its population. Nor is it ready to come to terms with its historic treatment of the non-Turkish populations in the area.

And the RoC continues to hold the notion that it is exclussively Greek speaking with strong ties hellenism, which I believe excldue those Cypriots of non- Greek speaking backgrounds.

The RoC needs to re-think its openess and acceptance of other groups.

* Abolish anthem and start fresh
* No Greek flags to be flown on public buildings including churches
* Recognition of Turkish Language as one of the formal languages of Cyprus and Turksih language to be tought in evry public school in the country
* Turkish Cypriots to be encouraged to fill the posts as per 1960's constitution to represent those Turkish speaking Cypriots residing in the south and only those residing in the south with an allegiance to the government, (this might actually enable those Cypriots currently living in the north from moving to the south to claim their properties).


just some suggestions

***BULLSHIT***

That is all you people are wrong!

EU is about respecting the cultural identity of all its citizens.
-Greek Cypriots should remain Greek as we are preserving a very important part of Hellenic culture
-No Greek flags are flown on any RoC public buildings-Schools and Churches are community run buildings and hold the constitutional right to fly the Greek flag
-Turkish is an official language of the RoC and if you want your children to learn it you can take them to public schools where they offer it.
-If any TC wants to come to fill these positions they are there empty waiting for him. However he should recognise first the crimes of Turkey against his country!

Thanks again Sotos for telloin g it like it is and showing us what the real aspirations of the GCs are in Cyprus. A Greek run and Greek administered island. Well, you have got it and it can stay in the south!!!

[Simon]

Complete garbage as per usual Zan. All of what Strahd has said is spot on, and nothing in it suggests that he wants an exclusive Greek run and administered state.

P.S. Not sure where you got Sotos from.

[zan]

Complete garbage as per usual Zan. All of what Strahd has said is spot on, and nothing in it suggests that he wants an exclusive Greek run and administered state.

P.S. Not sure where you got Sotos from.

Sorry to both of them but I tried to make a quick post and cocked it up.

As for the rest you seem to see what you want to see. The "RoC" has been formed and what Strahd is saying is join it or else. We do not see the "RoC' as something we can just join.

[Simon]

Firstly, why? It protects TCs, Turkey is a guarantor under the Constitution which they are in continuous breach of, you have a veto, guaranteed number of seats in government, which outweighs your population percentage etc. Please do not say look what happened last time, as there is a completely different set of circumstances today. EOKA does not exist, Greece has no military junta, Cyprus is a member of the EU, the majority of GCs no longer desire enosis etc etc.

The RoC is the only legal government on the island; and while in practise it is currently under Greek Cypriot exclusive control, if the Constitution was from today observed by both sides, i.e. Turkish Cypriots re-joining the Government etc, there would be no Greek dominated state. Therefore, even if he is saying 'join it or else', he is still not saying that he wants an exclusive Greek run and administered state. In any event, I do not believe Strahd was saying 'join it or else' at all. He was responding to a specific number of points raised by Humanist, and nowhere in this particular post has he demanded that TCs re-join the RoC, 'or else'. (Not quite sure what you believe the 'or else' is).

[BirKibrisli]

Firstly, why? It protects TCs, Turkey is a guarantor under the Constitution which they are in continuous breach of, you have a veto, guaranteed number of seats in government, which outweighs your population percentage etc. Please do not say look what happened last time, as there is a completely different set of circumstances today. EOKA does not exist, Greece has no military junta, Cyprus is a member of the EU, the majority of GCs no longer desire enosis etc etc.

The RoC is the only legal government on the island; and while in practise it is currently under Greek Cypriot exclusive control, if the Constitution was from today observed by both sides, i.e. Turkish Cypriots re-joining the Government etc, there would be no Greek dominated state. Therefore, even if he is saying 'join it or else', he is still not saying that he wants an exclusive Greek run and administered state. In any event, I do not believe Strahd was saying 'join it or else' at all. He was responding to a specific number of points raised by Humanist, and nowhere in this particular post has he demanded that TCs re-join the RoC, 'or else'. (Not quite sure what you believe the 'or else' is).

Don't expect to get any sensible answer from Zan,Simon...
Zan has turned into His master's Voice....He wants to lock himself in a castle,protected by 40,000 troops,armed with 500 tanks,with the knowledge that the Turkish airforce is ony 7 minutes away,to feel safe and secure from the barbarians on the other side of the border who are just waiting (and have been for the past 33 years) to pounce on him and turn him into a religious and nationalist fanatic,and stop him from speaking his language and assimilate him into....hang on hang on...that is what his saviours want to do to him....sorry i got it all mixed up....

[zan]

Firstly, why? It protects TCs, Turkey is a guarantor under the Constitution which they are in continuous breach of, you have a veto, guaranteed number of seats in government, which outweighs your population percentage etc. Please do not say look what happened last time, as there is a completely different set of circumstances today. EOKA does not exist, Greece has no military junta, Cyprus is a member of the EU, the majority of GCs no longer desire enosis etc etc.

The RoC is the only legal government on the island; and while in practise it is currently under Greek Cypriot exclusive control, if the Constitution was from today observed by both sides, i.e. Turkish Cypriots re-joining the Government etc, there would be no Greek dominated state. Therefore, even if he is saying 'join it or else', he is still not saying that he wants an exclusive Greek run and administered state. In any event, I do not believe Strahd was saying 'join it or else' at all. He was responding to a specific number of points raised by Humanist, and nowhere in this particular post has he demanded that TCs re-join the RoC, 'or else'. (Not quite sure what you believe the 'or else' is).

Don't expect to get any sensible answer from Zan,Simon...
Zan has turned into His master's Voice....He wants to lock himself in a castle,protected by 40,000 troops,armed with 500 tanks,with the knowledge that the Turkish airforce is ony 7 minutes away,to feel safe and secure from the barbarians on the other side of the border who are just waiting (and have been for the past 33 years) to pounce on him and turn him into a religious and nationalist fanatic,and stop him from speaking his language and assimilate him into....hang on hang on...that is what his saviours want to do to him....sorry i got it all mixed up....

That’s fine by me Bir if this is the official line of attack now...Don't take them seriously! The point is that that is the way we have been treated by you and your friends for a long time now and it has not made a blind bit of difference. Simon is talking about the Zurich agreement but has not noticed that the "RoC" will not agree to even that. I am sure that the TRNC/KKTC will be more than willing to talk about those terms but the "RoC' is not and have shown that time and time again. Why are they not talking to our government. It is always a case of take the army out first and then we will talk....WHY? Is it because then the "RoC" will have to face up to their part in what happened and foot the bill for causing a war. You and people like Simon like to over simplify things in order to make the Turks and the TCs look like the bad ones in all of this but there is another story that is being ignored by you that will always be told. When you can face up to all the facts in this case and forgo the oversimplification of it then you might just start to make sense. Can either of you show me where the "RoC" have made serious attempts at restoring the Zurich agreement to its fullest extent without the changes that Makarios wanted to maker illegally.

[miltiades]

Firstly, why? It protects TCs, Turkey is a guarantor under the Constitution which they are in continuous breach of, you have a veto, guaranteed number of seats in government, which outweighs your population percentage etc. Please do not say look what happened last time, as there is a completely different set of circumstances today. EOKA does not exist, Greece has no military junta, Cyprus is a member of the EU, the majority of GCs no longer desire enosis etc etc.

The RoC is the only legal government on the island; and while in practise it is currently under Greek Cypriot exclusive control, if the Constitution was from today observed by both sides, i.e. Turkish Cypriots re-joining the Government etc, there would be no Greek dominated state. Therefore, even if he is saying 'join it or else', he is still not saying that he wants an exclusive Greek run and administered state. In any event, I do not believe Strahd was saying 'join it or else' at all. He was responding to a specific number of points raised by Humanist, and nowhere in this particular post has he demanded that TCs re-join the RoC, 'or else'. (Not quite sure what you believe the 'or else' is).

Don't expect to get any sensible answer from Zan,Simon...
Zan has turned into His master's Voice....He wants to lock himself in a castle,protected by 40,000 troops,armed with 500 tanks,with the knowledge that the Turkish airforce is ony 7 minutes away,to feel safe and secure from the barbarians on the other side of the border who are just waiting (and have been for the past 33 years) to pounce on him and turn him into a religious and nationalist fanatic,and stop him from speaking his language and assimilate him into....hang on hang on...that is what his saviours want to do to him....sorry i got it all mixed up....

That’s fine by me Bir if this is the official line of attack now...Don't take them seriously! The point is that that is the way we have been treated by you and your friends for a long time now and it has not made a blind bit of difference. Simon is talking about the Zurich agreement but has not noticed that the "RoC" will not agree to even that. I am sure that the TRNC/KKTC will be more than willing to talk about those terms but the "RoC' is not and have shown that time and time again. Why are they not talking to our government. It is always a case of take the army out first and then we will talk....WHY? Is it because then the "RoC" will have to face up to their part in what happened and foot the bill for causing a war. You and people like Simon like to over simplify things in order to make the Turks and the TCs look like the bad ones in all of this but there is another story that is being ignored by you that will always be told. When you can face up to all the facts in this case and forgo the oversimplification of it then you might just start to make sense. Can either of you show me where the "RoC" have made serious attempts at restoring the Zurich agreement to its fullest extent without the changes that Makarios wanted to maker illegally.

My dear Bir , you do not need me to say that living next to you would be just as normal as living next to my brother. I'm certain that you also share my sentiments and would have no hesitation in living next to me. It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of Cypriots share our views but unfortunately there no political leaders that would lead us to the promised land. We are living proof that two Cypriots who have never met or even spoken on the phone can so genuinely interact with each other in a cordial and civilized manner. We do not agree on many things I' m certain of that , but we respect each others views and would defend each others right to hold these views. We both agree that the majority of our people are peace loving , hard working family folks who became the victims of the fanatics amongst us , the fanatics who are intransigent and full oh hate and we have a few examples on this forum.