Cyprus-Forum.com

[EPSILON]

The simple truth is, no GC (not many anyway) at this time want to believe that TCs are not half as stupid as they think, and they have genuine concerns about any agreements with the Greek side, that supersede anything which may come from any leader in Turkey!

I guess for the sake of sanity, everyone should agree and say "yes Talat is told by Turkey and the army how TCs should negotiate and what to say". Furthermore, admit that all TCs who actually had lived / are living in Cyprus under current leadership and conditions are all half-wits, awaiting for Epsilon and the rest of the GC posters in this forum to tell them they do not exist, but are imaginary characters addressing the void!

How sad indeed!

Can you Sir in UK, be considered as citizen of the state unless you pay taxes, apply to state's authorities for official mdocuments (birth certificate, land certificate etc)? If not why this to apply in Cyprus. Are the TCs of a special kind of human beings? Can you consider a case a British citizen to copperate with Germans during WAR II? What would be his citizenship or rights result? Why Tcs to count differently ?
Is in Uk 1 person with a voting power of 4 other citizens? why Tcs to request such a right/ Are they a special kind of human beings?

Epsilon, first of all I reiterate that I am a born and bred Cypriot with a family tree going back few centuries. In other words I am not a British citizen at all.

TCs do have a special status in Cyprus as a direct result of what has been happening in Cyprus over the past 100 years. More so as a result of inter-communal fights and divorce over the past 50 years, that often made many think they were anything but "human beings". It is not as simple as likening it to UK and Germany or something else of no real relevance to current Cyprus issue.

You have to start thinking from a different angle, and view things through an independent perspective to start drawing any analogies with any other part of the world.

Whether people like it or not, irrespective of their ideals or political views, TCs exist! They have been existing on 1/3 of the island as an independent state, region, canton, republic whatever you wish to call them (again names are irrelevant) for the past 33 years IN PEACE! And their existence, political views and feelings must be taken into consideration when promoting any form of a settlement for the Republic of Cyprus that will accommodate all her citizens.

Now, please tell me what is not true in above statement and we may argue if it is relevant...

Your family goes back in Cyprus for centuries- I believe no more than 5 because otherwise you are a Greek!!!!!

Special circustances in Cyprus etc etc..: I agree , however same was in all countries Worldwide. Now we/you are saying that we are a civilised/ educated people/ recognising each other human rights etc etc, We are Europeans (We are - are you?) etc etc/ Why then a different state to be established in Cyprus than in Germany or UK. Do we are animals? We can not behave as communities as Germans or Britsh ?( We can-Can you?)

You can not!!!!!!!!1Because your future is not in your hands but in the invasion forces hands - States under control of military staff can not create a European society - can not create a human rights state.

[bigOz]

Epsilon!

You can not!!!!!!!!1Because your future is not in your hands but in the invasion forces hands

Says who? You still have not provided any evidence of any kind, to support your contention that TCs are ruled by the military and not the civilians they democratically elected! Until you do so what you say remains an "opinion" rather than a fact or reality!

[DT.]

Epsilon!

You can not!!!!!!!!1Because your future is not in your hands but in the invasion forces hands

Says who? You still have not provided any evidence of any kind, to support your contention that TCs are ruled by the military and not the civilians they democratically elected! Until you do so what you say remains an "opinion" rather than a fact or reality!

BigOz to be fair there's at least one editorial or article every week in mainland turkey complaining about livng in a democratic millitary state (the last quote i read from a journalist in a turkish paper last week)

I can start digging up fr proof but i'm a little busy now.

[DT.]

Epsilon!

You can not!!!!!!!!1Because your future is not in your hands but in the invasion forces hands

Says who? You still have not provided any evidence of any kind, to support your contention that TCs are ruled by the military and not the civilians they democratically elected! Until you do so what you say remains an "opinion" rather than a fact or reality!

BigOz to be fair there's at least one editorial or article every week in mainland turkey complaining about livng in a democratic millitary state (the last quote i read from a journalist in a turkish paper last week)

I can start digging up fr proof but i'm a little busy now.

off the top of my head the situation where talat had to go to turkey to seek permission from the generals there if he was going to dismantle the bridge on the river Kwai (ledras)

[bigOz]

Epsilon!

You can not!!!!!!!!1Because your future is not in your hands but in the invasion forces hands

Says who? You still have not provided any evidence of any kind, to support your contention that TCs are ruled by the military and not the civilians they democratically elected! Until you do so what you say remains an "opinion" rather than a fact or reality!

BigOz to be fair there's at least one editorial or article every week in mainland turkey complaining about livng in a democratic millitary state (the last quote i read from a journalist in a turkish paper last week)

I can start digging up fr proof but i'm a little busy now.

off the top of my head the situation where talat had to go to turkey to seek permission from the generals there if he was going to dismantle the bridge on the river Kwai (ledras)

I am not saying there are no Turks who have the same "opinions" as Epsilon has, and I also come across them in many editorials (proof that democracy in modern Turkey is starting to work) but opinions are not necessarily true or a proof! They are just editorials and opinions at the end of the day.

As for Talat, I am almost certain he was holding talks with Edogan's government and not the "Generals". If I am mistaken, I am open to further enlightment on that.

What is also often overlooked and never mentioned by people of such strong opinions is the presence of Greek mainland military and their expulsion from the South! Seeing they were the biggest influential force for the start of the events in 1974, why is no one campaigning for the end to their "occupation" of the South?

Below, please find the quote from UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee's Report, printed 18 April 2007 after their visits to Turkey and both sides of Cyprus:

Turkish Cypriots on the Cyprus problem
94. There is still a pro-solution leadership in northern Cyprus but their support should not be taken for granted. There are worrying trends as most Turkish Cypriots feel they have
not been rewarded for the ‘yes’ vote and that the EU has not delivered on its promises, particularly on direct trade. Turkish Cypriots feel sandwiched between the EU and Turkey and want to see early progress on the Cyprus problem using the United Nations, not the European Union. Turkish Cypriots want to make an honest living and develop their own economy, particularly in the area of tourism, rather than to rely on aid. They also want direct trade with the EU.

95. The two sides are at a stalemate. The Greek Cypriots are very comfortable with the status quo and have little incentive to move things along. This is unacceptable to the Turkish Cypriots, whose fate depends on a solution to the Cyprus problem. Recognition and full legitimacy as part of a unified state of Cyprus is their goal.

96. Holders of passports issued by the ‘TRNC’ may enter the US, UK, France Pakistan and a few other countries, but are otherwise severely restricted in where they can travel. Ending the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots would be an important step towards a comprehensive solution, but it is not an alternative to such a solution. It is nonetheless a very important issue in its own right. Ending isolation is not just about trade and direct flights, it is also about other issues such as sporting links, membership of international organisations, postal addresses and telephone codes. The ‘TRNC’ attaches importance to achieving Turkish Cypriot participation in the Bologna process.

97. President Papadopoulos has still not set out his demands. It is not clear to Turkish Cypriots what he wants, and therefore Turkish Cypriots say they do not know what they need to do in order to meet Greek Cypriot concerns. The ‘areas of concern’ presented by Papadopoulos to Sir Kieran Prendergast in 2004 were too broad and too vague. He needs
to be more specific.

98. Turkish Cypriots feel that the dynamic on the island is very negative. They do not think the Greek Cypriots really want a solution. It is therefore important for the international community to lift the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots, particularly through direct flights.

Turkish Cypriots feel they did the right thing in approving the Annan Plan, but they have not benefited. Turkish Cypriots are being blocked on trade to Europe, the Middle East and within the island. Only direct flights and trade will change Greek Cypriot attitudes. These issues have to be negotiated and discussed with the Turkish Cypriot community, not with
Turkey.

99. Turkish Cypriots would not feel comfortable about the possibility of UNFICYP withdrawal, because they do not trust the Greek Cypriots. Nonetheless, there is no recent history of violence on the Green Line. The Turkish army should continue to provide guarantees for the Turkish Cypriot community while both communities work towards an agreed settlement. Any permanent reduction in Turkish troop numbers should take place as part of an overall settlement of the Cyprus problem. The National Guard in the south includes a substantial mainland Greek component.

In all, 80,000 Greek Cypriots have weapons, and all men in the south receive military training. The Turkish army presence in Cyprus is seen by 90% of Turkish Cypriots as essential for their security. For the army to leave, other guarantees will have to be in place.

I hope the above addresses many of the issues we've been trying to communicate in this forum. It is independently carried out, and to me, it reflects the more realistic position relating to TCs.

[DT.]

Epsilon!

You can not!!!!!!!!1Because your future is not in your hands but in the invasion forces hands

Says who? You still have not provided any evidence of any kind, to support your contention that TCs are ruled by the military and not the civilians they democratically elected! Until you do so what you say remains an "opinion" rather than a fact or reality!

BigOz to be fair there's at least one editorial or article every week in mainland turkey complaining about livng in a democratic millitary state (the last quote i read from a journalist in a turkish paper last week)

I can start digging up fr proof but i'm a little busy now.

off the top of my head the situation where talat had to go to turkey to seek permission from the generals there if he was going to dismantle the bridge on the river Kwai (ledras)

I am not saying there are no Turks who have the same "opinions" as Epsilon has, and I also come across them in many editorials (proof that democracy in modern Turkey is starting to work) but opinions are not necessarily true or a proof! They are just editorials and opinions at the end of the day.

As for Talat, I am almost certain he was holding talks with Edogan's government and not the "Generals". If I am mistaken, I am open to further enlightment on that.

What is also often overlooked and never mentioned by people of such strong opinions is the presence of Greek mainland military and their expulsion from the South! Seeing they were the biggest influential force for the start of the events in 1974, why is no one campaigning for the end to their "occupation" of the South?

Below, please find the quote from UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee's Report, printed 18 April 2007 after their visits to Turkey and both sides of Cyprus:

Turkish Cypriots on the Cyprus problem
94. There is still a pro-solution leadership in northern Cyprus but their support should not be taken for granted. There are worrying trends as most Turkish Cypriots feel they have
not been rewarded for the ‘yes’ vote and that the EU has not delivered on its promises, particularly on direct trade. Turkish Cypriots feel sandwiched between the EU and Turkey and want to see early progress on the Cyprus problem using the United Nations, not the European Union. Turkish Cypriots want to make an honest living and develop their own economy, particularly in the area of tourism, rather than to rely on aid. They also want direct trade with the EU.

95. The two sides are at a stalemate. The Greek Cypriots are very comfortable with the status quo and have little incentive to move things along. This is unacceptable to the Turkish Cypriots, whose fate depends on a solution to the Cyprus problem. Recognition and full legitimacy as part of a unified state of Cyprus is their goal.

96. Holders of passports issued by the ‘TRNC’ may enter the US, UK, France Pakistan and a few other countries, but are otherwise severely restricted in where they can travel. Ending the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots would be an important step towards a comprehensive solution, but it is not an alternative to such a solution. It is nonetheless a very important issue in its own right. Ending isolation is not just about trade and direct flights, it is also about other issues such as sporting links, membership of international organisations, postal addresses and telephone codes. The ‘TRNC’ attaches importance to achieving Turkish Cypriot participation in the Bologna process.

97. President Papadopoulos has still not set out his demands. It is not clear to Turkish Cypriots what he wants, and therefore Turkish Cypriots say they do not know what they need to do in order to meet Greek Cypriot concerns. The ‘areas of concern’ presented by Papadopoulos to Sir Kieran Prendergast in 2004 were too broad and too vague. He needs
to be more specific.

98. Turkish Cypriots feel that the dynamic on the island is very negative. They do not think the Greek Cypriots really want a solution. It is therefore important for the international community to lift the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots, particularly through direct flights.

Turkish Cypriots feel they did the right thing in approving the Annan Plan, but they have not benefited. Turkish Cypriots are being blocked on trade to Europe, the Middle East and within the island. Only direct flights and trade will change Greek Cypriot attitudes. These issues have to be negotiated and discussed with the Turkish Cypriot community, not with
Turkey.

99. Turkish Cypriots would not feel comfortable about the possibility of UNFICYP withdrawal, because they do not trust the Greek Cypriots. Nonetheless, there is no recent history of violence on the Green Line. The Turkish army should continue to provide guarantees for the Turkish Cypriot community while both communities work towards an agreed settlement. Any permanent reduction in Turkish troop numbers should take place as part of an overall settlement of the Cyprus problem. The National Guard in the south includes a substantial mainland Greek component.

In all, 80,000 Greek Cypriots have weapons, and all men in the south receive military training. The Turkish army presence in Cyprus is seen by 90% of Turkish Cypriots as essential for their security. For the army to leave, other guarantees will have to be in place.

I hope the above addresses many of the issues we've been trying to communicate in this forum. It is independently carried out, and to me, it reflects the more realistic position relating to TCs.

a few more points from that same report BigOz. Think we should just post the whole thing and get it over with.

80. Turkey could withdraw thousands of troops without compromising the security of the Turkish Cypriots. But the Turkish military has a strong attachment to Cyprus. Withdrawal of Turkish forces is bound up with wider questions of reform of Turkish society and governance

90. Some Turkish Cypriots have sold Greek Cypriot land in the north to foreign investors. When Greek Cypriot refugees see this development of their land, they conclude that the Turkish Cypriots do not want a solution to the Cyprus dispute. It does not give a Greek Cypriot hope that one day he will be able to return to his house.

91. Greek Cypriots believe that the solution to the Cyprus problem is the reunification of the island; to have two separate communities is against the interest of the Cypriots. It is also anachronistic to have one of the smallest states in the EU divided into two. No solution would be without its problems but the new state should be flexible enough to absorb any shocks.

104. There are at least 200,000 permanent residents in northern Cyprus, of whom 50,000 are of Turkish mainland origin. Most of the latter are economic migrants from poor areas of Turkey. There are also about another 100,000 short-term residents, mostly from Turkey, but some from the UK. Many of these (30,000) are students; others are labourers, or families of the military stationed on the island. A census was recently held in the north, but it was not internationally supervised and at the time of the visit publication of the full results had been delayed.

[bigOz]

I have no problems with the rest, because they are also true reflection of the position in th eSouth and/or the feelings of the GCs on the issues. What I intended to address were Epsilon's claims/opinions about what or how the TCs in general feel - the points that were highlighted address these - yes?

The difference is I do not deny the rest by saying "it is mainland Greece forcing the GCs to say no" or "These are not what the majority of GCs say". Doing that would make me blind to the real issues and I would be in a state of denial...

[Viewpoint]

VP I accept your argument, I disagree and trust goes both ways and I personally do not agree with ending the isolation as this will eventually lead to division of the Isalnd. Personally and you may be aware from previous posts I do give a hoot about the land and my grandmother was made refugee upon Turkeys invasion of out Island, however land and freedom in Cyprus' situation are one in the same. That is the essence of the argument. I am happy to go with the staus quo. Occupation of the north of Cyprus and declaration as an independent republic and Isolation in every respect and refugees loosing out on their freedoms and choices. Or we could move beyond the 33 year staus quo to a solvable approach which would mean Unifying economic, educational health domains with a view of Unification. Unless you start lining us up and shooting 700 od thousand Greek speaking Cypriots today there will always be a greek speaking dominance on the Island. So if you feel that is the way to have equality start shootin now VP.

Minority populations in other nations have equal rights, it too can be achieved in Cyprus also. However, the fact that you mention that in your post indicates to me that the agenda for the Turkish speaking Cypriot is not one of Unification at all.

I wonder VP if there was an Island between Cyprus and Turkey and was offered to Turkish speaking Cypriots will they accept it and move it there? for ownership and independence.

So you obviously subscrible to the ideology that TCs should be held hostage so as to keep us wanting a solution, cant you see it has the opposite effect and causes a hardening of attitude towards uniting with GCs.

The dominance is our greatest fear, we are not like any other EU country due to our dark past therefore we will be exposed to the GCs administering democracy and human rights, its like giving your rapist the key to your bedroom door.

Is there such an island?maybe you would like to go there we will never leave North Cyprus its our home and we love it even with all its faults.

[DT.]

Turkish Cypriots feel they did the right thing in approving the Annan Plan, but they have not benefited. Turkish Cypriots are being blocked on trade to Europe, the Middle East and within the island. Only direct flights and trade will change Greek Cypriot attitudes. These issues have to be negotiated and discussed with the Turkish Cypriot community, not with
Turkey

for starters BigOz as its been said many times before on this forum direct trade and direct flights lead to recognition. The TC's will then be in danger of becoming what they accusse the GC's off which is complacency due to comfortable living.

anything that leads to recognition without a prior agreed settlement just isn't going to happen. It basically comes down to us legalising the occupation of land by turkish troops.
I'm sure that had you been in our position you would be doing the same.

[

b]Any permanent reduction in Turkish troop numbers should take place as part of an overall settlement of the Cyprus problem. The National Guard in the south includes a substantial mainland Greek component. [/b]

The keyword here is reduction. WHile TC's seek reduction in a settlement we seek disbanding of any troops (greek, turkish cypriot, british) from the island. The greek component is ELDYK which was is still the same number of soldiers that were quoted in the 1960 constitution. (think about 1200 someon correct me please)

The Turkish army presence in Cyprus is seen by 90% of Turkish Cypriots as essential for their security. For the army to leave, other guarantees will have to be in place.

What are these gaurantees with regards to TC's safety?

[Viewpoint]

miltiades

Should I encourage you Mr. VP to post some more obscenities , or shall cower with fear at the though of Mr Vulgar losing his cool and reverting to what he does best , lets try again Mr.Vulgar , You are a looser , You are not representative of the T/Cs , You are an opportunist hyena who emigrated to the occupied part of Cyprus scavenging for freebies , having got them , no one is going to take them away from you. Well listed dick head , the T/Cs are more my people than yours ,remember I have in my family strong connections with T/Cs so cut the crap out and stop pretending that your opinions are reflective of the T/Cs.

The true face of miltiades, this is what he means by love for his TC brothers.

Stop your verbal abuse and I will do the same continue and I will respond in the same vulgar tone again the choice is yours you moronic ape.[/quote]