Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

DT I think we have to be realistic.
It would be a miracle if more than 15% GC refugees return within 10 years. It will be a miracle if Famagusta regains even 10,000 out of her original 50 thousand inhabitants.

The Tcs ask us all the time to look on the realities, it's about time they also look at the realities. There can be no restictions on the right of return, and all those who want safeguards, they should themselves look at the realities, and in case the cannot figure out what will happen in the short and long term future, then pay some expert from abroad to figure it for them..

think the subject is more on the govt structure rather than anything else pyro. I'm in agreement with Vp and BigOz that on the way to a unitary state a federal bizonal federation be established with added safeguards durng a transition period. In very simplistic terms there is a principle agreement there that you cannot maintain 2 federal component states with restrictions on movement, habitation and electoral process.

Absolutely right DT!
There has been a lot of misconception and misunderstanding of TC views on this forum because without reading carefully what was actually written most have reacted with instinct believing the authors are asking for a permanent partition. As a TC I was, l and still am at times, very surprised at the misinterpretations - hence a lot of the strong arguments were going on between people who were in fact talking about the same purpose and aims!

No one wants a divided island were there is a constant danger of a military build up, or tension by Turkey or Greece.

No TC wants or asked for a partition! Vast majority of TCs are proud of their Cypriot identity, and even those "settlers" who have been here for 30 years have picked up and adapted to Cypriot culture, do not ask for partition!

OK so there is a problem with what happened in the past and we can talk forever if the "settlers" should be sent back, or some (especially those who were born here) have earned the right to be citizens of RoC. We can do the same about the history of the island and which ethnic community suffered more or not - but it is clear, at this time, we'll never agree in a million years. WHY?

Because there are still extremist, fanatic elements on both sides who are capable of destroying the delicate process of reunification by their thuggish ideas and behaviour. What the TCs have been arguing all this time boils down to this:

OK, we get rid of the Turkish army, we unite as one island and submit to democracy - which in this case will mean submitting to GC rule - and put out faith in their hands. This is exactly were the past haunts the TCs! Their problem is not of property or money, but safety of their and their children's lives. They are not really interested how the UN and Cyprus governments on both sides intend to deal with the property losses resulting from mass movement of the population during 1974. They want assurances about own safety which the RoC government at this time cannot really give and even if they did we all know they cannot keep, because not all GCs are at the same wavelength. We can all see examples of that even in this forum.

What they say next is - we have fallen well behind the GC side of the island in economic terms because of the embargoes. Let us get our community geared up for a more prosperous life under RoC, and in the mean time lets get those who want to return to North and/or compensate for the land losses that had incurred, and get rid of the dangerous elements that may harm the reunification process.

The GCs are saying "Yes but you also have dangerous elements in your community, not everyone on your side thinks the same, who is to assure us etc." and try do adorn that argument by what had happened to them during a narrow part of recent history, with no due consideration as to "why" it had happened.

Even if the GCs were right, lets all think about this sensibly for a moment. Who is most likely to come to harm if the Turkish army pulled out today and the two communities decided to live as one with all the borders taken down and no restrictions of any kind. Does anyone realistically believe the small fanatic elements of TC population would be able to function or do anything to harm the GCs? Of course not!

Can you say the same about the TCs in a similar scenario? What happens when this smaller ethnic community of Cypriots (the TCs) are targeted by some fanatic organization or group and start shooting bullets or throwing bombs at them? Turkey will not be able to return back to the island in a million years! What realistic guarantees can the RoC government can give to TCs about their safety? At this time, are they capable of controlling such actions and securing safety of the TCs? If you put your hand on your heart and give honest answers - you will than see what the biggest problem for the TCs is.

That is why a transition period where a secure environment can be created for co-existence is absolutely essential and this period requires good will by both parties. It is no good saying "we'll object to any embargoes on TCs being lifted because they are holding property left behind by the fleeing GC community of 1974". Or arguing "any softening on current attitudes can mean recognition of the TRNC". These are childish arguments that serve no purpose.

The RoC will say to UN "OK I have no objections to trade with North Cyprus" will be based on the condition that this is a part of the whole reunification and peace process. Not an exercise to recognise TRNC! Hence, how is this going to help the recognition of TRNC? On the contrary, it will make TCs feel more secure and see their GC counterparts as trustworthy with good intentions. They will also know that any deviations from the peace process (eg. asking for the recognition of TRNC) can and will bring back the economic embargoes - imposable by the UN!

The above is exactly why there are GC politicians who can claim that current policies are alienating the TCs, and in reality, helping the eventual permanent partition of the island. As TCs in this forum we just cannot seem to be able to get that message home and we are constantly accused of fanaticism or partitionism!

[DT.]

DT I think we have to be realistic.
It would be a miracle if more than 15% GC refugees return within 10 years. It will be a miracle if Famagusta regains even 10,000 out of her original 50 thousand inhabitants.

The Tcs ask us all the time to look on the realities, it's about time they also look at the realities. There can be no restictions on the right of return, and all those who want safeguards, they should themselves look at the realities, and in case the cannot figure out what will happen in the short and long term future, then pay some expert from abroad to figure it for them..

think the subject is more on the govt structure rather than anything else pyro. I'm in agreement with Vp and BigOz that on the way to a unitary state a federal bizonal federation be established with added safeguards durng a transition period. In very simplistic terms there is a principle agreement there that you cannot maintain 2 federal component states with restrictions on movement, habitation and electoral process.

Absolutely right DT!
There has been a lot of misconception and misunderstanding of TC views on this forum because without reading carefully what was actually written most have reacted with instinct believing the authors are asking for a permanent partition. As a TC I was, l and still am at times, very surprised at the misinterpretations - hence a lot of the strong arguments were going on between people who were in fact talking about the same purpose and aims!

No one wants a divided island were there is a constant danger of a military build up, or tension by Turkey or Greece.

No TC wants or asked for a partition!
apart from vp and zan ona number of occassions BigOz

Vast majority of TCs are proud of their Cypriot identity, and even those "settlers" who have been here for 30 years have picked up and adapted to Cypriot culture, do not ask for partition!

OK so there is a problem with what happened in the past and we can talk forever if the "settlers" should be sent back, or some (especially those who were born here) have earned the right to be citizens of RoC. We can do the same about the history of the island and which ethnic community suffered more or not - but it is clear, at this time, we'll never agree in a million years. WHY?

Because there are still extremist, fanatic elements on both sides who are capable of destroying the delicate process of reunification by their thuggish ideas and behaviour. What the TCs have been arguing all this time boils down to this:

OK, we get rid of the Turkish army, we unite as one island and submit to democracy - which in this case will mean submitting to GC rule - and put out faith in their hands. This is exactly were the past haunts the TCs! Their problem is not of property or money, but safety of their and their children's lives. They are not really interested how the UN and Cyprus governments on both sides intend to deal with the property losses resulting from mass movement of the population during 1974. They want assurances about own safety which the RoC government at this time cannot really give and even if they did we all know they cannot keep, because not all GCs are at the same wavelength. We can all see examples of that even in this forum.

What they say next is - we have fallen well behind the GC side of the island in economic terms because of the embargoes. Let us get our community geared up for a more prosperous life under RoC, and in the mean time lets get those who want to return to North and/or compensate for the land losses that had incurred, and get rid of the dangerous elements that may harm the reunification process.

The GCs are saying "Yes but you also have dangerous elements in your community, not everyone on your side thinks the same, who is to assure us etc." and try do adorn that argument by what had happened to them during a narrow part of recent history, with no due consideration as to "why" it had happened.
You said before that we will never agree on the suffering our communities have felt. I reccomend for the sake of discussion you steer clear of this subject as you yourself has said we'll never agree in a million years.


Even if the GCs were right, lets all think about this sensibly for a moment. Who is most likely to come to harm if the Turkish army pulled out today and the two communities decided to live as one with all the borders taken down and no restrictions of any kind. Does anyone realistically believe the small fanatic elements of TC population would be able to function or do anything to harm the GCs? Of course not!

Can you say the same about the TCs in a similar scenario? What happens when this smaller ethnic community of Cypriots (the TCs) are targeted by some fanatic organization or group and start shooting bullets or throwing bombs at them? Turkey will not be able to return back to the island in a million years! What realistic guarantees can the RoC government can give to TCs about their safety? At this time, are they capable of controlling such actions and securing safety of the TCs? If you put your hand on your heart and give honest answers - you will than see what the biggest problem for the TCs is.

I believe that a eu member with international obligations and interests to balance can provide more than enough assurances on this. An international army for a transition period has also been suggested.

That is why a transition period where a secure environment can be created for co-existence is absolutely essential and this period requires good will by both parties. It is no good saying "we'll object to any embargoes on TCs being lifted because they are holding property left behind by the fleeing GC community of 1974". Or arguing "any softening on current attitudes can mean recognition of the TRNC". These are childish arguments that serve no purpose.

The RoC will say to UN "OK I have no objections to trade with North Cyprus" will be based on the condition that this is a part of the whole reunification and peace process. Not an exercise to recognise TRNC! Hence, how is this going to help the recognition of TRNC? On the contrary, it will make TCs feel more secure and see their GC counterparts as trustworthy with good intentions. They will also know that any deviations from the peace process (eg. asking for the recognition of TRNC) can and will bring back the economic embargoes - imposable by the UN!

The above is exactly why there are GC politicians who can claim that current policies are alienating the TCs, and in reality, helping the eventual permanent partition of the island. As TCs in this forum we just cannot seem to be able to get that message home and we are constantly accused of fanaticism or partitionism!

The issue is a simple one. As s basis of an entire 2 part agreement with phase 1 being a federal bi zonal solution with extra protections for both communities and
phase 2 being a unitary state

if the agreement is signed as a whole and there is a pre-agreed timeline for the 2 phases gauranteed by the US and the EU then personally i would see no reason why we shouldn't lift the embargoes of trade under the federal unmbrella and to begin re-patriating some of the refugees.

[bigOz]

The issue is a simple one. As s basis of an entire 2 part agreement with phase 1 being a federal bi zonal solution with extra protections for both communities and
phase 2 being a unitary state

if the agreement is signed as a whole and there is a pre-agreed timeline for the 2 phases gauranteed by the US and the EU then personally i would see no reason why we shouldn't lift the embargoes of trade under the federal unmbrella and to begin re-patriating some of the refugees.

So it looks like between the two of us, we have finally discovered the - solution to the Cyprus problem!

The RoC government makes a statement saying "TCs dissolve the TRNC and start calling themselves Northern Federal state of Cyprus. In return we'll call for trade embargoes to be lifted and immediate talks to start on the full definition and powers of this state, under Federal states of Cyprus Republic".

This being part of what you have just expressed above and the "pre-agreed time line" to be set for a fixed period. At the end of this period a new evaluation of the relationships between and functioning of the states is to be reviewed by an international (UN) panel who will make the final judgement on the reunification of the island. Their evaluations will be based on the criteria like:

- "maintaining demilitarisation",
- "total disarmament of civilians"
- "maintaining educational, anti-racist educational system",
- "controlling and eradicating fanatic groups against united Cyprus",
- "establishing a multilingual police force on both sides, geared to join up forces after unification.
- "maintaining a small but equal number of professional national guardsmen from both sides, educated and trained under one roof to protect Cyprus and its constitution against internal and foreign forces."
- "maintaining the human rights of their members."

The "national guard" above is very important. It will start its existence during the federal period. It will not be a compulsory service, but an army of say 2500 elite men, made up of 1000 from the North and 1500 from the South. The numbers are not based on ethnic proportion because there is no need to! This sort of ratio would provide more trust and mixing up of the two communities, since their ultimate aim is to protect them. They will be paid professional soldiers trained to deal with any terrorist or anti-Republic activity. Applications will be invited from both sides and in the event of one side not providing enough to make up the numbers, they will be recruited from the other side.

During the transition period, this national guard can be stationed in an area of the British Bases offered by the British to be returned to Cypriots during the Annan plan.

Do the above and Cyprus Problem is no more!

[DT.]

The issue is a simple one. As s basis of an entire 2 part agreement with phase 1 being a federal bi zonal solution with extra protections for both communities and
phase 2 being a unitary state

if the agreement is signed as a whole and there is a pre-agreed timeline for the 2 phases gauranteed by the US and the EU then personally i would see no reason why we shouldn't lift the embargoes of trade under the federal unmbrella and to begin re-patriating some of the refugees.

So it looks like between the two of us, we have finally discovered the - solution to the Cyprus problem!

The RoC government makes a statement saying "TCs dissolve the TRNC and start calling themselves Northern Federal state of Cyprus. In return we'll call for trade embargoes to be lifted and immediate talks to start on the full definition and powers of this state, under Federal states of Cyprus Republic".

This being part of what you have just expressed above and the "pre-agreed time line" to be set for a fixed period. At the end of this period a new evaluation of the relationships between and functioning of the states is to be reviewed by an international (UN) panel who will make the final judgement on the reunification of the island. Their evaluations will be based on the criteria like:

- "maintaining demilitarisation",
- "total disarmament of civilians"
- "maintaining educational, anti-racist educational system",
- "controlling and eradicating fanatic groups against united Cyprus",
- "establishing a multilingual police force on both sides, geared to join up forces after unification.
- "maintaining a small but equal number of professional national guardsmen from both sides, educated and trained under one roof to protect Cyprus and its constitution against internal and foreign forces."
- "maintaining the human rights of their members."

The "national guard" above is very important. It will start its existence during the federal period. It will not be a compulsory service, but an army of say 2500 elite men, made up of 1000 from the North and 1500 from the South. The numbers are not based on ethnic proportion because there is no need to! This sort of ratio would provide more trust and mixing up of the two communities, since their ultimate aim is to protect them. They will be paid professional soldiers trained to deal with any terrorist or anti-Republic activity. Applications will be invited from both sides and in the event of one side not providing enough to make up the numbers, they will be recruited from the other side.

During the transition period, this national guard can be stationed in an area of the British Bases offered by the British to be returned to Cypriots during the Annan plan.

Do the above and Cyprus Problem is no more!

BigOz. Our only difference is that i'd like all this agreed and signed before any statements are made.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Even if the GCs were right, lets all think about this sensibly for a moment. Who is most likely to come to harm if the Turkish army pulled out today and the two communities decided to live as one with all the borders taken down and no restrictions of any kind. Does anyone realistically believe the small fanatic elements of TC population would be able to function or do anything to harm the GCs? Of course not!

It happend in the past. Look at the harm the TMT caused by keeping up tensions in the island. Look at the crimes they secretly commited against Turkish Cypriot civilians and then blamed those crimes on Greek Cypriots. Infact, in the inter-communal fighting in the 60's, almost as many Greek Cypriots died as Turkish Cypriots.

There is a continual misconception amongst Turkish Cypriots where they like to think they are always innocent victims.

[Pyrpolizer]

@BigOz & DT,

I would say people who mean well from both sides can easily be recognised, and those people generally put down good ideas most of which can easily be agreed by the other side. You two are obviously in this group. However BigOZ I am very sorry but I disagree with what you said that we misunderstand the TCs. There are quite a lot of TCs who want nothing else but partition or a confederation of 2 separate states at the maximum.And they want this to be guaranteed in eternity. We have a lot of examples in this very forum.

I only have 2 comments to add:
1)The problem with "trnc' is a)The name and b)the law on which is founded. An I am not talking about common law as for example life imprisonment of a rapist, or a fine for speed limit, but for basic laws of it's constitution. If it could change its law to Federal Cypriot state, according to EU aquis then 3/4 of the problem is gone.

2)Whatever institution is allowed to hold weapons in United federal Cyprus could be a source of instability. Even the police. Don't forget that the major source of instability in the 60's from the GC side was coming from the police itself as most GC policemen were ex-Eokas. Also once you create such force/s you cannot dismantled them, in fact they themselves might create troubles just to keep their jobs.
Imo the inherited danger of having Greek and Turkish forces staying here after a solution is enough risk already. And certainly they can guarantee security (if this is what they would be ordered to do i.e). Remember they will reduce in stages, in fact the anan Plan foresaw 19 years.

[DT.]

@BigOz & DT,

I would say people who mean well from both sides can easily be recognised, and those people generally put down good ideas most of which can easily be agreed by the other side. You two are obviously in this group. However BigOZ I am very sorry but I disagree with what you said that we misunderstand the TCs. There are quite a lot of TCs who want nothing else but partition or a confederation of 2 separate states at the maximum.And they want this to be guaranteed in eternity. We have a lot of examples in this very forum.

I only have 2 comments to add:
1)The problem with "trnc' is a)The name and b)the law on which is founded. An I am not talking about common law as for example life imprisonment of a rapist, or a fine for speed limit, but for basic laws of it's constitution. If it could change its law to Federal Cypriot state, according to EU aquis then 3/4 of the problem is gone.

2)Whatever institution is allowed to hold weapons in United federal Cyprus could be a source of instability. Even the police. Don't forget that the major source of instability in the 60's from the GC side was coming from the police itself as most GC policemen were ex-Eokas. Also once you create such force/s you cannot dismantled them, in fact they themselves might create troubles just to keep their jobs.
Imo the inherited danger of having Greek and Turkish forces staying here after a solution is enough risk already. And certainly they can guarantee security (if this is what they would be ordered to do i.e). Remember they will reduce in stages, in fact the anan Plan foresaw 19 years.

Pyro I never said we're solving it by closing our eyes to all the problems. I believe if you have agreement on principle by 2 individuals who have previously clashed a number of times on their positions is an excellent start. The setup and form of govt which is basically what we agreed on here is a huge chapter with a fine balance.

It would make sense that if both sides can have their concerns addressed by a timeline plan then on principle this is a godd step forward.

Now you can get onto other issues. After you've got principle agreement on the main points then you can discuss who will be armed and who won't.

[alexISS]

There are quite a lot of TCs who want nothing else but partition or a confederation of 2 separate states at the maximum.And they want this to be guaranteed in eternity.

Opinions change because people change, no matter how stubborn they seem to be. Even hardcore partitionists like Viewpoint would change their minds if they felt safe and saw that a better life awaits them in a unified Cyprus

[bigOz]

@BigOz & DT,
I would say people who mean well from both sides can easily be recognised, and those people generally put down good ideas most of which can easily be agreed by the other side. You two are obviously in this group. However BigOZ I am very sorry but I disagree with what you said that we misunderstand the TCs. There are quite a lot of TCs who want nothing else but partition or a confederation of 2 separate states at the maximum.And they want this to be guaranteed in eternity. We have a lot of examples in this very forum.

I only have 2 comments to add:
1)The problem with "trnc' is a)The name and b)the law on which is founded. An I am not talking about common law as for example life imprisonment of a rapist, or a fine for speed limit, but for basic laws of it's constitution. If it could change its law to Federal Cypriot state, according to EU aquis then 3/4 of the problem is gone.

2)Whatever institution is allowed to hold weapons in United federal Cyprus could be a source of instability. Even the police. Don't forget that the major source of instability in the 60's from the GC side was coming from the police itself as most GC policemen were ex-Eokas. Also once you create such force/s you cannot dismantled them, in fact they themselves might create troubles just to keep their jobs.
Imo the inherited danger of having Greek and Turkish forces staying here after a solution is enough risk already. And certainly they can guarantee security (if this is what they would be ordered to do i.e). Remember they will reduce in stages, in fact the anan Plan foresaw 19 years.

No one is asking (even Talat) for the Annan plan to continue as it was. I am sure there are definitely areas for improvement. If you ask me a maximum of 10 years is plenty for complete withdrawal and a review of a single Cyprus Republic. If the sides fail to achieve th edevelopments the international panel may consider a final extension of say another 3-4 years at the most, before threating both sides, they'll be thrown out of the EU if they do not mange to get their own side in order.

Who said there should be Greek and Turkish forces left on the island? They should both be withdrawn according to a time-table long before the end of the transition period. Why should the police carry guns? They can have armed response teams available in case of an armed robbery or something like, that but I see no reason for them to be armed at other times. The police in TRNC do not carry arms on them (only the civilian detectives do) - except in border posts probably.

As you rightly pointed out, there may well be some X-fanatic group in any government body - that is exactly why we need a transition period! Both sides can make genuine efforts to clear these and I do not think it is really impossible. These are mostly older people and the young can be educated to learn the new "Cypriot" way of thinking. The older will pass their "use by" date soon, so it is important the fresh blood that replace them do not carry on with the same mistaken beliefs.

Look at us in this forum Pyrpolizer. Me and DT started on the wrong foot, you and me had not agreed on many things, but it doesn't take too long to work out who means well and who is having a party at the expense of others. The reason many talk the same thing, but never understand what each other is saying is because things are constantly taken out of context and misinterpreted. More often than not, turning into a "mine is bigger than yours" argument and forgetting the issue on the table.

After a few jokes, once me and DT decided to have more respect to what the other is talking about and listen/understand fully before jumping to replies, look at the outcome! Perhaps if our leaders did the same instead of playing the actors on a stage, and got down to some constructive dialog they may even come up with a better solution than above.

I have not witnessed any TC in this forum who seriously insists on a partition rather than a united Cyprus. If that were true, why did they overwhelmingly vote YES to the Annan plan? OK so when we argue and things get frustrating, TCs will taunt the other side by stating recognition of TRNC or partition are the only alternatives left - but that is because they are unable to get their message through for what their real wishes are, and are often met with a barrage of abuse. I have said myself in one post "long live TRNC" and put up the TRNC flag in response to some stupid fanatic argument that was going on at the time! That does not mean I see partition as an ideal solution.

As for TRNC, I do not believe any TC will object to living in Northern Federal state of Cyprus, instead of TRNC, knowing they are a part of a nation where their security in future is not being undermined. We argue about these things but no one can show me any objection from any TC authority to any such proposal. Perhaps we should make some of our leaders read this thread!

[bigOz]

There are quite a lot of TCs who want nothing else but partition or a confederation of 2 separate states at the maximum.And they want this to be guaranteed in eternity.

Opinions change because people change, no matter how stubborn they seem to be. Even hardcore partitionists like Viewpoint would change their minds if they felt safe and saw that a better life awaits them in a unified Cyprus

Very true indeed! The best example being President Archbishop Makarios, originally the founder member of EOKA who gave up completely the idea of ENOSIS, and started to make genuine efforts to maintain a Republic only 5-6 years after the 1963 intercommunal fighting! OK so that may have spelled the beginning of the attacks egainst him and majority of the GCs on the island - but it still shows that if he could change his values in 5 years, so can anyone else within 10 years.