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The "RoC" was not the solution

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:00 pm

Kifeas wrote:
halil wrote:TCs are not a minority in Cyprus; they are the finding partners. GCs have agreed to this and signed the 1959 Agreements .


Can you quote the section of the 1960 agreements or the constitution that say the TCs are the founding partners?

As for them not being a minority in Cyprus, what does make a group of people that make up the 18% of the total? Does it make this group the majority of the total? Does it make the rest of the group, the 82%, to be the minority group? Is this what your English language dictionary says, that the smaller group is called the majority and the larger group the minority?

halil wrote:I want to hear some GCs say RoC has been occupied by the GCs since 1963,and this was not fair on the TCs.


The RoC is only a legal and a political entity; and not a territory, a house or a plot land, to be occupied by anyone! It exists only in relation to the recognition it has as a subject of international law! It is an intangible concept that exists only in writing!


As soon as you can show us where it says that the Greeks are the founding member then you will find it right next to it. Can you show us where. I expect total silence :roll:
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Postby bigOz » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:02 pm

I have patiently read the posts in this thread trying hard not to get involved with the "idiots of the village" - but I cannot help to bring couple of things to all the self appointed know-alls in this forum:

Kafenes! We all know how much the Armenians love Turks or TCs who may have an ancestry with them! Your example is pointless and proves nothing. Meanwhile those Armenians who remain in modern Turkey are worshipping in their churches and having all the democratic rights any other Turkish citizen has.

Pyrpolizer! Your opinions and assumption of a democratic evolvement with no violence (under the conditions atthe time) cannot be realistic, so we'll ignore that part of the discussion...

Pirates! Turkish constitution or any other international constitution does not define Kurds as minority because they are not! They are Turkish Citizens living in a Turkish Republic who are expected to respect the country they live in. What external forces have artificially injected into their brains and supplied them with means to start terrorist activities is irrelevant. Before them it was Armenians showing most of the region as a part of Greater Armenia! After the Armenian terrorism was killed off, Kurdish one appeared - this time with a map of fictional Kurdistan greatrly covering what was supposed to be Armenia beforehand! The situation in Cyprus cannot be likened to that of Kurds, or any other ethnic origin living anywhere else.

By the same token I could start talking about the Muslim Bosnians, who were smaller in numbers than Serbs or Croats and still got their own separate state in Bosnia!

Your definition of an ethnic minority refers to ethnic people other than the recognised ethnic group(s) making up that State! Native Indians in USA or S.America are not ethnic minoroties but Americans! White people of South Africa are not an ethnic minority but Africans! Hence, TCs are not an ethnic minority but a part and parcel of what describes a Cyprus Republic and a Cypriot citizen from day one!

Kifeas reply to iceman's question wins the prize for the best "deny and lie" award for GCs! :lol:

Finally Kifeas, seeing you know so much about the history can you please enlighten all us how during the declaration of a republic:
[qoute]...he GC one essentially forced, in the end, to co-sign those agreements and /or treaties...[/quote]
This was also expressed by anothe GC I believe when climing Makarios was forced to sign for a republic. Attention all those who often make fun of TC leadership: Is there any GC with balls to tell us right now, right here what forced Makarios to accept RoC in preference to ENOSIS? Or is this something else they do not teach you at school. :twisted:

Let me give you a tip! Disclosure of the activities of British Secret Service in Cyprus during the transition to Cyprus republic, and the subsequent BBC documentary showing all secret documents that had been under lock and key for the past 40+ years! I am sure many GCs living in London had seen it - I shall wait for a GC to enlighten everyone on that!

Also what is all this about GCs being forced into a republic? Is everyone now admitting to supporting ENOSIS or EOKA? If that is the case why are we wasting our time discussing anything?
:roll:
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Postby zan » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:10 pm

G

DECLARATION MADE BY THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GREEK-CYPRIOT COMMUNITY ON FEBRUARY 19, 1959
Archbishop Makarios, representing the Greek Cypriot Community, having examined the documents concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus drawn up and approved by the Heads of the Governments of Greece and Turkey in Zurich on February 11, 1959 and the declarations made by the Government of the United Kingdom, and by the Foreign Ministers of Greece and Turkey on February 17, 1959 declares that he accepts the documents and declarations as the agreed foundation for the final settlement of the problem of Cyprus.

DECLARATION MADE BY THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE TURKISH-CYPRIOT COMMUNITY ON FEBRUARY 19, 1959 Dr. Kutchuk, representing the Turkish Cypriot Community, having examined the documents concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus drawn up and approved by the Heads of the Governments of Greece and Turkey in Zurich on February 11, 1959, and the declarations made by the Government of the United Kingdom, and by the Foreign Ministers of Greece and Turkey on February 17, 1959, declares that he accepts the documents and declarations as the agreed foundation for the final settlement of the problem of Cyprus.
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Re: The "RoC" was not the solution

Postby zan » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:35 pm

zan wrote:People here seem to have come under the delusion that because the "RoC" was allowed into the EU that that is the solution to the problem. This cannot be further than the truth. The truth is that the Annan Plan was the solution, all be it flawed, but that was the solution that was on the table and not the "RoC". We are still looking for a solution and the "RoC" wil have to go as part of that solution.


Still no response to the question though....As I ecpected.
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Postby Murataga » Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Kifeas wrote:Iceman, let me help you and the rest of the TCs from one very common misconception they have, that we all get to read quite often.

Essentially, the founding parties of the 1960 agreements that established the RoC are neither the GCs and the TCs, nor the people of Cyprus as such! This is unlike the case in every other democratic and independed state’s constitution, and unlike the 1948 universal declaration of human rights, the UN declaration of people’s self-determination and the UN Charter! That is why those agreements were essentially by-passed by the above universal (higher) treaties and the UN Charter (the highest treaty of all,) as soon as Cyprus was accepted as a member of the UN and signed the UN Charter; even though they (1960 agreements) were the cause of the initial coming into existence of the RoC!

The founding parties of the RoC, the inaugurators so to say, are the UK, Greece and Turkey! Not the people of Cyprus, either as a whole or as two separate communities! Nowhere does it explicitly say in these agreements that the founders or the founding partners or the founding members are the GC community and the TC community. It may be claimed by way of interpretation of the spirit of those agreements that, because the two communities were asked -the GC one essentially forced, in the end, to co-sign those agreements and /or treaties, that they are the founders or co-founders! I personally disagree with such an approach, and the above basis for such an interpretation is not sufficient!

For two to be called the founding partners, or the co-founders, first of all they have to be the ones doing the negotiating in their free will, they have to be the ones that conclude the agreement in their free will, besides the signing of it by them in their free will! Such a thing did not occur in the case of Cyprus! Secondly, besides the above, the agreement itself must stipulate in it that the case is one of a partnership between the two (stipulated) co-founders, something that is also missing from those agreements or from the constitution itself! Consequently, the issue is one of mere interpretation!

You ask me what the meaning of those articles in the constitution is, that refer to a GC president and a TC vice-president, etc. You would like to interpret them as an indication that the founders of the RoC were the GC and the TC communities! I on the other hand interpret them as a mere arrangement on how to manage the government or rule the country!


Congratulations and thank you! You have just signed your confession of the invalidity of your so-called government as she claims to abide and operate by those Agreements establishing the RoC which you have found unacceptable. We believe that those Agreements are no longer valid aswell (obviously for different reasons), hence, your claims of being RoC are illegal in law and untrue in reality.

I must add of course that the irrational reasoning in your conclusions are questionable in terms of universal ethics and void in legal terms. Let me explain why...

The U.N. charter did not by-pass the Agreements as Cyprus became a member in 1960 of U.N., as it would be devoid to do so because the RoC claimed she was operating on those terms. However, the Charter did bring about Resolution 2077 on December of 1965 after Turkey’s warning of intervention if constitutional order and the rights/security of the TCs were not restored in Cyprus. The most important aspect of this resolution that made it stand separate from any other was that it arguably undermined the Treaty of Guarantee (more specifically Article IV) and announced that it: “Calls upon all States, in conformity with their obligations under the Charter, and in particular Article 2, paragraphs 1 and 4, to respect the sovereignty, unity, independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Cyprus and to refrain from any intervention directed against it…”. After this, Turkey halted intervention; however, the GC side breached it by calling in/harboring the Greek Army on the island by the thousands. It is also extremely important to underline that although the GC leadership has always been quite passionate about removing the right of intervention in the Treaty of Guarantee, the so called president of the RoC tried to invoke the Treaty of Guarantee as late as 1983 (at the time of the declaration of TRCN statehood) and called on the British government to intervene under the terms of that Treaty's Article IV.

The Agreements being disputed bear the signature of the designated GC leader, period. The typical GC argument of “we signed them because it was the best option at the time, and our intention was to convert them into a format more favorable to our position despite the disapproval of other co-signatories” is ethically flawed to say the least and bears no binding value. You may argue the circumstances of how your leader signed it, but never the less he has signed them and was perfectly alright with occupying the seat of President in the 3 years that followed (and as so-called in the following 14 years) which was rewarded/guaranteed to him by those very Agreements.

Frankly, the nametag you wish to put for the relationship/affairs of the two communities according to the Agreements is both irrelevant and inconsequential. The bottom line is that according to these agreements the two communities were: (1) fully autonomous in their communal affairs (2) assigned reserved representation in the administration of the overall state affairs, and (3) the TC leadership had a reserved vice-president seat where he/she could veto the president as he/she saw fit, period. This is neither subject to your interpretation nor judgment. The GC leadership tried to breach these with the proposed 13 Articles and orchestrated armed hostilities against the other signatory on the island for refusing them and ENOSIS.

In conclusion, your side signed these agreements in front of the whole world and was responsible according to law; consequently:

1) If you had found these terms unacceptable than you should not have signed an agreement which you did not intend to honor in the first place.
2) If you signed an agreement with the intent of eventually dishonoring it, than you have no right to complain about the other community's most inalienable right to take matters into her hands in determining her own fate in the island (especially as victims of armed hostilities).
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Postby MR-from-NG » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:33 pm

Murataga wrote:
Kifeas wrote:Iceman, let me help you and the rest of the TCs from one very common misconception they have, that we all get to read quite often.

Essentially, the founding parties of the 1960 agreements that established the RoC are neither the GCs and the TCs, nor the people of Cyprus as such! This is unlike the case in every other democratic and independed state’s constitution, and unlike the 1948 universal declaration of human rights, the UN declaration of people’s self-determination and the UN Charter! That is why those agreements were essentially by-passed by the above universal (higher) treaties and the UN Charter (the highest treaty of all,) as soon as Cyprus was accepted as a member of the UN and signed the UN Charter; even though they (1960 agreements) were the cause of the initial coming into existence of the RoC!

The founding parties of the RoC, the inaugurators so to say, are the UK, Greece and Turkey! Not the people of Cyprus, either as a whole or as two separate communities! Nowhere does it explicitly say in these agreements that the founders or the founding partners or the founding members are the GC community and the TC community. It may be claimed by way of interpretation of the spirit of those agreements that, because the two communities were asked -the GC one essentially forced, in the end, to co-sign those agreements and /or treaties, that they are the founders or co-founders! I personally disagree with such an approach, and the above basis for such an interpretation is not sufficient!

For two to be called the founding partners, or the co-founders, first of all they have to be the ones doing the negotiating in their free will, they have to be the ones that conclude the agreement in their free will, besides the signing of it by them in their free will! Such a thing did not occur in the case of Cyprus! Secondly, besides the above, the agreement itself must stipulate in it that the case is one of a partnership between the two (stipulated) co-founders, something that is also missing from those agreements or from the constitution itself! Consequently, the issue is one of mere interpretation!

You ask me what the meaning of those articles in the constitution is, that refer to a GC president and a TC vice-president, etc. You would like to interpret them as an indication that the founders of the RoC were the GC and the TC communities! I on the other hand interpret them as a mere arrangement on how to manage the government or rule the country!


Congratulations and thank you! You have just signed your confession of the invalidity of your so-called government as she claims to abide and operate by those Agreements establishing the RoC which you have found unacceptable. We believe that those Agreements are no longer valid aswell (obviously for different reasons), hence, your claims of being RoC are illegal in law and untrue in reality.

I must add of course that the irrational reasoning in your conclusions are questionable in terms of universal ethics and void in legal terms. Let me explain why...

The U.N. charter did not by-pass the Agreements as Cyprus became a member in 1960 of U.N., as it would be devoid to do so because the RoC claimed she was operating on those terms. However, the Charter did bring about Resolution 2077 on December of 1965 after Turkey’s warning of intervention if constitutional order and the rights/security of the TCs were not restored in Cyprus. The most important aspect of this resolution that made it stand separate from any other was that it arguably undermined the Treaty of Guarantee (more specifically Article IV) and announced that it: “Calls upon all States, in conformity with their obligations under the Charter, and in particular Article 2, paragraphs 1 and 4, to respect the sovereignty, unity, independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Cyprus and to refrain from any intervention directed against it…”. After this, Turkey halted intervention; however, the GC side breached it by calling in/harboring the Greek Army on the island by the thousands. It is also extremely important to underline that although the GC leadership has always been quite passionate about removing the right of intervention in the Treaty of Guarantee, the so called president of the RoC tried to invoke the Treaty of Guarantee as late as 1983 (at the time of the declaration of TRCN statehood) and called on the British government to intervene under the terms of that Treaty's Article IV.

The Agreements being disputed bear the signature of the designated GC leader, period. The typical GC argument of “we signed them because it was the best option at the time, and our intention was to convert them into a format more favorable to our position despite the disapproval of other co-signatories” is ethically flawed to say the least and bears no binding value. You may argue the circumstances of how your leader signed it, but never the less he has signed them and was perfectly alright with occupying the seat of President in the 3 years that followed (and as so-called in the following 14 years) which was rewarded/guaranteed to him by those very Agreements.

Frankly, the nametag you wish to put for the relationship/affairs of the two communities according to the Agreements is both irrelevant and inconsequential. The bottom line is that according to these agreements the two communities were: (1) fully autonomous in their communal affairs (2) assigned reserved representation in the administration of the overall state affairs, and (3) the TC leadership had a reserved vice-president seat where he/she could veto the president as he/she saw fit, period. This is neither subject to your interpretation nor judgment. The GC leadership tried to breach these with the proposed 13 Articles and orchestrated armed hostilities against the other signatory on the island for refusing them and ENOSIS.

In conclusion, your side signed these agreements in front of the whole world and was responsible according to law; consequently:

1) If you had found these terms unacceptable than you should not have signed an agreement which you did not intend to honor in the first place.
2) If you signed an agreement with the intent of eventually dishonoring it, than you have no right to complain about the other community's most inalienable right to take matters into her hands in determining her own fate in the island (especially as victims of armed hostilities).


GC politics can never be trusted. They always have their own hidden agendas. Dubious and unscrupulous to say the least.
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Postby miltiades » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:58 pm

Well guys , in my Cyprus I do not see majorities or minorities only Cypriots.
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Postby denizaksulu » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:12 pm

To all: If the GCs can tear up the Cyprus Constitution because the way they feel, Let Turke y do the same with the Treaty of Lausanne. Greece has broken the treaty so many times. Let Turkey revoke the treaty where it gave up its rights over the island of Cyprus. The GCs will love that for sure. :wink:
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Postby the_snake_and_the_crane » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:53 pm

Just another excuse for Turks to legalise ethnic cleansing and stealing isnt it. Thats the most consistant thing they have done in their history.
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Re: The "RoC" was not the solution

Postby relatino » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:13 pm

zan wrote:People here seem to have come under the delusion that because the "RoC" was allowed into the EU that that is the solution to the problem. This cannot be further than the truth. The truth is that the Annan Plan was the solution, all be it flawed, but that was the solution that was on the table and not the "RoC". We are still looking for a solution and the "RoC" wil have to go as part of that solution.



Well the TCs have their own opinion and they will always ask for more and for what they think is "right". What worries me about all this is the precedent that the "TRNC" can set. How many years have the "TCs" in Cyprus? What happened here could happen in any country? Or is it just the price a small country had to pay to not spoil the militar relations of the bigger powers? If in let's say 200 years the "TGs" in Germany want to form a "TRNG" would that be ok? Or would they be send back packing to Anatolia? Or would they be granted with veto powers, bigger voting % or make their language official to appease them? I would really apreciate if somebody could answer these questions. Thanx
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