Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

ALEX , I wonder what your views were on a part of the AP , which you have no doubt studied in order to consider it acceptable for the Cypriots ,
that part that dealt with police stations split 50 -50 and each allowed in the Plan to fly the Greek and Turkish flag respectively. How about the division of our roads with either side owning a specific road but with the other side having the right to construct a by- pass in order to get to a G/C or T/C destination. This from a Plan that was promoted as a unifying plan when it was nothing of the sort. Turkish troops , that are now considered Internationally to be occupying forces , were given a concrete legal status and the ultimate right to take it upon themselves without UN , EU or other directives , to interfere in any part of Cyprus that they saw fit. Thanks but no thanks. The plan was a Turkish designed and bore the hallmarks of a legal recognition of the de facto situation.
With hindsight we knew that we could not rely on any one to oppose Turkey should Turkey not willing to honour its part of the agreement.

I opposed the AP because it fell way way short of the ultimate dream that Cypriots have of a united Independent Cyprus, member of the EU .

You do not have to point the plan's shortcomings, I know there are many. I also know it was not a unification plan, but it was close. You cannot force true unification to people that do not want it and you cannot force people that want to unify to be separated. The Annan plan was the only one that had some chance for success and, if the people would feel comfortable enough after some time, its shortcomings could be amended. The Turkish troops would be gradually withdrawn and Turkey would have no say in the future of an EU country, no matter what.

I would like to ask this: Do you feel that, after the rejection of the plan, the future looks brighter for Cyprus? Because what I feel is that NOW Turkey has more chances for a de facto recognition of the "TRNC" than ever, the world does not see the Greek Cypriots as victims of an invasion anymore, but as spoilt rich people who do not want to share their wealth with their "isolated" Turkish countrymen

Let me vehemently disagree with your assertion that the "TRNC" is close now than ever before , in obtaining recognition . The International community will abide by the rule of law , the RoC is the only recognised government of Cyprus and sooner rather than later new efforts to unite our island will be actioned upon. The recognition that our T/Cs are isolated and not involved in the general prosperity of Cyprus is entirely acceptable by all . Cyprus is not just for today but it is for the future also and that is the reason why our prime considerations must be to remove any possibility of future conflict that would have been inevitable had the AP plan succeeded. For any solution to be successful and long lasting the majorities on both sides must feel comfortable with the contents.

The prime negatives in the Cyprob are the perceived "motherlands" without whom all Cypriots would soon begin the process of reconciliation. I have not met or even spoken on the phone to Bitkibrisly , have only spoken to Kikapu once on the phone , have met and spoken to mrfromng many times , all these three are T/Cs , but all three consider me one of them , a Cypriot , a G/C .

miltiades you all live abroad and are dilluted Cypriots who have no idea of living here day in day out..yet you know whats best for us better than the people that live here. You try to push us into a situation where you are comfortable with your 80% advantage. Are you willing to live in a TC state as you suggest we do in a GC state? Would you be OK with being the minority in a TC state? there are many Gcs who are vehemently against this a few of them on this forum. A level playing field is vital for the process to move forward, you will see this unfold in the coming years.

[miltiades]

VP at it again with more consistently written bullshit that does not make any sense .

""""I applaud your bravery for calling a spade a spade in the face of people who will always vehemently disagree when anything that does not fit in with their own ideology rears it head. Well done it gives me hope that others will also see the realities which face them everyday because there are so many people who continue to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to see where this issue is going, just like 1963 to 1974...the same stubborn, over confident and spoilt mentality prevails today."""
Listen genius , what does not fit with my ideology is for my nation to be taken over by f..ng foreigners Greeks like Alex and Turks like you . Get it in your thick head that this island is the island of the Cypriots not of dick heads like you born out of Cyprus and coming back to tell us that we are not Cypriots but no different to people of Spain , Malta , India and all the other nations that you said earlier that the Cypriots were to you. I suggest you study a little more and post a lot less cause you ain't making any bloody sense.

[Viewpoint]

I would like to ask this: Do you feel that, after the rejection of the plan, the future looks brighter for Cyprus?

Yes, the future looks brighter now, simply because little Cyprus that used to be the "klotsoskoufi" of the international community, with no real political leverage and power in the international affairs, and which no one thought of ever taking seriously -set aside deal with its problem in front of the Turkish political displacement due to size and US backing; is now a full time EU member with veto rights in its decision making process, equal to those that some of the words superpowers enjoy (UK, France and Germany,) and a country that inevitably at least the EU and its member states have to regard as their partner! In comparison to what we used to be before EU accession, in terms of international political displacement (i.e. a "klotsoskoufi,) with what we have politically become after EU accession, it is like the difference between the moon and the sun, or between day and night!

Because what I feel is that NOW Turkey has more chances for a de facto recognition of the "TRNC" than ever, the world does not see the Greek Cypriots as victims of an invasion anymore, but as spoilt rich people who do not want to share their wealth with their "isolated" Turkish countrymen

And what have we gained or achieved all these years that were seen as the victims of an invasion? Whatever we have gained all these 30 years that we were seen as the victims (i.e. nothing,) is exactly what the TCs will gain now for been seen as the victims (nothing!)

What have you gained in the past 3 years since entering the EU with regards to solving the Cyprus problem? are you any closer than you were 3 years ago?

While you maintain your arrogant and defiant stance towards a solution keep looking north and watching how things will unfold before you very eyes, you will end up begging for the AP to be brought back by which time it will be to late.

[Kifeas]

ofcource we did !!!
we gained our entrance to EU !!

Oh c'mon pezo! You can do better!
Have we gained our entrance to the EU because we were seen as the victims? This is a joke!
Our entrance to the EU we have gained it because on the one hand we had an economic and political stability record that was at par with the rest of the existing EU member states, and on the other hand because Greece had rightfully blackmailed the other EU member states not to reject Cyprus' accession on grounds relating to its political problem (i.e. the source of its victimization,) otherwise Greece would have blocked the entire enlargement process. Not only we did not get our entrance in the EU because we were seen as the victims of an invasion, but to the contrary, most EU countries were ready to use it as a reason not to accept our membership, i.e. they were opting for our double victimization!

moderation pays of, and it did pay of so long we used it.

So, what have we gained all these years that we were the "good boys" as you say? Have the Turks during all those 30 long years that we were the "good boys," been convinced to return back even one single square meter of our stolen lands? Have they been convinced to allow one single GC refugee to return? Have they been convinced to withdraw one single Turkish soldier? The answer is a big "No!" No matter how moderate and good boys we have shown the international community to have been, we have achieved a big nothing, outside some UN resolutions!

[Viewpoint]

VP at it again with more consistently written bullshit that does not make any sense .

""""I applaud your bravery for calling a spade a spade in the face of people who will always vehemently disagree when anything that does not fit in with their own ideology rears it head. Well done it gives me hope that others will also see the realities which face them everyday because there are so many people who continue to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to see where this issue is going, just like 1963 to 1974...the same stubborn, over confident and spoilt mentality prevails today."""
Listen genius , what does not fit with my ideology is for my nation to be taken over by f..ng foreigners Greeks like Alex and Turks like you . Get it in your thick head that this island is the island of the Cypriots not of dick heads like you born out of Cyprus and coming back to tell us that we are not Cypriots but no different to people of Spain , Malta , India and all the other nations that you said earlier that the Cypriots were to you. I suggest you study a little more and post a lot less cause you ain't making any bloody sense.

Whats with the attitude? why are you so rude together with the pack? Tone it down you "fucking bastard" is that what you want? I can use the same tone if thats where you want to take the level of this forum, keep up your verbal abuse and see how the forum deteriorates, I am warning you and people like and even admin that I have been civil in my posts and expect the same if this counts for nothing and posters are free to swear and hurl abuse I to can play that game just as good as anyone else.

I have returned to my country the TRNC, where are you? you are so "Cypriot" that you live in the UK and will rot there, good riddens, your thinking will only drag us TCs towards danger and a GC state run by Gcs for GCs and the TCs be just another minority, fucked by Gcs on daily basis.

[Kifeas]

I would like to ask this: Do you feel that, after the rejection of the plan, the future looks brighter for Cyprus?

Yes, the future looks brighter now, simply because little Cyprus that used to be the "klotsoskoufi" of the international community, with no real political leverage and power in the international affairs, and which no one thought of ever taking seriously -set aside deal with its problem in front of the Turkish political displacement due to size and US backing; is now a full time EU member with veto rights in its decision making process, equal to those that some of the words superpowers enjoy (UK, France and Germany,) and a country that inevitably at least the EU and its member states have to regard as their partner! In comparison to what we used to be before EU accession, in terms of international political displacement (i.e. a "klotsoskoufi,) with what we have politically become after EU accession, it is like the difference between the moon and the sun, or between day and night!

Because what I feel is that NOW Turkey has more chances for a de facto recognition of the "TRNC" than ever, the world does not see the Greek Cypriots as victims of an invasion anymore, but as spoilt rich people who do not want to share their wealth with their "isolated" Turkish countrymen

And what have we gained or achieved all these years that were seen as the victims of an invasion? Whatever we have gained all these 30 years that we were seen as the victims (i.e. nothing,) is exactly what the TCs will gain now for been seen as the victims (nothing!)

What have you gained in the past 3 years since entering the EU with regards to solving the Cyprus problem? are you any closer than you were 3 years ago?

While you maintain your arrogant and defiant stance towards a solution keep looking north and watching how things will unfold before you very eyes, you will end up begging for the AP to be brought back by which time it will be to late.

Yes VP, we keep looking north and the only thing we see is your motherland's troops "goose-stepping" like those of the SS, and painting (read littering) mountains with "how happy to say I am a Turk" slogans! We keep looking north and we only see you having electricity cuts every other day, but you keep lighting and flashing the transvestite Turkish flag on the mountain! Kitsch!

[Viewpoint]

I would like to ask this: Do you feel that, after the rejection of the plan, the future looks brighter for Cyprus?

Yes, the future looks brighter now, simply because little Cyprus that used to be the "klotsoskoufi" of the international community, with no real political leverage and power in the international affairs, and which no one thought of ever taking seriously -set aside deal with its problem in front of the Turkish political displacement due to size and US backing; is now a full time EU member with veto rights in its decision making process, equal to those that some of the words superpowers enjoy (UK, France and Germany,) and a country that inevitably at least the EU and its member states have to regard as their partner! In comparison to what we used to be before EU accession, in terms of international political displacement (i.e. a "klotsoskoufi,) with what we have politically become after EU accession, it is like the difference between the moon and the sun, or between day and night!

Because what I feel is that NOW Turkey has more chances for a de facto recognition of the "TRNC" than ever, the world does not see the Greek Cypriots as victims of an invasion anymore, but as spoilt rich people who do not want to share their wealth with their "isolated" Turkish countrymen

And what have we gained or achieved all these years that were seen as the victims of an invasion? Whatever we have gained all these 30 years that we were seen as the victims (i.e. nothing,) is exactly what the TCs will gain now for been seen as the victims (nothing!)

What have you gained in the past 3 years since entering the EU with regards to solving the Cyprus problem? are you any closer than you were 3 years ago?

While you maintain your arrogant and defiant stance towards a solution keep looking north and watching how things will unfold before you very eyes, you will end up begging for the AP to be brought back by which time it will be to late.

Yes VP, we keep looking north and the only thing we see is your motherland's troops "goose-stepping" like those of the SS, and painting (read littering) mountains with "how happy to say I am a Turk" slogans! We keep looking north and we only see you having electricity cuts every other day, but you keep lighting and flashing the transvestite Turkish flag on the mountain! Kitsch!

Keep looking as things unfold right before your eyes and stay entrenched in the same mentality that got you into this mess in the first place. You can try to ridcule and belittle whats going on but the bottom line is you cant have it and that really gets you right where it hurts no matter how you try to camoflouge it.

The stupid thing is that you are so arrogant that you continue to support the "RoC" who only work at keeping refugees silenced as they enjoy the power of being a GC state which is what they always wanted anyway, the land is a small price to pay for a recognized state which is 100% GC something they will never share.

[Get Real!]

...the land is a small price to pay for a recognized state which is 100% GC something they will never share.

Ever more creative ways to convince us!

PS: I fully support your request for everyone to avoid foul language.

[cypezokyli]

ofcource we did !!!
we gained our entrance to EU !!

Oh c'mon pezo! You can do better!
Have we gained our entrance to the EU because we were seen as the victims? This is a joke!
Our entrance to the EU we have gained it because on the one hand we had an economic and political stability record that was at par with the rest of the existing EU member states, and on the other hand because Greece had rightfully blackmailed the other EU member states not to reject Cyprus' accession on grounds relating to its political problem (i.e. the source of its victimization,) otherwise Greece would have blocked the entire enlargement process. Not only we did not get our entrance in the EU because we were seen as the victims of an invasion, but to the contrary, most EU countries were ready to use it as a reason not to accept our membership, i.e. they were opting for our double victimization!

first i dont really accept the term "victim".

our EU process was directly connected to our readyness to negotiate, and that we prooved during our accession process over and over again.

despite, the economic stability (which is ofcource important), the significant help from greece wouldnt have any arguments to be based upon, hadnt we repeatedly showed our good will to negotiate.

besides after helsinki we had (albeit unclear) condition to continue working towards a solution.

moderation pays of, and it did pay of so long we used it.

So, what have we gained all these years that we were the "good boys" as you say? Have the Turks during all those 30 long years that we were the "good boys," been convinced to return back even one single square meter of our stolen lands? Have they been convinced to allow one single GC refugee to return? Have they been convinced to withdraw one single Turkish soldier? The answer is a big "No!" No matter how moderate and good boys we have shown the international community to have been, we have achieved a big nothing, outside some UN resolutions!

you have too high expectations from the international community.
they are not going to find a solution for us, nor will they force turkish soldiers to go. only the two of us can do that..... mind you, the strategy of tpap will also moove not a single soldier....

the international community did punish the bad boy for years now, with embargoes - i know that for us this is not enough, but this is as much as the international community was prepared to do.

and it was precisely the combination of the accession process with the embargoes that created a window of opportunity in 2004.


the extreme positions of denktash brought nothing to the tc besides embargoes. now they are the ones who appeare as moderate and as a concequence the isolation is discussed in the EU, the UN german parliament etc.... and if the isolation is lifted then.....vartou rigani...

while the (""""diekdikitiki"""") policy we follow for the last 3 years (and i am not reffering to the NO vote, but after that) was full of "achievements" and "successes".


........
since 1948, we followed a mixture of maximalist and moderate policy.
an evaluation of the two clearly shows which of the two is the more sensible strategy.

[alexISS]

And what have we gained or achieved all these years that were seen as the victims of an invasion? Whatever we have gained all these 30 years that we were seen as the victims (i.e. nothing,) is exactly what the TCs will gain now for been seen as the victims (nothing!)

ofcource we did !!!
we gained our entrance to EU !!
which according to you, is our biggest advantage.

and this was only possible with greece to our side, a gc moderate leader (and not a victim-like) and a tc extremist leader.

moderation pays of, and it did pay of so long we used it.
now tcs are using it, and sooner or later they will gain from it.

That's EXACTLY what I was going to say, thank you.
The EU entry was just that, the reward for all those years that the Greek Cypriots were the side that wanted and was working for a solution, while the "other" side, represented by Denktash was, as you said, the extremist one. But just before the final signature that marked the EU accession, the roles were reversed, fortunately it was too late for the EU leaders to change their mind. Because they would DEFINATELY change their mind had they had more time to know what Papadopoulos is and what he represents.

And now the side that has come to power, those that are the Greek Cypriot equivalent of Denktash, feel almighty and invincible because of the EU entry that was granted after the promise Cyprus gave that she would do everything humanly possible for a solution... how ironic.

So now Cyprus is an EU member, she needs noone, nothing can "stop" her now! Screw Greece who risked everything for Cyprus to be accepted as a member! Cyprus has veto powers granted by the EU laws. Well, the EU may be a club of countries that act by the law, but when justice is not served by the law, the law will change, and that's why I fear that things can only get worse