Cyprus-Forum.com

[magikthrill]

as an observer (okay i may be turkish but still)

t.c in this post say that TRNC does not claim to represent the whole island therefore it has no obligations for GCs.

on the other hand ROC claims to represent the whole island and claims to represent the TCs. however the way they operate unprove this. if ROC was operating like it should, there would be no problem today. (in the end it was formed together)

no. t.cs dont want both. what they want is: if you unite, they only want their powershare. if you dont want to unite, they are happy to continue with a free state of TRNC.

so to sum it up. a new United Cyprus or TRNC (or what the GCs say occupied north) is what the TCs want. Because there is no trust to ROC among the TCs anymore.

Am I right?

Efe,

this "United Cyprus" you talk about. Will it allow the return of all refugees to their original homes? Will it allow free movement within the island to all its citizens without limitations?

Um, If you answered no to any of the above questions, then TCs are dmeanding both their own territory and the ability to meddle in GCs affiars while at the same time get to enjoy lots of EU money.

You know come ot think of it, I wouldn't mind that either. Why did ANY TC at all vote against the Annan plan in the first place?

[efe]

this is the tricky part. ofcourse, it is a human right to return to your home. everyone ofcourse should have right to return to their homes. however, this conflict was not solved for a long time now, and things have moved on in both sides. therefore a transition time is required (i personally approved annan plan).

this will be a very simple answer, however, my opinion is everyone who lost a property in north or south should get their property back if appropriate. if not, they should be given an equivalent valued property in the administration they wish to live in.

i believe in annan plan, free movement withing the island was secured. however there was a transition period for the communities to adopt.

you can not say, "we are in EU, i can go to anywhere in EU but i cant go to north (buy property) freely" you have to realize there is a CONFLICT here. this is why i repeat on saying that a transition time is required.

as you can see, in the and I am saying YES to all of them. however, it is the right of TCs to enjoy the EU money. I didint like you sentence there. because you again, claim to represent them. and EU says the whole island of cyprus is in EU.

if TRNC was recognized, they I would say okay, TCs have no right to share the EU rights.



ANOTHER personal thought. If ROC was oeprating like it should today, and TCs had the administration power in the ROC. then I would actually accept the fact that TURKEY IS OCCUPYING north of this peaceful coexistance of Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

[metecyp]

Why did ANY TC at all vote against the Annan plan in the first place?

Everything is so simple for TCs in the Annan plan, isn't it? It's this lack of understanding for the other side's concerns that gets me. Did you know that 1/3 of TCs would be refugees again according to the Annan plan? Opps, I forgot. They're just thieves anyway, right?

[turkcyp]

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[magikthrill]

1/3 of TCs becoming refugee again is not enough for GCs. All of us has to become refugee one more time so they can have their sweet revenge, I guess.

That is why full unconditional absolut right of return all refugess will never be accepted. Any variation of Annan Plan, like the one Alex offeredcan be worked on to be accepted by two cummunities I guess.

Take care,

Yes thats exactly what I want. For all TCs to be refugees. And the again part?
Turkcyp, this is another example of you portraying TCs are the sole victim of the situation. As far as the refusal to allow all refugees to return look at my signature.

Everything is so simple for TCs in the Annan plan, isn't it? It's this lack of understanding for the other side's concerns that gets me. Did you know that 1/3 of TCs would be refugees again according to the Annan plan? Opps, I forgot. They're just thieves anyway, right?

You are not considered a refugee if you leave stolen property that you have been illegally occpying.

this is the tricky part. ofcourse, it is a human right to return to your home. everyone ofcourse should have right to return to their homes. however, this conflict was not solved for a long time now, and things have moved on in both sides. therefore a transition time is required (i personally approved annan plan).

this will be a very simple answer, however, my opinion is everyone who lost a property in north or south should get their property back if appropriate. if not, they should be given an equivalent valued property in the administration they wish to live in.

i believe in annan plan, free movement withing the island was secured. however there was a transition period for the communities to adopt.

you can not say, "we are in EU, i can go to anywhere in EU but i cant go to north (buy property) freely" you have to realize there is a CONFLICT here. this is why i repeat on saying that a transition time is required.

as you can see, in the and I am saying YES to all of them. however, it is the right of TCs to enjoy the EU money. I didint like you sentence there. because you again, claim to represent them. and EU says the whole island of cyprus is in EU.

if TRNC was recognized, they I would say okay, TCs have no right to share the EU rights.



ANOTHER personal thought. If ROC was oeprating like it should today, and TCs had the administration power in the ROC. then I would actually accept the fact that TURKEY IS OCCUPYING north of this peaceful coexistance of Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

Efe,

I liked your post very much. I respect the fact that you have an understanding and respect for human rights, unlike, say, turkcyp ( "full unconditional absolut right of return all refugess will never be accepted")

As for the transition period I completely understand and accept that. If all refugees have the right ot return. A potential solution:
1) all refugess are offered to return to their homes, certain ares within certain amount of time (but no later than 10 years).
2) refugees who do not wish to return can have the option of obtaining full compensatoin (either from Turkey or EU, preferably Turkey, since I, like other EU citizens, wouldn't want our tax dollars paying for Turkey's violation of int'l law.) GC administration can pay for the TCs homes if they do not wish to return to the south.

If this option was allowed, many GCs would prefer to be compensated and within 5 years this problem will most likely be solved.

[erolz]

Turkcyp, this is another example of you portraying TCs are the sole victim of the situation.

Well I saw it as an attempt to 'counter' the view that TC had nothing to lose in the annan plan, that they were required to make no sacrafices or compromises at all and all TC would only gain from a yes vote - which is a frequently posted opinion by some. I saw no attempt to portray TC as the sole victims of the Cyprus problem - but I guess we can all stare at the same thing and yet see something different.

Is the view that the Annan plan gave TC everything they wanted and GC nothing they wanted not a form of portraying the GC as 'sole victims' (or sole compromisers / payers etc) of such a plan?

You are not considered a refugee if you leave stolen property that you have been illegally occpying.

Not considered by others as a refugee maybe, but to a person who is forced to leave a place they consider their home, then to them there is little doubt about if they are a refugee or not.

I respect the fact that you have an understanding and respect for human rights, unlike, say, turkcyp ( "full unconditional absolut right of return all refugess will never be accepted")

So presumably you understand and respect the TC peoples human rights as a people to self determination (full, unconditional and absolute self determination). Their inalienable right to determine their own future in their own homeland? Or do you only understand and respect those rights that apply to indivduals but not those that apply to peoples?

If you insist that there can be no compromise on GC indivduals human rights to return do you also agree that there can be no compromise on the TC rights as a people to self determination and if so how do you propose squaring these conflicting 'absolutes'?

[magikthrill]

yes i respect TCs right to self-determination but as long as does not violate the human rights of GCs (like it is doing now)

[erolz]

yes i respect TCs right to self-determination but as long as does not violate the human rights of GCs (like it is doing now)

and if it (TC peoples right to self determination) does require some limit on GC absolute human rights what then? GC rights take precedence over TC peoples rights?

So how do you suggest this is achieved? You see no conflict in TC absolute right to self determination as a people and GC absolute right to return to their pre 74 properties?

Do you have any concrete proposals as to how both these objectives can be achieved? If you do I would love to hear them. With respect I suggest that if there was such a solution that allowed both sides their absolute rights without impacting the rights of the other - then the Cyprus issue would have been solved a long time ago.

For me there is clearly a conflict between these equal human rights and I see little prospect of a resolution to this that does not involve some compromise by both parties on their respective absolute rights. For my part I am more than willing to talk about limits on the TC peoples absolute right to self determination as part of a compromise. Are you willing to do the same? It would seem not from your sig and various comments to date.

[magikthrill]

erolz,

you make it sound like TCs should have their own country. However, this can not happen since they do not have their own homeland. They share it with a nother group, the GCs.

By creating a bizonal state with no limit to access, then that is fulfilling the TCs right to self determination and all refugees right to return.

[turkcyp]

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