Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

@BigOz and DT:

Several points I`d like to highlight regarding your "Arrangement" if I may:

(1) The Unification in Cyprus based on a U.N. framework (with Resolutions dating back to 1990) mandates a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status:

Resolution 750 (April 1992) (which has been reaffirmed annually since then)-

“Reaffirms the position set out in resolutions 649 (1990) of March 12 1990 and 716 (1991) October 11 1991 that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as defined in Paragraph 11 of Secretary-General’s report in a b-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession;”

(2) The agreed principal by the two community leaders on Unification dating back to the High Level Agreements in 1977 mandates a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status. This has been also strongly highlighted by the recent Agreement between Tassos Papadopoulos and Mehmet Ali Talat on 8 July 2006 (commonly referred as the 8 July Agreement) which specifically states the following in its first article:

1. Commitment to the unification of Cyprus based on a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation and political equality, as set out in the relevant Security Council resolutions.

(3) But above all the people’s desire to Unification (at least for those who want it to begin with) is a one based on bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status where neither of the communities are allowed explicitly or implicitly to extend their will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other.

Any Unification plan undermining these principals in Cyprus will be rejected (by all) and if imposed will be doomed to failure at the expense of the tremendous suffering of all Cypriots. On this basis, although I appreciate your arrangement’s optimistic nature, I strongly believe that it is nothing more than a dangerously fragile utopia neither wanted nor accepted by the people or the leadership of Cyprus. Ideals based on good-will will remain to be unpretentious, fracturable and susceptible to exploitation if the frameworks of bi-zonality, bi-communality and equal political status of the two communities are disregarded, i.e. it will simply not work. Vulnerable set of ideals that are nearly impossible to safeguard have failed miserably in the past with catastrophic consequences for the two communities.

Finally, there is an undisputable reality of Cyprus that all parties who engage themselves in the venture of solving the Cyprus problem should remember: there exist two communities in Cyprus that has in the past and will in the future have conflict if the will and sovereignty of one is forced upon the other. TCs and GCs can be good friends, they can be good partners, they can be good colleagues and so on, that is: as long as their communal autonomy are acknowledged in zone, administration and political representation. I am all for putting the past behind but also strongly believe in learning from it and understanding the will of the people before imposing any solution in Cyprus.

As defined in SGs report paragraph 11 etc etc. report s/23780 (Galli ideas) that were not accepted by your side as a whole....

[Murataga]

The issue is quite simple: although you do not make what the RoC should be and is supposed to be recognized as, why the hell are you hijacking it, claiming to be it, being treated as it, and allowed in the meantime to usurp the benefits that go along with it to use against us?

If you were to look into Partnership law or Divorce law you would find that the partner who ABANDONS the partnership/agreement has in many ways shot themselves in the foot. There are proper/accepted channels to solve problems and/or dissolve agreements if desired but running away from such an agreement and becoming an accessory to illegalities is NOT acceptable so your above theory is nothing but... crap!

It is called getting kicked out through violence and murder not abandoning. We can argue about it as much as you like, but that is besides the point. What I am telling you is not theory it is fact written in law:

You are not what the legal and lawful RoC is defined to be and recognized by the U.N. and as our leaders agreed for it to be. Yet you are hijacking that title and allowed in the meantime to usurp 100% of the benefits that go along with it to use against us. End of story.

My point is that the entity called the “RoC” legally still exists abandoned or not because nobody applied/succeeded to dissolve it as far as I’m aware and in a court of law that would count.

If you and I were to enter a partnership and setup a bookshop as an example, and we then have an argument so you grab half the stock and some showcases and setup a new business elsewhere without dissolving the partnership do you honestly think a court of law would be in your favor?

If I then complain then legally the police should come around to your new shop and arrest you for stealing from your own business and confiscate the goods. True or false?

The metaphor you bring about is neither correct or representative. I just told you this, yet you are repeating it. If you want to discuss abandoned vs. kicked out, fine, but it is not the issue here.

The RoC which you occupy and enjoy the benefits of is not what the U.N. brings forth, legalizes and recognizes. It is not what we agreed with the GC community. You have no right to exhaust and occupy it in its current form let alone enjoy its benefits.

Any way, I am going to call it a day and head off to bed now. Good night.

[Pyrpolizer]

The concept of political equality was always targeted by the TC side to justify partition.
On the other hand the GC side said, sure, in a Federation you will have the political equality you want. To avoid any misunderstanding the concept of THIS Political equality within the Federation was clarified thus:






So Murataga, the concept of Political equality will come from the fact that we accepted Federation (as cleearly defined by the UN) and NOT because you have any politically equal seperate country, otherwise the UN would define it as such.

[Piratis]

Murataga, until the Cypriot people approve something different, the Republic of Cyprus remains the one and only legal state in Cyprus either you like it or not.

The UN did not declare the Republic of Cyprus invalid, what they declared invalid is the pseudo state you created by means of murder and ethnic cleansing, or did you miss this "detail"?

So it is easy:
Republic of Cyprus: Legal state. World wide recognized. Perfectly legal.

"trnc"/Turkish occupation: Legally invalid criminally created against international law and human rights.

[BirKibrisli]

This is sooooo typical an example of why we have not solved the Cyprob all these years....As soon as there seems to ge good grounds for agreement other people jump in and raise the old and worn arguments for and against this and that...and before we know it we are calling each other names again,swearing we cannot possibly live together...

GetReal....you are smart enough to know not to use the word "assimilation"...That is for most TCs like a red rag to a bull...As mrfromng's response clearly showed....The word you are looking for is "integration"...People coming together and sharing many values,traits etc but retaining the differences which make them unique....My strong belief as you all know by now is for a unitary state run by Cypriots for Cypriots of all hues,with strict observance of human rights,equal opportunity,anti-discrimination and the-rule-of-the-law principles ....

But is it obvious to even Blind Freddie (whoever he was!) that we are not going to get there from where we are...We do need an interim solution to build trust and understanding and respect and what have you...in order for everyone,especially the TCs who feel physically threatened ,to feel comfortable to leave their bunkers...There is no eason why with goodwill we cannot manage to live together as a proud nation of Cypriots....But we must start looking at the big picture,and be prepared to let go of the old mistrust and the bitterness and the accusations from both sides...Cyprus problem will only be solved if we are all committed to the vision of one people,one nation,one state...Before all else this vision has to be established and fostered for the majority of GCs and the majority of the TCs...Everyone has to make sacrifices for this vision to be achieved...The GC side will need to be a bit more flexible regarding the democratic and human rights considerations,and the TC side will need be flexible reagrding the safeguards and guarantees they want...If nobody gives an inch we will get nowhere....or rather we will get faster to where we are going now...tearing our country and our nation apart....

[miltiades]

An excellent post full of wisdom and common sense , that is why I have such an enormous amount of respect for you Bir . Here are two Cypriots who though have never met , share a dream of a united Cyprus where our people will live next to each other and just as Kikapu , mrfromng and Bir would not hesitate to have me as a neighbour and so would I not have any concerns having them all close by , I would include also BigOz , hot headed maybe he is but certainly a man of principles who would reciprocate respect when asked to do so as he proved himself to me recently. VP has to be included too and so must all Cypriots who want this nation to continue its existence as an independent nation and not least , my dear friend , or advocate , Eliko !!

[Kifeas]

As long as we are under one Federal Government and that neither state is going to apply Racist, Undemocratic, and Dictatorial rules to the opposing ethnic citizens, and that each citizen have exactly the same rights as the next, then I do not care where the FUCK I live, as long as the name of my country will remain to be called CYPRUS, do you.??

I have analysed and proved in the most accurate and factual way that this was not going to be the case in the anan plan, exposing the Turkish side through the constitution they got vagabond Kofi Annan to attach for them in his failed "solution" proposal!

Here in this post is all the evidence one needs:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 054#173054

Thanks god Tassos Papadopoulos saw the devil, and bravely stood up against it, in spite of the efforts of vagabonds such as Kofi Annan, De Sotto and Verheugen to cheat on the GC side and sell us "seaweeds for silky ribbons!"

I have finally exposed the totalitarian, nationalist, un-cultural and opportunist attitude and aims of the Turkish kemalist establishment and its TC cronies, for trying to impose on the Greek Cypriots a status similar to that of the now rebelling Kurdish people of Turkey, whom they deny the right for cultural self-determination in their own country, under the kemalist doctrine of “one state, one language, one nation!”

They wanted in this way any GC that would choose to return back to were they were ethnically cleansed from in 1974 -back to their ancestral lands were they used to have their civilisation and all their cultural, religious, educational and linguistic rights for thousands of years, with their own signature to deprive them from all of those rights! They wanted to deny them their dignity and self-respect, so that they either choose not to return and thus live the 30% of Cyprus entirely as a Turkish province for the TCs and the mainland settlers, or if they choose to return to accept that they will have to be turkified themselves!

This is the diabolical nature of the kemalist Turkish ideology, one of the last remaining fascist, kitsch and banal ideologies on earth in our times!

Thank you Tassos for seen the devil and protecting the history, the dignity and the self-respect of the GC community!

[Pyrpolizer]

It goes without saying the constitution of the Federal Stastes has to be agreed by both sides in case the solution would be Federal. this DID NOT HAPPEN during the Anan Plan. In fact each side prepared a constitution the last few days and whatever that was it was attached....

If the Anan Plan was accepted we would be in such a mess we would never be able to run a state.It would be a miracle if that state would last for more than 6 months.

[bigOz]

Here you go! Try working that one out...

we had a good run BigOz....guess we can go back to calling each other names now.

I do think however that all the points raised can be dealt with. I shall return to this after the pub.

Do not give up DT! What we discussed is the key to the solution and at least there are few people who can see the truth. There will always be people who will resist change and look at any constructive idea as suspicious. They will dissolve into more sensible approach during a transition period when they realise their fears were unfounded. Just like many though TCsd an GCs will start shooting each other when people started crossing the Green Line!

I NEVER THOUGHT WHAT WE STARTED WOULD CARRY ON ALL NIGHT LONG INTO 5 PAGES OF POSTS BY MANY!!! The fact that people are discussing it (albeit in different tunes) proves we are on to a good thing - and guess what? No one had actually called anyone any names.

Reading through the posts I realise some are very bored and rather go round in circles just to continue an argument rather than make progress. Having said that, I have a very busy schedule today and I do not think I'll be very active on the forum - the same applies for tomorrow and next couple of weeks. I'll try and have a quick glance at the developments though...

[MR-from-NG]

As long as we are under one Federal Government and that neither state is going to apply Racist, Undemocratic, and Dictatorial rules to the opposing ethnic citizens, and that each citizen have exactly the same rights as the next, then I do not care where the FUCK I live, as long as the name of my country will remain to be called CYPRUS, do you.??

I have analysed and proved in the most accurate and factual way that this was not going to be the case in the anan plan, exposing the Turkish side through the constitution they got vagabond Kofi Annan to attach for them in his failed "solution" proposal!

Here in this post is all the evidence one needs:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 054#173054

Thanks god Tassos Papadopoulos saw the devil, and bravely stood up against it, in spite of the efforts of vagabonds such as Kofi Annan, De Sotto and Verheugen to cheat on the GC side and sell us "seaweeds for silky ribbons!"

I have finally exposed the totalitarian, nationalist, un-cultural and opportunist attitude and aims of the Turkish kemalist establishment and its TC cronies, for trying to impose on the Greek Cypriots a status similar to that of the now rebelling Kurdish people of Turkey, whom they deny the right for cultural self-determination in their own country, under the kemalist doctrine of “one state, one language, one nation!”

They wanted in this way any GC that would choose to return back to were they were ethnically cleansed from in 1974 -back to their ancestral lands were they used to have their civilisation and all their cultural, religious, educational and linguistic rights for thousands of years, with their own signature to deprive them from all of those rights! They wanted to deny them their dignity and self-respect, so that they either choose not to return and thus live the 30% of Cyprus entirely as a Turkish province for the TCs and the mainland settlers, or if they choose to return to accept that they will have to be turkified themselves!

This is the diabolical nature of the kemalist Turkish ideology, one of the last remaining fascist, kitsch and banal ideologies on earth in our times!

Thank you Tassos for seen the devil and protecting the history, the dignity and the self-respect of the GC community!

So what about the Greek representation in the making of this plan. Did they sell you out? or should they not have been appointed to this job because they had low IQ.

Kifeas, like it or not it will be another Annan plan that your terrorist Presindent Papad will eventually agree to, and it will not be a lot different to the one that was refused.