Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Bir wrote-

oh no....there is no contraditions in my thinking,Zan...I have been arguing the same points since I have joined this forum nearly 2 years ago...

Two posts made in the past without further comment:

(1)

I have said in the past that I think there is a very good case to bring a charge of treason against Tpapa for his role in undermining the Republic of Cyprus Constitution in 1963/64...He was a minister at the time sworn to upheld the Cyprus Constitution,and he was actively working to abolish it behind scenes...That is treason in anybody's language...

(2)

…but I know what I would say if I were Talat,"Mr president,I have just abolished the trnc,can I come and become your vice president in the long ago agreed Republic of Cyprus???"

I`ll let the people be the judge

Don't have nightmares Bir, the wind whistling through the broken windows of your glasshouse must be like a hurricane.

I feel I have to return the compliment as well. As a person that started out life in the middle ground and I have to say a bit of a hero of mine for that reason, you have moved so far left that a new chapter has to be opened to describe your position. You and Humanist with his racist statement that I cannot be bothered to find. A man that I defended as he was being attacked for being gay. He then repays the time and effort with a sweeping statement of racist that only the worst type of bigot can hold. You two have disappointed me the most.

You must have mistaken me with someone else,Zan...My position has never changed on the solution of the Cyprus problem....From the beginning I advocated Unification in a one State One nation solution...Over time I have realised how difficult it would be to get there,so I have accepted that we might have to have an interim solution,perhaps a close Federation of some kind,to help us along the way...I know that the words I put in Talat's mouth will never be uttered by him...His balls are firmly tied up and the string is held by Ankara....But if a TC leader would ever be bold enough to demand a return to the 1960 constitution and regain all their political power accordingly,Cyprus problem will be solved within months...
Because nobody can deny us our rights under the 1960 constitution...
So why don't our brave leaders do that,Zan????Because deep down there is only one solution they are allowed to wish for...yep....Partition...Ya Taksim Ya OLum remember....(Partition or Death)...well they achieved their first wish...Their second wish is only 25 years away....
I hope you enjoy your retirement in the Trnc,Zan...Surrounded by 40,000 Turkish soldiers,isolated and ostrocised from the civilised world,singing the Turkish national anthem and saluting the Turkish flag every morning...and uttering "Ne Mutlu Turkum Diyene" with a silly smile on your face...You have no right to accuse humanist or anyone with racism...
You have put your choice firmly on the side of racism and ethnic cleansing...You are the real disappointment in this forum...For you have stopped using your considerable intellect,and let pathological fear dictate your life...People in glass houses...

[Murataga]

Bir wrote-

oh no....there is no contraditions in my thinking,Zan...I have been arguing the same points since I have joined this forum nearly 2 years ago...

Two posts made in the past without further comment:

(1)

I have said in the past that I think there is a very good case to bring a charge of treason against Tpapa for his role in undermining the Republic of Cyprus Constitution in 1963/64...He was a minister at the time sworn to upheld the Cyprus Constitution,and he was actively working to abolish it behind scenes...That is treason in anybody's language...

(2)

…but I know what I would say if I were Talat,"Mr president,I have just abolished the trnc,can I come and become your vice president in the long ago agreed Republic of Cyprus???"

I`ll let the people be the judge

But where is the contradiction,Murataga????
I've always stood by my first statment,and I still do...
But since noone is rushing to bring charges of treason against Tpapa (I perhaps understand why the GCs won't ,but what about the TCs?????),and since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President...I am much more a realist than what some people like to give me credit for....

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime thus simultaneously and knowingly putting the fate of the TC community in the hands of this criminal. And the horrible justification you have for this is (with your very own words) :

since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President

From that standpoint, if you personally saw/believe a man raped a woman you would treat him innocent or would have no objection for this rapist to associate with the woman if some how the world officially recognized the rapist as innocent. I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir wrote-

oh no....there is no contraditions in my thinking,Zan...I have been arguing the same points since I have joined this forum nearly 2 years ago...

Two posts made in the past without further comment:

(1)

I have said in the past that I think there is a very good case to bring a charge of treason against Tpapa for his role in undermining the Republic of Cyprus Constitution in 1963/64...He was a minister at the time sworn to upheld the Cyprus Constitution,and he was actively working to abolish it behind scenes...That is treason in anybody's language...

(2)

…but I know what I would say if I were Talat,"Mr president,I have just abolished the trnc,can I come and become your vice president in the long ago agreed Republic of Cyprus???"

I`ll let the people be the judge

But where is the contradiction,Murataga????
I've always stood by my first statment,and I still do...
But since noone is rushing to bring charges of treason against Tpapa (I perhaps understand why the GCs won't ,but what about the TCs?????),and since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President...I am much more a realist than what some people like to give me credit for....

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime thus simultaneously and knowingly putting the fate of the TC community in the hands of this criminal. And the horrible justification you have for this is (with your very own words) :

since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President

From that standpoint, if you personally saw/believe a man raped a woman you would treat him innocent or would have no objection for this rapist to associate with the woman if some how the world officially recognized the rapist as innocent. I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

You got the wrong end of the stick,Murataga....
People are innocent until they are proven guilty...Just because I think Tpapa is guilty of treason that does not make him so until he is charged and tried and found guilty...Since nobody wants to prosecute him,I can only do the decent thing and assume he is innocent...So until he is proven guilty,and until he is dismissed by the majority of Cypriots,he is Mr President of the Republic of Cyprus...You know the one we walked away from and never demanded our rights back in all these years...

[Murataga]

Bir wrote-

oh no....there is no contraditions in my thinking,Zan...I have been arguing the same points since I have joined this forum nearly 2 years ago...

Two posts made in the past without further comment:

(1)

I have said in the past that I think there is a very good case to bring a charge of treason against Tpapa for his role in undermining the Republic of Cyprus Constitution in 1963/64...He was a minister at the time sworn to upheld the Cyprus Constitution,and he was actively working to abolish it behind scenes...That is treason in anybody's language...

(2)

…but I know what I would say if I were Talat,"Mr president,I have just abolished the trnc,can I come and become your vice president in the long ago agreed Republic of Cyprus???"

I`ll let the people be the judge

But where is the contradiction,Murataga????
I've always stood by my first statment,and I still do...
But since noone is rushing to bring charges of treason against Tpapa (I perhaps understand why the GCs won't ,but what about the TCs?????),and since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President...I am much more a realist than what some people like to give me credit for....

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime thus simultaneously and knowingly putting the fate of the TC community in the hands of this criminal. And the horrible justification you have for this is (with your very own words) :

since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President

From that standpoint, if you personally saw/believe a man raped a woman you would treat him innocent or would have no objection for this rapist to associate with the woman if some how the world officially recognized the rapist as innocent. I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

You got the wrong end of the stick,Murataga....
People are innocent until they are proven guilty...Just because I think Tpapa is guilty of treason that does not make him so until he is charged and tried and found guilty...Since nobody wants to prosecute him,I can only do the decent thing and assume he is innocent...So until he is proven guilty,and until he is dismissed by the majority of Cypriots,he is Mr President of the Republic of Cyprus...You know the one we walked away from and never demanded our rights back in all these years...

Quite rich when it is you talking about having a hold of the stick from the wrong end .

You are manupilating on the circumstances of the Cyprus conflict. What he is guilty of, who he will be prosecuted by and when is a complex matter given the vacuum of authority and the clear presence of the conflict in Cyprus, hence is totally beside the point at this time. What matters is that although you have confessed that you believe he violated the constitution ( primarily against the TCs in efforts to achieve ENOSIS ), you simultaneously/ironically have no problem believing in putting the fate of the TCs in his hand simply beacuse he wasn`t judged by the GCs (the ones in conflict with the TCs) and because the world recognizes him officially (for obvious political reasons). Like I said, I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

[cypezokyli]

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime

so you say it was wrong for us all these years to discuss with a criminal (Rauf )whose organisation was responsible for the murder of gc and tc alike ? !!!

[BirKibrisli]

Bir wrote-

oh no....there is no contraditions in my thinking,Zan...I have been arguing the same points since I have joined this forum nearly 2 years ago...

Two posts made in the past without further comment:

(1)

I have said in the past that I think there is a very good case to bring a charge of treason against Tpapa for his role in undermining the Republic of Cyprus Constitution in 1963/64...He was a minister at the time sworn to upheld the Cyprus Constitution,and he was actively working to abolish it behind scenes...That is treason in anybody's language...

(2)

…but I know what I would say if I were Talat,"Mr president,I have just abolished the trnc,can I come and become your vice president in the long ago agreed Republic of Cyprus???"

I`ll let the people be the judge

But where is the contradiction,Murataga????
I've always stood by my first statment,and I still do...
But since noone is rushing to bring charges of treason against Tpapa (I perhaps understand why the GCs won't ,but what about the TCs?????),and since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President...I am much more a realist than what some people like to give me credit for....

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime thus simultaneously and knowingly putting the fate of the TC community in the hands of this criminal. And the horrible justification you have for this is (with your very own words) :

since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President

From that standpoint, if you personally saw/believe a man raped a woman you would treat him innocent or would have no objection for this rapist to associate with the woman if some how the world officially recognized the rapist as innocent. I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

You got the wrong end of the stick,Murataga....
People are innocent until they are proven guilty...Just because I think Tpapa is guilty of treason that does not make him so until he is charged and tried and found guilty...Since nobody wants to prosecute him,I can only do the decent thing and assume he is innocent...So until he is proven guilty,and until he is dismissed by the majority of Cypriots,he is Mr President of the Republic of Cyprus...You know the one we walked away from and never demanded our rights back in all these years...

Quite rich when it is you talking about having a hold of the stick from the wrong end .

You are manupilating on the circumstances of the Cyprus conflict. What he is guilty of, who he will be prosecuted by and when is a complex matter given the vacuum of authority and the clear presence of the conflict in Cyprus, hence is totally beside the point at this time. What matters is that although you have confessed that you believe he violated the constitution ( primarily against the TCs in efforts to achieve ENOSIS ), you simultaneously/ironically have no problem believing in putting the fate of the TCs in his hand simply beacuse he wasn`t judged by the GCs (the ones in conflict with the TCs) and because the world recognizes him officially (for obvious political reasons). Like I said, I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

Stop pussyfooting around,Murataga and tell us what you think it is if it isn't "contradiction"?

I am not putting the fate of the TC in the hands of Tassos Papadopoulos of 1960-63,i am putting our fate into the 1960 constitution signed by 5 parties 3 of whom are guarantors in 2007,with the RoC in Europe,and Enosis dead and buried...You and the others' insistence that nothing has changed and time stood still since 1963/64 is becoming a laughing matter.
Everyone can see it is an excuse to prolong the status quo as long as possible...There is the karpaz region to pillage yet...why stop before the job is completed,huh Murataga????

[zan]

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime

so you say it was wrong for us all these years to discuss with a criminal (Rauf )whose organisation was responsible for the murder of gc and tc alike ? !!!

When you get rid of your leader then you can claim to be on an equal level.

[Murataga]

Bir wrote-

oh no....there is no contraditions in my thinking,Zan...I have been arguing the same points since I have joined this forum nearly 2 years ago...

Two posts made in the past without further comment:

(1)

I have said in the past that I think there is a very good case to bring a charge of treason against Tpapa for his role in undermining the Republic of Cyprus Constitution in 1963/64...He was a minister at the time sworn to upheld the Cyprus Constitution,and he was actively working to abolish it behind scenes...That is treason in anybody's language...

(2)

…but I know what I would say if I were Talat,"Mr president,I have just abolished the trnc,can I come and become your vice president in the long ago agreed Republic of Cyprus???"

I`ll let the people be the judge

But where is the contradiction,Murataga????
I've always stood by my first statment,and I still do...
But since noone is rushing to bring charges of treason against Tpapa (I perhaps understand why the GCs won't ,but what about the TCs?????),and since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President...I am much more a realist than what some people like to give me credit for....

That is exactly the contradiction that I am referring to. You accuse a man to be a criminal yet you have no problem to be legally working under him in the very business in which he carried out his crime thus simultaneously and knowingly putting the fate of the TC community in the hands of this criminal. And the horrible justification you have for this is (with your very own words) :

since he is the officially recognised legitimate President of RoC,I will call him Mr President

From that standpoint, if you personally saw/believe a man raped a woman you would treat him innocent or would have no objection for this rapist to associate with the woman if some how the world officially recognized the rapist as innocent. I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

You got the wrong end of the stick,Murataga....
People are innocent until they are proven guilty...Just because I think Tpapa is guilty of treason that does not make him so until he is charged and tried and found guilty...Since nobody wants to prosecute him,I can only do the decent thing and assume he is innocent...So until he is proven guilty,and until he is dismissed by the majority of Cypriots,he is Mr President of the Republic of Cyprus...You know the one we walked away from and never demanded our rights back in all these years...

Quite rich when it is you talking about having a hold of the stick from the wrong end .

You are manupilating on the circumstances of the Cyprus conflict. What he is guilty of, who he will be prosecuted by and when is a complex matter given the vacuum of authority and the clear presence of the conflict in Cyprus, hence is totally beside the point at this time. What matters is that although you have confessed that you believe he violated the constitution ( primarily against the TCs in efforts to achieve ENOSIS ), you simultaneously/ironically have no problem believing in putting the fate of the TCs in his hand simply beacuse he wasn`t judged by the GCs (the ones in conflict with the TCs) and because the world recognizes him officially (for obvious political reasons). Like I said, I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition.

Stop pussyfooting around,Murataga and tell us what you think it is if it isn't "contradiction"?

I am not putting the fate of the TC in the hands of Tassos Papadopoulos of 1960-63,i am putting our fate into the 1960 constitution signed by 5 parties 3 of whom are guarantors in 2007,with the RoC in Europe,and Enosis dead and buried...You and the others' insistence that nothing has changed and time stood still since 1963/64 is becoming a laughing matter.
Everyone can see it is an excuse to prolong the status quo as long as possible...There is the karpaz region to pillage yet...why stop before the job is completed,huh Murataga????

Now out of desperasion you are trying to discuss the Cyprus Problem?.. I am starting to like this even more I am not talking about the Cyprus Problem; can`t let you get off that easy. I am talking about you. Read it again :

Although you have confessed that you believe he (Tassos) violated the constitution ( primarily against the TCs in efforts to achieve ENOSIS ), you simultaneously/ironically have no problem believing in putting the fate of the TCs in his hand (as the president of the "RoC") simply because he wasn`t judged by the GCs (the ones in conflict with the TCs) and because the world recognizes him officially (for obvious political reasons).

Like I said, I`ll call this "contradiction" out of courtesy for now but everyone knows its true definition. And I`ll let you use your imagination in defining it for yourself.

[Pyrpolizer]

Although you have confessed that you believe he (Tassos) violated the constitution ( primarily against the TCs in efforts to achieve ENOSIS ), you simultaneously/ironically have no problem believing in putting the fate of the TCs in his hand (as the president of the "RoC") …..

The eternal Murataga with his faulty axioms and fallacious sophistries.

The fact is that if Birkibrislis wish comes true, he WILL NOT put the fate of the Tcs in Tpaps hands, he will put it in the hands of the TC Vice president. He will put it in the hands of the Council of Ministers which will consist of TC Ministers as well. The President of RoC has no excecutive power, he only presides the Council of Ministers. If the ministers (including TC Ministers) disagree the President can do nothing.

The structure of the RoC is such that legislative power comes from the Parliament. There will be(as there curently is) no Tpap in Parliament but will be so many TC MPs.
Furthermore the RoC addresses the people through the Government machine. The government machine will be such that the TCs will administer themself in clearly separate geographical area, but under the 1960 constitution.
Again the structure of RoC is that justice comes from a totally separate authority. Similar arrangements there too.No Tpap and no Tpaps authority there as well.

So if in fact Papadopoulos is guilty and if by return of the TCs back to the Republic he is re-elected (very doubtful-elections HAVE to be scheduled in such an event) then his authority and power is near ZERO and in no case the fate of TCs will be in his hands.
In short the RoC president is not an absolute Monarch

[Pyrpolizer]

Btw do you know that it is actually a paradox that the president of RoC negotiates the Cyprus problem himself? Do you know that if this matter is ever challenged at a court it will prove illegal? The president of Roc is elected by the GCs but his job is to protect the interests of both the GCs and TCs. Ever since Makarios times it was assumed that the president is serving the interests of GCs!!! This is wrong and unconstitutional.

Were are all those wise lawyers in Cyprus GCs/TCs alike to ever challenge this nonsense?

NO THE PRESIDENT OF RoC HAS NO AUTHORITY TO NEGOTIATE THE CYPROB ON BEHALF OF THE GCs.

There should have been separate elections among the GC people to nominate someone who would negotiate on their behalf!!!

NB.It is quite possible that we may end up one day with an Armenian or a Maronite President of RoC. Just imagine this person negotiating the Cyprus problem on behalf of the Gcs!!!!!! It's unconstitutional.