Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

@BigOz and DT:

Several points I`d like to highlight regarding your "Arrangement" if I may:

(1) The Unification in Cyprus based on a U.N. framework (with Resolutions dating back to 1990) mandates a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status:

Resolution 750 (April 1992) (which has been reaffirmed annually since then)-

“Reaffirms the position set out in resolutions 649 (1990) of March 12 1990 and 716 (1991) October 11 1991 that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as defined in Paragraph 11 of Secretary-General’s report in a b-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession;”

(2) The agreed principal by the two community leaders on Unification dating back to the High Level Agreements in 1977 mandates a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status. This has been also strongly highlighted by the recent Agreement between Tassos Papadopoulos and Mehmet Ali Talat on 8 July 2006 (commonly referred as the 8 July Agreement) which specifically states the following in its first article:

1. Commitment to the unification of Cyprus based on a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation and political equality, as set out in the relevant Security Council resolutions.

(3) But above all the people’s desire to Unification (at least for those who want it to begin with) is a one based on bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status where neither of the communities are allowed explicitly or implicitly to extend their will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other.

Any Unification plan undermining these principals in Cyprus will be rejected (by all) and if imposed will be doomed to failure at the expense of the tremendous suffering of all Cypriots. On this basis, although I appreciate your arrangement’s optimistic nature, I strongly believe that it is nothing more than a dangerously fragile utopia neither wanted nor accepted by the people or the leadership of Cyprus. Ideals based on good-will will remain to be unpretentious, fracturable and susceptible to exploitation if the frameworks of bi-zonality, bi-communality and equal political status of the two communities are disregarded, i.e. it will simply not work. Vulnerable set of ideals that are nearly impossible to safeguard have failed miserably in the past with catastrophic consequences for the two communities.

Finally, there is an undisputable reality of Cyprus that all parties who engage themselves in the venture of solving the Cyprus problem should remember: there exist two communities in Cyprus that has in the past and will in the future have conflict if the will and sovereignty of one is forced upon the other. TCs and GCs can be good friends, they can be good partners, they can be good colleagues and so on, that is: as long as their communal autonomy are acknowledged in zone, administration and political representation. I am all for putting the past behind but also strongly believe in learning from it and understanding the will of the people before imposing any solution in Cyprus.

[DT.]

from what little i read about his election campaign i think this is the approach kassoulides is going to implement if elected. He says its a 10 year solution plan (not sure if its what we were just talking about though.

[Piratis]

BBF is a vague term that is not implemented anywhere and there is nowhere a clear definition of its meaning.

What is certain is that the resolutions that mention BBF also reaffirm all the other other resolutions about the illegality of "trnc", and the illegality of the violation of the sovereignty of Republic of Cyprus by Turkey.

Also what is certain is that BBF can not be contrary to the UN principles, such as those of human rights and democracy.

Therefore we are willing to accept a BBF as a compromise if our rights are not violated and the land distribution is proportional, but this doesn't mean we will accept whatever the Turks want BBF to mean.

[quote=Murataga]But above all the people’s desire to Unification (at least for those who want it to begin with) is a one based on bi-zonal, bi-communal federation of the two communities with equal political status where neither of the communities are allowed explicitly or implicitly to extend their will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other. [/quote]

This is a good example of how you totally misinterpret what BBF means. You think of BBF as effectively meaning two separate countries. What you want (partition) is explicitly prohibited by all UN resolutions. Even the few lines that you choose to post from one resolution (because you thought it served your aim) explicitly state: "Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship

TCs do not have a separate sovereignty. If the two communities would have separate sovereignties, then the territories that TCs would have sovergnity would be some small villages spread around the island where the TCs are the legal majority. Places like Kerynia, Morfou, Famagousta and the majority of Cyprus land would fall under the GC sovereignty since the majority of the population of those pleases are Greek Cypriots.

So get your facts straight. There is (and there will always be) only one Cyprus, with only one sovereignty and only one citizenship. So stop trying to cover your partition aim under the cover of BBF. As I said before BBF is a quite vague term, but if there is one thing that is explicitly stated is that there is only a single Cypriot sovereignty and citizenship, and not "two separate countries, side by side" as you (and Denctash for decades) have tried to pass with your lame propaganda.

[quote=Murataga]Finally, there is an undisputable reality of Cyprus that all parties who engage themselves in the venture of solving the Cyprus problem should remember: there exist two communities in Cyprus that has in the past and will in the future have conflict if the will and sovereignty of one is forced upon the other. [/quote]

As we established already communities do not have separate sovereignty. If you want separate sovereignty then personally I wouldn't mind as long as you exercise such sovereignty over land that belongs to you. You can not steal our lands and then claim separate sovergnity over them. Doing so is criminal and illegal and is what the UN explicitly prohibits as acts of "partition or secession".

So the undisputed reality is that you have illegally stole lands that do not belong to you, and as long as you continue to occupy our lands there will be conflicts and wars.

[bigOz]

Here you go! Try working that one out...

[alexISS]

I think this is the first time that not-so-moderate members of the forum from both sides agree on an early idea of a solution plan

[Get Real!]

As we established already communities do not have separate sovereignty. If you want separate sovereignty then personally I wouldn't mind as long as you exercise such sovereignty over land that belongs to you. You can not steal our lands and then claim separate sovergnity over them. Doing so is criminal and illegal and is what the UN explicitly prohibits as acts of "partition or secession".

So the undisputed reality is that you have illegally stole lands that do not belong to you, and as long as you continue to occupy our lands there will be conflicts and wars.

That’s exactly why I’ve never been in favor of any of these arrangements because they are nothing but segregation schemes in disguise.

The “community” approach to solving the Cyprus problem is the VERY PROBLEM ITSELF because it implies that there are different types of people having different types of needs and different types of wants! Well duh! If that’s the case then why amalgamate them anyway???

Countries cannot be built like that but the other way round. The country is established with its clearly defined borders and clearly defined constitution and the people then choose to either live under it or leave.

You do NOT build countries around community needs… it’s the communities that must adopt themselves around the country! For this very reason I have always been and always will be in favor of assimilation and nothing else.

Those Turkish Cypriots that are good citizens having good intentions and just wanting a better life while retaining their culture and ways won’t have a problem joining a larger and more prosperous family but the Turkish Cypriot cowboys who want to climb on a high horse and wave their Colt45’s will.

As far as I’m concerned THEY are the Cyprus problem.

[Murataga]

@Piratis-

The sovereignty of the communities is for them to be politically equal entities from one of the designated bi-zones without allowing the other community to impose her will over the other’s communal affairs and /or administration. The single sovereignty of the State is her superior jurisdiction over the two zones, which of course is granted if she is formed by two politically equal entities comprised by the members of the two communities of the bi-zones. These are the principles agreed upon which are very clear. You may tag these principles as vague as you wish or name them with anything you wish; regardless, a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation comprised of two communities with politically equal statuses is what has been agreed in principle by both the leaders of the two communities and set forth by the U.N.

Finally, you stated:

So the undisputed reality is that you have illegally stole lands that do not belong to you, and as long as you continue to occupy our lands there will be conflicts and wars.

The undisputed reality is that Cyprus belongs to us aswell, despite it, you stole the State and all the benefits that go along with it, have and continue to exploit those gains against us and as long as you continue to occupy it there will be conflicts and wars.

[MR-from-NG]

All these analysis and diagnosis, where has it got us?. The problem is a simple one, the solution is even simpler.

Problem 1. The Geeks.
Problem 2. The Turks

Solution. Separation, partition, segregation, divorce etc etc call it whatever you want. One undeniable fact is this we can get along on individual basis, I have Greek friends and I'm sure a lot of Greeks have Turkish friends and that's fine. But as 2 separate communities we don not have a chance on earth. Lets call it a day.

[DT.]

Here you go! Try working that one out...

we had a good run BigOz....guess we can go back to calling each other names now.

I do thik however that all the points raised can be dealt with. I shall retuen to this after the pub.

[Piratis]

The sovereignty of the communities is for them to be politically equal entities from one of the designated bi-zones without allowing the other community to impose her will over the other’s communal affairs and /or administration.

Communities do not have sovereignty - period. What you say is just you usual partition dreams, not what UN resolutions say.

The undisputed reality is that Cyprus belongs to us aswell, despite it, you stole the State and all the benefits that go along with it, have and continue to exploit those gains against us and as long as you continue to occupy it there will be conflicts and wars.

I have many times said that you give us the 100% of our rights and lands and you get the 100% of your rights and lands. You reject thisand you choose to have war instead. Your choice, not mine. And as long as your choice is war then you should be ready to take the consequences of your choice and of your illegal and criminal actions.

Solution. Separation, partition, segregation, divorce etc etc call it whatever you want.

No problem. Give us back our lands, and then do whatever you want. What we want is our rights and our lands, which you have no right to deprive us from, and not necessarily to have any relationship with you if you don't want such relationship.