Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

The 55 minute long “Vanished Bus” drama documentary, narrates the tragic story of 11 Turkish Cypriots who went missing in 1964 on their way to work when the bus carrying them went missing after leaving Larnaca.

In 1965 the Secretary-General of the UN summed up the official Turkish Cypriot policy with this paragraph:

"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (S/6426).

Those Turkish Cypriots that refused to participate in Ankara’s segregation schemes were branded “collaborators” and some even paid with their lives so I wouldn’t be surprised if these people on their way to work were “sorted out” by TMT like they had done to others.

Regards, GR.

[bigOz]

The Turkish Army will not leave till the safety of the TCs is guaranteed. Once thats done they are not needed.

The Turkish army protects Turkey's interests in Cyprus, not the TCs

I would be very interested in learning what those protected "interests" you refer to are alexiss. I asked this befoe to another but got no reply. Perhaps you could shed some light on what possible benefits Turkey would lose if Cyprus became a republic!

To be honest with you, the way I see it, Cyprus problem at the moment is of great financial and political burden on Turkey - so I am not really too sure about any benefits and such claims!

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I shall have to strongly agree with denizaksulu...

[alexISS]

The Turkish Army will not leave till the safety of the TCs is guaranteed. Once thats done they are not needed.

The Turkish army protects Turkey's interests in Cyprus, not the TCs

I would be very interested in learning what those protected "interests" you refer to are alexiss. I asked this befoe to another but got no reply. Perhaps you could shed some light on what possible benefits Turkey would lose if Cyprus became a republic!

To be honest with you, the way I see it, Cyprus problem at the moment is of great financial and political burden on Turkey - so I am not really too sure about any benefits and such claims!

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I shall have to strongly agree with denizaksulu...

Since Turkey is essentially governed by the military, it should be obvious that Turkey's interests in Cyprus are "militaristic". Apart from the obvious one, maximizing the territory under their control, the Turkish Generals consider a Greek-controlled Cyprus 40 km away from the Southeastern Turkish shores a great threat. And then, of course, the oil. When Cyprus announced its deals with oil companies and foreign governments on the exploitation of possible oil reserves, why was it Turkey and not the "trnc" that protested and declared that she would defend HER interests in the area?

If Cyprus is a burden to Turkey, then the same would be true for the eastern Turkish provinces where the population is Kurdish, why doesn't Turkey get rid of them and save tons of money?

[bigOz]

The Turkish Army will not leave till the safety of the TCs is guaranteed. Once thats done they are not needed.

The Turkish army protects Turkey's interests in Cyprus, not the TCs

I would be very interested in learning what those protected "interests" you refer to are alexiss. I asked this befoe to another but got no reply. Perhaps you could shed some light on what possible benefits Turkey would lose if Cyprus became a republic!

To be honest with you, the way I see it, Cyprus problem at the moment is of great financial and political burden on Turkey - so I am not really too sure about any benefits and such claims!

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I shall have to strongly agree with denizaksulu...

Since Turkey is essentially governed by the military, it should be obvious that Turkey's interests in Cyprus are "militaristic". Apart from the obvious one, maximizing the territory under their control, the Turkish Generals consider a Greek-controlled Cyprus 40 km away from the Southeastern Turkish shores a great threat. And then, of course, the oil. When Cyprus announced its deals with oil companies and foreign governments on the exploitation of possible oil reserves, why was it Turkey and not the "trnc" that protested and declared that she would defend HER interests in the area?

If Cyprus is a burden to Turkey, then the same would be true for the eastern Turkish provinces where the population is Kurdish, why doesn't Turkey get rid of them and save tons of money?

Turkey is not governed by military and besides the 74 million people living there, the rest of Europe agrees on that. So I will not accept your "opinion" on that as a fact!

Turkey has no "militaristic" advantages by her presence in Cyprus except protecting the lives of TCs. That is why she is in full agreement of a withdrawal ONCE A FEDERAL SOLUTION is agreed on! This Turkey had also accepted together with the original Annan plan.

Turkey has the right to search for oil in both the international waters and whatever part her recognised continental shelf allows her to. Their current objection is on of GC side having the right to sell drilling rights to others by being the sole owners of th awhile natural resources of Cyprus which is curently making negotiations that will propose or foresee the sharing of suh resources by both communities occupying and making up the population of the island.

Turkey does not get rid of its ethnic Kurdish population because they do not wish to go and for the same reasons UK or any other nation would not get rid of its trouble making ethnic memebers - citizens.

[DT.]

The Turkish Army will not leave till the safety of the TCs is guaranteed. Once thats done they are not needed.

The Turkish army protects Turkey's interests in Cyprus, not the TCs

I would be very interested in learning what those protected "interests" you refer to are alexiss. I asked this befoe to another but got no reply. Perhaps you could shed some light on what possible benefits Turkey would lose if Cyprus became a republic!

To be honest with you, the way I see it, Cyprus problem at the moment is of great financial and political burden on Turkey - so I am not really too sure about any benefits and such claims!

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I shall have to strongly agree with denizaksulu...

Since Turkey is essentially governed by the military, it should be obvious that Turkey's interests in Cyprus are "militaristic". Apart from the obvious one, maximizing the territory under their control, the Turkish Generals consider a Greek-controlled Cyprus 40 km away from the Southeastern Turkish shores a great threat. And then, of course, the oil. When Cyprus announced its deals with oil companies and foreign governments on the exploitation of possible oil reserves, why was it Turkey and not the "trnc" that protested and declared that she would defend HER interests in the area?

If Cyprus is a burden to Turkey, then the same would be true for the eastern Turkish provinces where the population is Kurdish, why doesn't Turkey get rid of them and save tons of money?

Turkey is not governed by military and besides the 74 million people living there, the rest of Europe agrees on that. So I will not accept your "opinion" on that as a fact!

Turkey has no "militaristic" advantages by her presence in Cyprus except protecting the lives of TCs. That is why she is in full agreement of a withdrawal ONCE A FEDERAL SOLUTION is agreed on! This Turkey had also accepted together with the original Annan plan.

Turkey has the right to search for oil in both the international waters and whatever part her recognised continental shelf allows her to. Their current objection is on of GC side having the right to sell drilling rights to others by being the sole owners of th awhile natural resources of Cyprus which is curently making negotiations that will propose or foresee the sharing of suh resources by both communities occupying and making up the population of the island.

Turkey does not get rid of its ethnic Kurdish population because they do not wish to go and for the same reasons UK or any other nation would not get rid of its trouble making ethnic memebers - citizens.

BigOz when a General of the army his national security council decide when a govt has gone far enough and that they need changing ...thats called being ruled by the military.

A democracy doesn't give the decision making of when a govt should step off power to the army.

[DT.]

regarding you other issue Turkey has never said it would withdraw its soldiers. Even in the Annan plan there Turkey managed to negotiate the presence of a number of turkish soldiers indefinitely.

Consider if Cyprus was unified with Greece what Turkey's ship lanes and coastal waters would look like. The country would be suffocated from the west and the south with Greek naval bases.

[alexISS]

Turkey is not governed by military and besides the 74 million people living there, the rest of Europe agrees on that. So I will not accept your "opinion" on that as a fact!

The European union has repeatedly expressed her concerns on the role of the military in the Turkish state, that doesn't seem to indicate that Europe considers Turkey very democratic.

Turkey has no "militaristic" advantages by her presence in Cyprus except protecting the lives of TCs.

Now that is your "opinion" which in turn I will not accept. The ruling Turkish generals have stressed many times that Turkey "cannot afford to lose Cyprus" and they were not talking about the TCs.

That is why she is in full agreement of a withdrawal ONCE A FEDERAL SOLUTION is agreed on! This Turkey had also accepted together with the original Annan plan.

The Turkish military strongly opposed the Annan plan, and chose to remain silent in the end only because its rejection by the GCs was certain

Turkey has the right to search for oil in both the international waters and whatever part her recognised continental shelf allows her to.

I know THAT is her right, but what Turkey (Turkey, NOT the "trnc") threatened to do was search for oil in waters included in the RoC continental shelf.

Their current objection is on of GC side having the right to sell drilling rights to others by being the sole owners of th awhile natural resources of Cyprus which is curently making negotiations that will propose or foresee the sharing of suh resources by both communities occupying and making up the population of the island.

The RoC acted according to international law. Turkey did not.

Turkey does not get rid of its ethnic Kurdish population because they do not wish to go and for the same reasons UK or any other nation would not get rid of its trouble making ethnic memebers - citizens.

I wasn't talking about getting rid of the Kurds, I was talking about getting rid of the kurdish provinces of Turkey. What are Turkey's interests there? Are there any? According to your logic there are none, since there are none in Cyprus, that's my point.

[bigOz]

regarding you other issue Turkey has never said it would withdraw its soldiers. Even in the Annan plan there Turkey managed to negotiate the presence of a number of turkish soldiers indefinitely.

Consider if Cyprus was unified with Greece what Turkey's ship lanes and coastal waters would look like. The country would be suffocated from the west and the south with Greek naval bases.

I am not so sure about being suffocated by Greek naval bases now - although I admit that would have been seen as a problem 25 - 30 years ago. Since there is no chance of a war flaring up between Greece and Turkey. I must insist that Turkey does not see Greece as a threat!

I have to disagree with you on the subject of Turkey being surrounded by Greek naval bases all the way to Cyprus, because you are basing your argument on the false premise that RoC will be a Greek island with a Greek naval base! Remember the question was about a united Republic of Cyprus being against the military interests of Turkey, hence their opposition to a solution. And no one can realistically justify such an argument to support that contention.

Turkey did not have to negotiate for it; the Annan plan "would have allowed both Greece and Turkey to maintain a permanent military presence on the island, albeit with large, phased reductions in troop numbers." (and not just Turkish troops)...

As for both DTs and alexiss comments about Turkey being ruled by generals - there seems to be a general misunderstanding of the unique position / responsibility Turkish military and its generals have in maintaining a secular predominantly Muslim country! I had already explained this fully in one of my early posts, but will do so briefly again.

Unlike its European counterparts, being a predominantly Muslim country, Turkish Republic, and its constitution is under constant potential danger of becoming an Islamic Republic with a changed constitution. In fact the only force that can stop it from turning into another Iran (which would definitely make it a lot more threatening and dangerous to Cyprus), is the Turkish military and its generals! Turkey currently is governed and ruled by a democratically elected government and its members. It is had achieved great economic and social developments over the past decade. Military does not interfere with the social, fiscal and international affairs of the government. Also as I quoted from the mouth of the Chief of Staff who made a statement last week to the Turkish Press, they are not thugs and cannot / will not get involved in any military action without any clear instructions from any presiding government.

Long gone the days when America and NATO forces instructed and/or supported coups in Greece, Turkey and many other nations across the world, because they felt the political views becoming popular in those areas, were threatening capitalism or free enterprise systems.

The unique position of Turkish army mentioned before allows them to interfere if there is a serious danger to the status of the republic and/or its constitution. Especially when the secular republic is in danger of turning into an Islamic one! This was exactly what was stated by the military during the confusion and people's fears/reaction to the recent presidential elections in Turkey. The generals simply assured that there was nothing to fear, because it was the duty of the Turkish Army to maintain a secular state and they would do so if necessary.

Of course Turkish haters and many anti-Turk flag wavers will take that as a sign of Turkish Generals ruling Turkey and will interpret it as such (and I am not necessarily referring to individuals in this forum - think of it as in a large scale such as in foreign media etc).

What is upsetting for me as a participant in this forum is the degree by which people's personal prejudiced political views and opinions make them blind to realities or rather what is good and what is bad for them!

alexiss! would you rather have as a neighbour in Cyprus (or in Greece for that matter) an Islamic Turkey run by fanatics similar to those in Iran or would you prefer the secular democratic one that exists now with the military keeping an eye on the republic so that it does not turn into an Islamic Republic?

Your dislike for Turks might demand that you wish the worst for Turkey and its people - hence criticising and even stopping the Turkish military from being the guardians of a secular republic might be fun - but I promise you it would be a disaster for Cyprus and all its people especially GCs - EU or no EU!

I've said enough, and I rather, a more learned GC will explain to you why governments need not necessarily disown parts of their country or change its borders because they are less productive than the other parts, and/or costing them money.