Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

I have been away for a while. I am happy to say that I am glad that finally we have a decent discussion in the forum without all the swearing and name calling.

Now back to the subject...I think that the settlers issue is one that the GCs are prepared to make some concessions in terms of numbers staying. Actually what Bir said earlier that all settlers that married with TCs plus a PRE-SET number of families that have been living in Cyprus for many years can be allowed to stay provided that they either empty the properties handed out to them or at least pay the real owner the current price of the property.
So for example if there are 15,000 settlers in mixed marriages then an additional number of settlers, say another 20-25,000 may be granded the right to stay. The selection should be based on a set of pre-defined criteria like: number of years of residency.

In order to find a solution both sides need to make concessions. For TCs it seems that political equality is a red line. For the GCs the red-line seems to be REAL independence without any outside influence from Greece and Turkey plus the right to return if they choose to. The latter I do not think its a problem for TCs since we all know that not many GCs will choose to return and stay permamently in the north since they have built their lifes in the south. The 20% that people quoted earlier may even be an optimistic one.

The real question here is whether Turkey is prepared to allow Cyprus to go its own way. For the TCs I will just say that provided that Turkey allows REAL independence to Cyprus, the GCs are prepared in their great majority to accept a solution that would allow a preset number of settlers to stay and political equality even in a form similar to that of the Annan plan.

I agree with what you say about settlers but who will provide security for TCs?

What if we have 10-20,000 UN troops or even EU troops on the island for a period of 10 years? These troops will decrease with time until there is no need for them to oversee the implementation of the solution.
I know what your answer will be VP...that UN and EU troops have never intervened when something went wrong etc etc. Before stating this though, please just think a bit..do you really believe that GCs will attack TCs?
Please don't compare the 60's with today...the difference between these two periods is massive. Just to mention a few things:

- in the 60's there was poverty, while now people enjoy a quite good standard of living so they wouldn't want to lose this with a new conflict. Economics dictate politics in today's world and companies need a stable environment to develop

- in the 60's the majority of people were uneducated and hence prone to nationalistic bullshits

-both communities have suffered greatly and learned in the process

- the GC community in their great majority identify themselves as Cypriots or Cypriot first and not as just Greek (only 5% define themselves as Greeks)

- GCs moved away from Enosis. In fact to most of them this would have been an anathema

- Cyprus is part of the EU with all the guarantees that this entails

- ..... I could go on and on, but these are the main ones

So in other words you are asking us to take a leap of faith, 99% of TCs only trust the Turkish Army to keep the peace as it has done so for the past 33 years, ok we accept that once a solution is found that they should leave as they are a fear factor for GCs, but think of it this way we see it has get rid of your big brother so that we can bully you once again thats how TCs feel. Maybe a compromise can be found the Turkish army withdraw gradually and the security guarantee expires when Turkey enters the EU, what have GCs got to fear? do they think Turkey will attack when you consider as you yourself have admitted things have changed and we are now in 2007.

[Viewpoint]

I have been away for a while. I am happy to say that I am glad that finally we have a decent discussion in the forum without all the swearing and name calling.

Now back to the subject...I think that the settlers issue is one that the GCs are prepared to make some concessions in terms of numbers staying. Actually what Bir said earlier that all settlers that married with TCs plus a PRE-SET number of families that have been living in Cyprus for many years can be allowed to stay provided that they either empty the properties handed out to them or at least pay the real owner the current price of the property.
So for example if there are 15,000 settlers in mixed marriages then an additional number of settlers, say another 20-25,000 may be granded the right to stay. The selection should be based on a set of pre-defined criteria like: number of years of residency.

In order to find a solution both sides need to make concessions. For TCs it seems that political equality is a red line. For the GCs the red-line seems to be REAL independence without any outside influence from Greece and Turkey plus the right to return if they choose to. The latter I do not think its a problem for TCs since we all know that not many GCs will choose to return and stay permamently in the north since they have built their lifes in the south. The 20% that people quoted earlier may even be an optimistic one.

The real question here is whether Turkey is prepared to allow Cyprus to go its own way. For the TCs I will just say that provided that Turkey allows REAL independence to Cyprus, the GCs are prepared in their great majority to accept a solution that would allow a preset number of settlers to stay and political equality even in a form similar to that of the Annan plan.

I agree with what you say about settlers but who will provide security for TCs?

What if we have 10-20,000 UN troops or even EU troops on the island for a period of 10 years? These troops will decrease with time until there is no need for them to oversee the implementation of the solution.
I know what your answer will be VP...that UN and EU troops have never intervened when something went wrong etc etc. Before stating this though, please just think a bit..do you really believe that GCs will attack TCs?
Please don't compare the 60's with today...the difference between these two periods is massive. Just to mention a few things:

- in the 60's there was poverty, while now people enjoy a quite good standard of living so they wouldn't want to lose this with a new conflict. Economics dictate politics in today's world and companies need a stable environment to develop

- in the 60's the majority of people were uneducated and hence prone to nationalistic bullshits

-both communities have suffered greatly and learned in the process

- the GC community in their great majority identify themselves as Cypriots or Cypriot first and not as just Greek (only 5% define themselves as Greeks)

- GCs moved away from Enosis. In fact to most of them this would have been an anathema

- Cyprus is part of the EU with all the guarantees that this entails

- ..... I could go on and on, but these are the main ones

askimwos, indeed you make me laugh with your naivety!

You try to convince VP, as if VP is someone in need to be convinced!

askimwos, VP is not here in order to be convinced by GCs! VP is here only to convince you and the GCs that you should give up and allow her to run away with 37% of your country! VP is here in order to convince the TCs, not how good re-unification is, but how much better it is for them to keep 37% of Cyprus for themselves, and run away!

Do not waste your time trying to convince VP and the rest of the crew here! They are not here to be convinced by anyone like you or any other GC!

It is our country Kifeas, so I have just as much rght as you do to put forward my ideas and opinions on how we can share this beautiful island. 2 states where people can travel and settle where ever they wish under a BBF appears to be the front runner while a complete split appears to a close second and where we are headed. Why are you repulsed by the idea of the north state being administered by TCs? isnt this what you recommend for us to live in a state where they majority are GCs? what so wrong when the table is reversed? whats good for you is no good for us?

[Viewpoint]

In order to find a solution both sides need to make concessions. For TCs it seems that political equality is a red line. For the GCs the red-line seems to be REAL independence without any outside influence from Greece and Turkey plus the right to return if they choose to. The latter I do not think its a problem for TCs since we all know that not many GCs will choose to return and stay permamently in the north since they have built their lifes in the south. The 20% that people quoted earlier may even be an optimistic one.

The real question here is whether Turkey is prepared to allow Cyprus to go its own way. For the TCs I will just say that provided that Turkey allows REAL independence to Cyprus, the GCs are prepared in their great majority to accept a solution that would allow a preset number of settlers to stay and political equality even in a form similar to that of the Annan plan.

You probably do not to realise that what is a "red line" for the TCs (and Turkey) is not political equality, but numerical equalisation instead!

You also probably do not realise that besides numerical equalisation (i.e. levelling-out,) they also have some other "red lines," equally illegitimate and unacceptable for the GCs, such as their ambition to run the north 30% exclusively by themselves, on a Turkic ethnic basis and in a monoculture fashion, along the principles and lines on which kemalist Turkey is run! You also do not seem to realise that they not only want most settlers to stay, but more importantly they want them to acquire Cypriot citizenship, and this is another one of their "red lines!" You also do not seem to realise that all these they managed to secure them in the Annan plan, if you have read and digested it!

Totally disagree, we could never equalize the numbers, the number of settlers who have been put forward to say are approximately the samenumber of your Pontian Greeks, one rule for you another for me always been the case. Are you now against the UN and world backed BBF solution? for gods sake make up your mind what you want.

[zan]

I have been away for a while. I am happy to say that I am glad that finally we have a decent discussion in the forum without all the swearing and name calling.

Now back to the subject...I think that the settlers issue is one that the GCs are prepared to make some concessions in terms of numbers staying. Actually what Bir said earlier that all settlers that married with TCs plus a PRE-SET number of families that have been living in Cyprus for many years can be allowed to stay provided that they either empty the properties handed out to them or at least pay the real owner the current price of the property.
So for example if there are 15,000 settlers in mixed marriages then an additional number of settlers, say another 20-25,000 may be granded the right to stay. The selection should be based on a set of pre-defined criteria like: number of years of residency.

In order to find a solution both sides need to make concessions. For TCs it seems that political equality is a red line. For the GCs the red-line seems to be REAL independence without any outside influence from Greece and Turkey plus the right to return if they choose to. The latter I do not think its a problem for TCs since we all know that not many GCs will choose to return and stay permamently in the north since they have built their lifes in the south. The 20% that people quoted earlier may even be an optimistic one.

The real question here is whether Turkey is prepared to allow Cyprus to go its own way. For the TCs I will just say that provided that Turkey allows REAL independence to Cyprus, the GCs are prepared in their great majority to accept a solution that would allow a preset number of settlers to stay and political equality even in a form similar to that of the Annan plan.

I agree with what you say about settlers but who will provide security for TCs?

What if we have 10-20,000 UN troops or even EU troops on the island for a period of 10 years? These troops will decrease with time until there is no need for them to oversee the implementation of the solution.
I know what your answer will be VP...that UN and EU troops have never intervened when something went wrong etc etc. Before stating this though, please just think a bit..do you really believe that GCs will attack TCs?
Please don't compare the 60's with today...the difference between these two periods is massive. Just to mention a few things:

- in the 60's there was poverty, while now people enjoy a quite good standard of living so they wouldn't want to lose this with a new conflict. Economics dictate politics in today's world and companies need a stable environment to develop

- in the 60's the majority of people were uneducated and hence prone to nationalistic bullshits

-both communities have suffered greatly and learned in the process

- the GC community in their great majority identify themselves as Cypriots or Cypriot first and not as just Greek (only 5% define themselves as Greeks)

- GCs moved away from Enosis. In fact to most of them this would have been an anathema

- Cyprus is part of the EU with all the guarantees that this entails

- ..... I could go on and on, but these are the main ones

So in other words you are asking us to take a leap of faith, 99% of TCs only trust the Turkish Army to keep the peace as it has done so for the past 33 years, ok we accept that once a solution is found that they should leave as they are a fear factor for GCs, but think of it this way we see it has get rid of your big brother so that we can bully you once again thats how TCs feel. Maybe a compromise can be found the Turkish army withdraw gradually and the security guarantee expires when Turkey enters the EU, what have GCs got to fear? do they think Turkey will attack when you consider as you yourself have admitted things have changed and we are now in 2007.

I am sorry Askimwos but you keep saying that times have changed and I have answered that many times with nothing changes along those lines. You keep ignoring me on this one. Just because a number that man has invented to mark the passage of time looks good for its present users and they think the times of old were the bad old days and we have gone past that does not make it so. I told you about Israelis bulldozing Palestinian houses, are the Israelis poor. The point is that it is not the people that start wars but politicians and when they want to start something they can concoct a thousand reasons as to why it is right to do so. I think you are being very naive on this one. I don't care what year it is, the UN or the EU cannot be trusted to protect a people. Only a nation can defend a nation and that’s all there is to it. Internal conflict, and that will be the guise any war, massacre or bullying will be termed as will be left unchecked for as long as it takes to see it through. We have been abandoned by the world for long enough for us to know that we don't matter. We have to provide for our selves and look after our selves and any settlement has to be part of that.

[Pyrpolizer]

I have been away for a while. I am happy to say that I am glad that finally we have a decent discussion in the forum without all the swearing and name calling.

Now back to the subject...I think that the settlers issue is one that the GCs are prepared to make some concessions in terms of numbers staying. Actually what Bir said earlier that all settlers that married with TCs plus a PRE-SET number of families that have been living in Cyprus for many years can be allowed to stay provided that they either empty the properties handed out to them or at least pay the real owner the current price of the property.
So for example if there are 15,000 settlers in mixed marriages then an additional number of settlers, say another 20-25,000 may be granded the right to stay. The selection should be based on a set of pre-defined criteria like: number of years of residency.

In order to find a solution both sides need to make concessions. For TCs it seems that political equality is a red line. For the GCs the red-line seems to be REAL independence without any outside influence from Greece and Turkey plus the right to return if they choose to. The latter I do not think its a problem for TCs since we all know that not many GCs will choose to return and stay permamently in the north since they have built their lifes in the south. The 20% that people quoted earlier may even be an optimistic one.

The real question here is whether Turkey is prepared to allow Cyprus to go its own way. For the TCs I will just say that provided that Turkey allows REAL independence to Cyprus, the GCs are prepared in their great majority to accept a solution that would allow a preset number of settlers to stay and political equality even in a form similar to that of the Annan plan.

I agree with what you say about settlers but who will provide security for TCs?

What if we have 10-20,000 UN troops or even EU troops on the island for a period of 10 years? These troops will decrease with time until there is no need for them to oversee the implementation of the solution.
I know what your answer will be VP...that UN and EU troops have never intervened when something went wrong etc etc. Before stating this though, please just think a bit..do you really believe that GCs will attack TCs?
Please don't compare the 60's with today...the difference between these two periods is massive. Just to mention a few things:

- in the 60's there was poverty, while now people enjoy a quite good standard of living so they wouldn't want to lose this with a new conflict. Economics dictate politics in today's world and companies need a stable environment to develop

- in the 60's the majority of people were uneducated and hence prone to nationalistic bullshits

-both communities have suffered greatly and learned in the process

- the GC community in their great majority identify themselves as Cypriots or Cypriot first and not as just Greek (only 5% define themselves as Greeks)

- GCs moved away from Enosis. In fact to most of them this would have been an anathema

- Cyprus is part of the EU with all the guarantees that this entails

- ..... I could go on and on, but these are the main ones

So in other words you are asking us to take a leap of faith, 99% of TCs only trust the Turkish Army to keep the peace as it has done so for the past 33 years, ok we accept that once a solution is found that they should leave as they are a fear factor for GCs, but think of it this way we see it has get rid of your big brother so that we can bully you once again thats how TCs feel. Maybe a compromise can be found the Turkish army withdraw gradually and the security guarantee expires when Turkey enters the EU, what have GCs got to fear? do they think Turkey will attack when you consider as you yourself have admitted things have changed and we are now in 2007.

During this transitional period Turkey will paralyse the new state and lead it to partition as planned.Hundreds of ways to do it.

[Pyrpolizer]

One of the most basic ways is to hold the agreement on ransom to bully the EU. For example if the Anan plan was accepted-presumably she would have to return Varoshia within 100 days.
1000 days would have passed and Turkey would still be manufacturing excuses. The GCs would rise and voila bloodshed and new partition.

Your security must be the structure of the state itself, and should be provided to you by YOUR police. Armies are for war not for security. We don't want armies in a United Cyprus.

[zan]

One of the most basic ways is to hold the agreement on ransom to bully the EU. For example if the Anan plan was accepted-presumably she would have to return Varoshia within 100 days.
1000 days would have passed and Turkey would still be manufacturing excuses. The GCs would rise and voila bloodshed and new partition.

Your security must be the structure of the state itself, and should be provided to you by YOUR police. Armies are for war not for security. We don't want armies in a United Cyprus.

Oh what like the ones the Greeks disarmed just before the 63 massacre????

[Pyrpolizer]

In order to find a solution both sides need to make concessions. For TCs it seems that political equality is a red line. For the GCs the red-line seems to be REAL independence without any outside influence from Greece and Turkey plus the right to return if they choose to. The latter I do not think its a problem for TCs since we all know that not many GCs will choose to return and stay permamently in the north since they have built their lifes in the south. The 20% that people quoted earlier may even be an optimistic one.

The real question here is whether Turkey is prepared to allow Cyprus to go its own way. For the TCs I will just say that provided that Turkey allows REAL independence to Cyprus, the GCs are prepared in their great majority to accept a solution that would allow a preset number of settlers to stay and political equality even in a form similar to that of the Annan plan.

You probably do not to realise that what is a "red line" for the TCs (and Turkey) is not political equality, but numerical equalisation instead!

You also probably do not realise that besides numerical equalisation (i.e. levelling-out,) they also have some other "red lines," equally illegitimate and unacceptable for the GCs, such as their ambition to run the north 30% exclusively by themselves, on a Turkic ethnic basis and in a monoculture fashion, along the principles and lines on which kemalist Turkey is run! You also do not seem to realise that they not only want most settlers to stay, but more importantly they want them to acquire Cypriot citizenship, and this is another one of their "red lines!" You also do not seem to realise that all these they managed to secure them in the Annan plan, if you have read and digested it!

Totally disagree, we could never equalize the numbers, the number of settlers who have been put forward to say are approximately the samenumber of your Pontian Greeks, one rule for you another for me always been the case. Are you now against the UN and world backed BBF solution? for gods sake make up your mind what you want.

Are we going to distrort maths now? 100,000 +settlers in a TC population of only 90,000 is equivalent to the GCs having imported 700,000 Pontians. How about that? We only have 1/10th of them and not even one with citizenship. We are prepared to send them away in a solution.Why are you not?

[Pyrpolizer]

One of the most basic ways is to hold the agreement on ransom to bully the EU. For example if the Anan plan was accepted-presumably she would have to return Varoshia within 100 days.
1000 days would have passed and Turkey would still be manufacturing excuses. The GCs would rise and voila bloodshed and new partition.

Your security must be the structure of the state itself, and should be provided to you by YOUR police. Armies are for war not for security. We don't want armies in a United Cyprus.

Oh what like the ones the Greeks disarmed just before the 63 massacre????

Go have your nap in your London based swing and dream of the 60 massacres like you were dreaming for the past 40+ years. In fact this is what you are doing ever since you emigrated in England at the age of 4, you are living in a state of nightmares

[askimwos]

You probably do not to realise that what is a "red line" for the TCs (and Turkey) is not political equality, but numerical equalisation instead!

You also probably do not realise that besides numerical equalisation (i.e. levelling-out,) they also have some other "red lines," equally illegitimate and unacceptable for the GCs, such as their ambition to run the north 30% exclusively by themselves, on a Turkic ethnic basis and in a monoculture fashion, along the principles and lines on which kemalist Turkey is run! You also do not seem to realise that they not only want most settlers to stay, but more importantly they want them to acquire Cypriot citizenship, and this is another one of their "red lines!" You also do not seem to realise that all these they managed to secure them in the Annan plan, if you have read and digested it!

Kifeas, no need to get agitated! You know where you stand and I know where I stand. Political equality may mean one thing to you but it means another to me and the majority of people. You mean political equality in terms of one person, one vote, what you forget to mention though is that what you are proposing is in fact a unitary state and not a federal one.
You start from a point that was not even the case in the 1960 constitution.

You also talk about the TCs running the north on their own. Can you explain to me how else are federal state run? The last time I checked in all federal systems, the states are run autonomously when it comes to education, health, policing, justice etc. Ofcourse the central government has those bodies that can check whether interior state policies are aligned with those of the Federal Government. For example fiscal policies at state level can only be aligned with those set by the Federal Ministry of Finance and the Federal Central Bank. The justice system is safeguarded by the presence of the Federal Supreme Court where people that think they have been ill treated can appeal. There is also the federal police etc, etc..

As for the Annan plan we have discussed this earlier and I have posted my reservations for this particular plan. The difference between you and me is that you want a unitary state where I accept a BBF that will guarantee REAL independence. For you this may be treason, for me is an honourable concession that takes into account TCs fears and reservations as well as those of GCs and leaves out the motherlands.