Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Armenians, Maronites and Latins are not minorities either according to what you posted simply because the word "minority" is not written However do you know that an Armenian could become president of Cyprus but a Turkish Cypriot could become at max a vice president? How does that make you "higher" and "founding father"?

[Pyrpolizer]

People here seem to have come under the delusion that because the "RoC" was allowed into the EU that that is the solution to the problem. This cannot be further than the truth. The truth is that the Annan Plan was the solution, all be it flawed, but that was the solution that was on the table and not the "RoC". We are still looking for a solution and the "RoC" wil have to go as part of that solution.

Take Annan plan and change everywhere in the text the word Turkish Cypriots with the word Kurds. Can Turkey approve such a plan? Why Greeks to accept it?

EPSILON
You need to read some more history books before you can make comments (preferably not in Greek)
Show me where in the Constitution of Republic of Turkey the Kurds are a founding member of the republic..How can you compare Kurds with TC's?

But that (the part that says the TCs are founding members) WAS THE ROC iceman, which Zan claims was not the solution!

Or was it?

[iceman]

Armenians, Maronites and Latins are not minorities either according to what you posted simply because the word "minority" is not written However do you know that an Armenian could become president of Cyprus but a Turkish Cypriot could become at max a vice president? How does that make you "higher" and "founding father"?

Show me where in the constitution it says Turkish Cypriots are a minority..
How do you explain the fact that the constitution defines the citizens of Cyprus as Greek & Turkish communities and grants them rights accordingly in every paragraph?

[kafenes]

Thought you guys might find this interesting. This is just for your info.

A referendum was held in 1960 and 1077 Cypriot Armenians voted for the Greek community while 5 for the Turkish.


Armenians
Maronites
Latins

Nicosia/In favor of Greek Com.
737
281
180

Nicosia/In favor of Turkish Com.
4
0
1

Limassol/In favor of Greek Com.
69
35
58

Limassol/In favor of Turkish Com.
0
0
0

Famagusta/In favor of Greek Com.
64
18
15

Famagusta/In favor of Turkish Com.
0
0
0

Larnaca/In favor of Greek Com.
203
8
57

Larnaca/In favor of Turkish Com.
1
0
0

Kyrenia/In favor of Greek Com.
4
704
12

Kyrenia/In favor of Turkish Com.
0
0
0

Total for Greek Community 1077 1046 322
Total for Turkish Community 5 0 1

Source: Dr.A.Ashdjian

[Kifeas]

Iceman, I do not have much time to go over an entire page to find out just a sentence, and yet not being able to find it. Can you please quote to me only the section which says the the TCs are the founding members or partners?

Maybe you care to tell me who actually was the founder of the ROC..
Also while you are at it please explain to me what you understand from

ARTICLE 1
The State of Cyprus is an independent and sovereign Republic with a presidential regime, the President being Greek and the Vice­President being Turk elected by the Greek and the Turkish Communities of Cyprus respectively as hereinafter in this Constitution provided

Also,if you want to know about minorities status in the Constitution read

Introduction
PART III
NOTES ON DOCUMENTS ANNEXED
THE SMALLER RELIGIOUS GROUPS

29. The Armenians, Maronites and Latins constitute three separate religious groups in the island. A statement by Her Majesty's Government on constitutional safeguards for these groups in accordance with paragraph B (2) (i) of the United Kingdom Declaration made at the London Conference of February, 1959 (Document III of Cmnd. 679) is at Appendix E to this Paper. This statement has been accepted by Archbishop Makarios and Dr. Kutchuk.


I wonder why Turkish Cypriots were not listed in the above paragraph...dont you??

Iceman, let me help you and the rest of the TCs from one very common misconception they have, that we all get to read quite often.

Essentially, the founding parties of the 1960 agreements that established the RoC are neither the GCs and the TCs, nor the people of Cyprus as such! This is unlike the case in every other democratic and independed state’s constitution, and unlike the 1948 universal declaration of human rights, the UN declaration of people’s self-determination and the UN Charter! That is why those agreements were essentially by-passed by the above universal (higher) treaties and the UN Charter (the highest treaty of all,) as soon as Cyprus was accepted as a member of the UN and signed the UN Charter; even though they (1960 agreements) were the cause of the initial coming into existence of the RoC!

The founding parties of the RoC, the inaugurators so to say, are the UK, Greece and Turkey! Not the people of Cyprus, either as a whole or as two separate communities! Nowhere does it explicitly say in these agreements that the founders or the founding partners or the founding members are the GC community and the TC community. It may be claimed by way of interpretation of the spirit of those agreements that, because the two communities were asked -the GC one essentially forced, in the end, to co-sign those agreements and /or treaties, that they are the founders or co-founders! I personally disagree with such an approach, and the above basis for such an interpretation is not sufficient!

For two to be called the founding partners, or the co-founders, first of all they have to be the ones doing the negotiating in their free will, they have to be the ones that conclude the agreement in their free will, besides the signing of it by them in their free will! Such a thing did not occur in the case of Cyprus! Secondly, besides the above, the agreement itself must stipulate in it that the case is one of a partnership between the two (stipulated) co-founders, something that is also missing from those agreements or from the constitution itself! Consequently, the issue is one of mere interpretation!

You ask me what the meaning of those articles in the constitution is, that refer to a GC president and a TC vice-president, etc. You would like to interpret them as an indication that the founders of the RoC were the GC and the TC communities! I on the other hand interpret them as a mere arrangement on how to manage the government or rule the country!

[iceman]

The founding parties of the RoC, the inaugurators so to say, are the UK, Greece and Turkey!

I bet it hurts you to admit that.!!
Would you care to explain to me also why Turkey was one of the founding parties then?

[Kifeas]

The founding parties of the RoC, the inaugurators so to say, are the UK, Greece and Turkey!

I bet it hurts you to admit that.!!
Would you care to explain to me also why Turkey was one of the founding parties then?

Because it was illegitimately brought in by the UK, together with Greece, in order to decide together the future of the people of Cyprus! For me personally but also for almost all international law and human rights scholars and expert lawyers, those agreements were illegitimately drafted and adopted, and were essentially eradicated by the fact that they contradicted with the Universal declaration of human rights, the right of people's self determination and the UN Charter, and the fact that Cyprus was recognized and accepted by the UN as an independed member of it!

I do not know how right or relevant is the example, but it is like your parents that get married, conceive you and then give you birth, but as soon as you are born you are a completely separate person and you no longer belong to them or bound by the terms under which they conceived you! You are free to adopt any religion you wish, regardless of the one they baptized you into, change your name, even change you sex nowadays, without them having the right to prohibit you from doing so!

[Pyrpolizer]

I tend to agree more with Kifeas in here with a slight variation.
Imo the founders were the British ONLY. The Colony of Cyprus was the Government before the RoC. It had offices, buildings, hospitals, courts, everything. When the British decided to leave they just gave the administration to the locals, through an agreement with Greece Turkey and the major local communities. If it weren't for securing their bases they would have left and abandon everything to it's fate. Makarios went into the BRITISH presidential Palace which still until today has the British emblems at the door. Basically it was passing over of authority to the locals. The locals actually founded nothing.

Now suppose the British had left and abandoned everything to it's fate. What could have happened (assuming everything evolved democratically with no violence). Imo we would have a cantonal system like in switzerland with multiple local administrations. Even the Maronites would have their local administration around the 5 villages. That would certainly make all of us "founding partners" of the state.

Btw does anybody know where the Vice President was settled in 1960? Was it in the same building as Makarios?

[Piratis]

Armenians, Maronites and Latins are not minorities either according to what you posted simply because the word "minority" is not written However do you know that an Armenian could become president of Cyprus but a Turkish Cypriot could become at max a vice president? How does that make you "higher" and "founding father"?

Show me where in the constitution it says Turkish Cypriots are a minority..
How do you explain the fact that the constitution defines the citizens of Cyprus as Greek & Turkish communities and grants them rights accordingly in every paragraph?

Can you show me where the Turkish constitution defines Kurds as a minority?

Armenians, Latins and Maronites are not called minorities in the constitution either. Does it mean they are not? Does it mean they can also claim a big chunk of Cyprus just for themselves by ethnically cleansing others??

TCs are a minority by definition. It is like telling me that because in your passport it doesn't say that you are a "mammal" it means that you are not.

Here is the definition of a minority:

"a group which is smaller in number than the rest of the population of a State, whose members have ethnic, religious or linguistic features different from those of the rest of the population, and are guided, if only implicitly, by the will to safeguard their culture, traditions, religion or language. Any group coming within the terms of this definition shall be treated as an ethnic, religious or linguistic minority. To belong to a minority shall be a matter of individual choice". (The definition comes from Skutnabb-Kangas & Phillipson 1994a: 107, Note 2, and is based on her reformulation of the definition by the Council of Europe Commission for Democracy through Law (91) 7, Art. 2).

Does the definition talk about presidents and vice presidents, power sharing etc? You are a minority because you are the 18%, it is as simple as that. Denying this is the same as denying that 1+1 = 2 or more specifically that 82 is greater than 18.

In any case, as Kifeas said, you can interpret it any way you want. No problem. Take what the constitution gives you (e.g. your vice president), stop keeping illegally what you have no right to keep (e.g. our land), and beyond that you can call yourselves as the "Chosen ones" if you like to. No problem.

[Get Real!]

Thought you guys might find this interesting. This is just for your info.

A referendum was held in 1960 and 1077 Cypriot Armenians voted for the Greek community while 5 for the Turkish.

Thanks for the stats Kafene.

Being a "minority" in any given country is NOT about religion, colour, language, or culture, but DIRECTION. One can swim along WITH the flow or AGAINST it. Those against are the minority.

The Armenian community of Cyprus where always tiny in number yet huge in survival and prosperity because they always ensured they belonged to the MAJORITY by swimming along with the flow of Cyprus. Not only were they smart enough to help themselves but also their country.

Paradoxically we see Turkish Cypriots as a minority but not so with Armenian Cypriots who are so fewer in number!