Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

BigOz

1950 Makarios III becomes Archbishop; petition for enosis in churches signed by 96-97% .

Just a quick observation... you need to make clear that when the referendum took place Makarios II was Archbishop.

[zan]

emm.... ok

as usual, this chronology is important in what it sais, and what it does not say.

so for example , it is right to say that during the frankish period there was "repression of Orthodox Church" , and that during the ottoman period there was "restoration of Greek Orthodox church by the Ottoman Turks".

this is sth which it is terribly flawed, though....despite it being "factually correct"

attention is paid on the right of the church and not the rights of the people.
why should i care if the greek orthodox church was restored ? isnt it more important to inform me how many gcs perished during the ottoman invasion, instead of informing me about the restoration of the g.o. church ?

the fact that the millets were given cultural rights, doesnot mean that the life of the millets was fine, or that there was no oppresion, or no discrimination between christian and muslim subjects etc etc
besides restoring the rights of the church didnot necessarily helped gcs. often they revolted against their tax-collecting church.... at times christians and muslims in cyprus revolted together against high taxes from the high gate.


this is sth that is often part of turkish education. "the ottoman empire granted cultural rights". true.... but when nothing else is said , the conclusion is often reached "everything was good for everyone in the ottoman empire... and these ungrateful people later on revolted".

the ottoman empire was precisely that: "an empire" , and too often it acted as one - namely with excessive bruttality.

dont get me wrong, here.... the greek (bulgarian, armenian serb etc) education is no better. they completely ignore the cultural rights, and concentrate mainly on oppresion.


........
the same can be said about the whole chronology. i could have said more about other periods, but now i dont have the time...
chronologies are simply too short.

and besides, the whole point about history , is not the facts - it is how one interprets those facts.

You are right in saying that it is what is not said rather than what is said on these issues and the fact that they were brutal times and that is the way things happened is not said. But what happens in our own life time is even more interesting.Here is what Makarios said about taxing.

O.F.: And is it true that you deprived them of many constitutional privileges, Beatitude? M.: I deprived them of nothing. I simply complained about those privileges because they only served to hamper the functioning of the state. The Constitution provides that they be represented in the government at the ratio of thirty percent. And very often the Turkish Cypriots didn't have people capable of filling that thirty percent. There was, for example, a post that I could have been filled by an intelligent Greek and it had to be given to an illiterate Turk just because he was a Turk. Once they voted against taxes. I tried to explain to them that a state can't survive if the citizens don't pay taxes, and they refused anyway. So I forced them to pay all the same. Was that an abuse? Another time, when I was about to go to Belgrade for the conference of nonaligned countries, Mr. Denktash tried to stop me from going by exercising his veto power. I told him, "Exercise it all you like. I'm going just the same." Was that an abuse?'

[bigOz]

This thread has again being turned into a circus by our friends from the South!

The original post, IF ANYONE BOTHERS TO REALLY READ IT, expresses certain events in recent history as to why GCs and TCs became enemies killing each other. It is not one sided and actually shows killings by both communities etc.

Epsilon and Pirates have charasterically shot off in a different direction again trying to convinvce us that original occupants of Cyprus are Greek but nothing else!

We have hed these conversations in other threads a million times and got nowhere! Until and unless you give up all the crap about who was where first and whose divine right it is to claim rights to an island 3-5000 years later, there is no point in discussing anything and we should call it a day!

Only by finding out the historic reasons as to why GCs and TCs became enemies and started to kill each other (not Ottomans and Cypriots, not Hitites and Assyrians or Egyptians, not even Romans, Lusignans etc), we may both be able to understand why either side cannot trust each other fully to live under a same roof.

Once you define that, you can then go about finding a remedy to get rid of the disease(s) that caused the infection. Once you do that then there may be a real possibility of getting the two communities live under a single Cypriot identity.

The current situation is like a man suffering from leukemia, and he is being prescribed "cough-syrup" as a remedy. The bastard is dying but no one cares to look into what he is really suffering from.

IS THAT REALLY TOO HARD TO UNDERSTANT? WTF are we arguing about here?

[Piratis]

My friend, you created this thread to find out "the historic reasons as to why GCs and TCs became enemies", so I told you what is obvious.

The Turks attacked our island, killed 10s of thousands of us, oppressed us for centuries, massacred us every time we revolted = we became enemies. What more do you want?

What I really like is that the TCs say that they have 500 years of history on this island, but when it is about the crimes they say "Oh, but those where the Ottomans, not TCs". So choose my friend, are TCs those same Turks that attacked, killed us and oppressed us for 3 centuries and therefore they can claim that they have a close to 500 year history on this island, or TCs are some others, who appeared later on and have nothing to do with those invadors and therefore their history in Cyprus can not be more than 130 years.

We were enemies in the past and we are enemies today. But we don't have to continue to be. All you have to do is to finally show some respect and stop the crimes and illegalities against us and accept that a solution can only be one where the human and legal rights of ALL are respected.

[bigOz]

My friend, you created this thread to find out "the historic reasons as to why GCs and TCs became enemies", so I told you what is obvious.

The Turks attacked our island, killed 10s of thousands of us, oppressed us for centuries, massacred us every time we revolted = we became enemies. What more do you want?

What I really like is that the TCs say that they have 500 years of history on this island, but when it is about the crimes they say "Oh, but those where the Ottomans, not TCs". So choose my friend, are TCs those same Turks that attacked, killed us and oppressed us for 3 centuries and therefore they can claim that they have a close to 500 year history on this island, or TCs are some others, who appeared later on and have nothing to do with those invadors and therefore their history in Cyprus can not be more than 130 years.

We were enemies in the past and we are enemies today. But we don't have to continue to be. All you have to do is to finally show some respect and stop the crimes and illegalities against us and accept that a solution can only be one where the human and legal rights of ALL are respected.

You are totally wrong in above because:

- TCs and GCs never attcked or killed each other during the time they existed together under Ottoman or British rule using the thousands of years of Cyprus history of Cyprus as an excuse!

- On the contrary, history shows TCs and GCs happily co-existed until terorist activities by EOKA started in mid 1950s and TCs were recruited as auxillary police by the British to fight them. Plus the subsequent formation of TMT opposing union with Greece.

- The above is when the seeds of real hatred were planted and grew into plants in th efollowing years bearing fruits of violence and more killings etc.

As for Ottomans, I may be wrong and please correct me, but you come across as a young man with limited historical knowledge. Perhaps you are older with very little knowledge but I'd like to think it is the former.

THE OTTOMAN ARMY DOING THE KILLINGS IN CYPRUS OR ANYWHERE ELSE BY 1571 WAS NOT NECESSARILY TURKISH ARMY - IT PROBABLY HAD MORE GREEKS THAN TURKS IN IT!

After capture of Constantinople and collapse of Byzantine Empire Ottomans recruited young Christian boys from occupied areas such as Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia as JENISSARIES that made the bulk of the elite fighting force of the army.

Ottomans presided over a large area ruled by Turkish Sultans but made up of a very mixed culture and an army that was not necessarily Turkish. Below is the map of area controlled by ottomans around 1571:


There is no historic proof that TCs (who also suffered from and rebelled against Ottoman taxation) had any animosity against GCs and vice versa, because of any prior clashes between empires. Hence your examples and claims are totally groundless!

[Piratis]

BigOz, if TCs come out and say "We are not really Turkish. We are just Cypriots that became Muslims during the Ottoman rule so we will be treated better by the Ottomans", then I can accept some of your arguments. However TCs do not accept that they are just Muslim Cypriots, but instead they define themselves as Turkish. So you have to decide if your ancestors were those Ottoman invadors or not.

[bigOz]

BigOz, if TCs come out and say "We are not really Turkish. We are just Cypriots that became Muslims during the Ottoman rule so we will be treated better by the Ottomans", then I can accept some of your arguments. However TCs do not accept that they are just Muslim Cypriots, but instead they define themselves as Turkish. So you have to decide if your ancestors were those Ottoman invadors or not.

Piratis! you are again confusing your flawed perception of what TCs based on false evaluations by some other GCs in this forum.

You cannot show me one TC in this forum who denies being a Cypriot or claims to be Turkish first! We are perfectly happy to accept we are only "Muslim Cypriots" providing the GCs will do the same and accept being "Christian Cypriots". Will they?

From what I see in some of the posts in this forum, there are those who even argue with other GCs about their Greekness and Greek ancestry!

The truth is Cyprus has been the biggest whore of Mediterranean! Every Empire that used it as a whore left something behind and its archeology proves that. So in recent times it was the Hellens, Romans, Byzantines, Venetians and Ottomans - so what? We are the bastards of a very mixed breed left behind by all these over thousands of years.

OK so we stuck to Greek Orthodox and Muslim religions that have defined our ethnic preference when it came to origin, but over the 300 year rule of Ottomans and 100 years of British rule there had been many mixed marriages between GCs and TCs. Even with black North Africans who were once working for the Ottomans in Cyprus, or the Arabs who settled here from Middle Esat. In Kyrenia during 1963 we had two neighbours - one Greek married to a Lebanese and one Turkish woman with a Jordanian husband. We had a black cleaner who was married to a Turkish man, and the Jewish lady who was teaching me English was married to a Greek. The Greek Church in the Turkish part (still standing) had a regular Greek lady as the attendant, married to a Turk and had a son. I have a friend who has just returned to Cyprus whose TC mother and sister are living in TRNC but whose late father was Greek!

These are just the few examples only I can think of at the moment, there must be thousands who fit that criteria. So what's the big deal? TCs persistent demands for security and being granted some kind of guarantee for protection, allowed some breathing space for economic improvement, are responded by some idiots who move on to say "You give our land back first, get rid of the Turkish army in the North first, we have everything you have nothing so why should we share unless we'll have everyone recognise Cyprus as a Greek island" and so on...

Anyone who objects to the above mentality and asks GCs to get their priorities right, are labelled as sucking up to Turkey or partitionists. I'll ask you one final question and I will probably not get an answer (as always):

Do you thing land and property is more important, or security/safety for yourself, your family and your children. Just think about that, if you do not wish to answer, and you might see where the TCs are coming from...

[Piratis]

We are perfectly happy to accept we are only "Muslim Cypriots" providing the GCs will do the same and accept being "Christian Cypriots". Will they?

So what you are depends on what GCs say they are? (by the way, Greeks existed on this island long before Christianity, and personally I am not even Christian)

The truth is Cyprus has been the biggest whore of Mediterranean! Every Empire that used it as a whore left something behind and its archeology proves that. So in recent times it was the Hellens, Romans, Byzantines, Venetians and Ottomans - so what? We are the bastards of a very mixed breed left behind by all these over thousands of years.

In that case then why do you insist that Cypriots should be separated into groups? Why you do not accept to have one united country with equal Cypriot citizens, one person one vote, and no kind of discriminations?

Do you thing land and property is more important, or security/safety for yourself, your family and your children.

Whats more important for you? Seeing that you are the 18% and you illegally occupy the 37% of land it is apparent that you prefer to keep the land rather than having peace.

[Viewpoint]

We are perfectly happy to accept we are only "Muslim Cypriots" providing the GCs will do the same and accept being "Christian Cypriots". Will they?

So what you are depends on what GCs say they are? (by the way, Greeks existed on this island long before Christianity, and personally I am not even Christian)

The truth is Cyprus has been the biggest whore of Mediterranean! Every Empire that used it as a whore left something behind and its archeology proves that. So in recent times it was the Hellens, Romans, Byzantines, Venetians and Ottomans - so what? We are the bastards of a very mixed breed left behind by all these over thousands of years.

In that case then why do you insist that Cypriots should be separated into groups? Why you do not accept to have one united country with equal Cypriot citizens, one person one vote, and no kind of discriminations?

Do you thing land and property is more important, or security/safety for yourself, your family and your children.

Whats more important for you? Seeing that you are the 18% and you illegally occupy the 37% of land it is apparent that you prefer to keep the land rather than having peace.

With 80% of the population being GCs can you imagine what a united Cyprus would be like for us with no safe guards, everywhere would be Greek. How do you think we would feel? going about our daily lives and being ruled by GCs. This is our worst nightmare. Man you can have the land back thats the last of our worries just tell us why you do not want to live in a TC state?

[zan]

We are perfectly happy to accept we are only "Muslim Cypriots" providing the GCs will do the same and accept being "Christian Cypriots". Will they?

So what you are depends on what GCs say they are? (by the way, Greeks existed on this island long before Christianity, and personally I am not even Christian)

The truth is Cyprus has been the biggest whore of Mediterranean! Every Empire that used it as a whore left something behind and its archeology proves that. So in recent times it was the Hellens, Romans, Byzantines, Venetians and Ottomans - so what? We are the bastards of a very mixed breed left behind by all these over thousands of years.

In that case then why do you insist that Cypriots should be separated into groups? Why you do not accept to have one united country with equal Cypriot citizens, one person one vote, and no kind of discriminations?

Do you thing land and property is more important, or security/safety for yourself, your family and your children.

Whats more important for you? Seeing that you are the 18% and you illegally occupy the 37% of land it is apparent that you prefer to keep the land rather than having peace.

We have peace........