Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

The memory of kissing that soft, gentle hand that "ne'er do any harm, to man nor beast".

You must be suffering from stockholm syndrome....

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Thanks Zanathustra for posting the link, but I can't get the voice activated.

However, I have a warm glow inside just seeing His picture, in those black robes.....

The memory of kissing that soft, gentle hand that "ne'er do any harm, to man nor beast".

Yuk how gross, the man was a pedophile.

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LENA

Sorry for the delay...

No problem, we are all busy people but this forum keeps drawing us back.

VP can you tell me what is exactly the political equality for you??? And what exactly the TC are afraid from GC???

Where GCs cannot pass a bill to give Cyprus to Greece or laws to stop us trading with Turkey...where we have the right to say no to decisions that will effect our community negatively.

By the way I heard in the news that the boy and the rest of his family and friends were taken outside a church not in a military area...unless you consider the whole occupied area as military area.

The military do not arrest you for no reason at all, the number of incidents over the past 3 years has been evidence to this effect, you only get half the story and an exaggerated one at best. They were questioned and released end of story...there were more attacks on TCs and their property in the south by GC civilians over the past 3 years, shouldn't you be more concerned about that?

As for the flag you must be joking ...first of all are the Turks who did that and I doubt if they ask any TC for that. It’s there to remind us that Turkey invaded Cyprus to occupy the island and not rescue anybody...and if a show makes you feel better then i wont say anything more about it.

You say invade I say intervene its all a point of view from which ever side of the divide you sit. The flag is a reminder that forced decisions cost and that compromise is the only way forward when you share an island like ours.

But try to be a GC that lost his father and brother saw killing his mum in front of his eyes and his sister to be raped and then for the rest of his life have to see that flag up there...well i don't think that the message is clear to him...is more like you remind him those days every day ...every single min that he is out there in the streets of Nicosia.

I wish these things never happened and I as a Tc am sorry but for every GC tragic incident there is a TCs one and the suffering occurred on both sides, so we need to learn what humans are possible of and take precautions like taking safeguards to ensure this never happens again.

The rape is sickness you said and that you will never use it to prove anything or using them for further arguments. Killing people ...killing babies is not sick? Why you use that? Make people suffer and threaded them is not sick? Why you use that? Something is not right here VP.

In order to prove the severity of your point or argument we always use examples, you appear to mix the 2 and are not able to extract the parallel drawn from the example put before you, when I say we feel like the raped women you take this literally and try to explain it away, that is not right...you should try to concentrate on the emotions the rape has caused not the act of rape itself.

True we do have military pact with Greece in Cyprus but its so small. And comparing with the military force from Turkey....is nothing. But once i will agree with you 100% !! I don't think either that they will come to rescue us in that case...and yes it was going to be stupidity to do something like that.

For once we agree..

But I will never consider myself safe with the Turkish army all around me...I am not sure how YOU will protect me since you dont even want to see me

You have consider that we feel secure with the army here like you do with yours, taking them away and leaving yours in place would cause a great imbalance..the only way to solve this imo would be to get rid of the lot...my protection would be for any GC I and many TCs would never let any harm come to those that visit the north, we would step in and insure they were not mistreated or harmed.

The military force you have there is huge and unnecessary since nobody from us killed any TC since all the check points were created. And of course we don't have the military as a show...power show...but you can feel safe with the police...not army...do you see the difference between my safety and yours? How am I ever going to feel safe with all this guns around me? It’s like i will think twice to breath in case they consider it as offensive towards them and will take me to prison or show me the gun from a very close point of view.

Do you think it would be the same if they left? are you asking me to take that risk? I would never ask the same of you..only when both armies agree to go, will we ever consider them leaving because never forget that you are 800.000 and I am 250.000 who's at risk?

As for the part that you didnt understand....well you always say that is not right to have bigger part of the island...is not right to have more politicians in the government etc...that’s why I called you big fun of the law... but only when it comes to yourself....we dont have rights we dont have laws we dont have anything? Well no the right thing is to have a percentage of TC in the government every law will be applicable for the TC and the GC and the Armenian and the British and every human being that live on the island. According to your words you are the poor guys that suffer...we are the one who break the laws...you are the one who have rights...you are the only one who suffer....your world is only a huge YOU...benefits...and lots of imagination and lies. You dont want to see our side. You dont want to put yourself in our position. What makes you angry is the fact that we moved on? Is it the fact that we manage to come though the difficulties and build again our lives?

I am happy for you, that you have moved on and prospered this is your right but don't deny me mine, that's what makes me angry. One rule for you and another for me, that's not fair you accuse me of using the big guns of the Turkish military while you on the other hand use recognition like a weapon to keep me isolated in order to force me into integrating back into the "RoC"..when will you learn that this will not work? the more you pursue isolation of the TCs the more we will want recognition as your actions and mentality reconfirms that we cannot live together.

You are wrong VP…I dont want to cut pizza into slices....I want it as a whole and i want to share it as it is...I like to pick a bit there and bit of elsewhere. You force me to have a piece. Well i dont dream my relationship with you like that. I want you to take the pizza and feed me and i will take the pizza and feed you...we will sit next to each other and share it as a whole. I dot want slices

In order for us to feed each other I have to get safeguards that you will not run off with the pizza and feed it to someone else, leaving me with nothing.

Why we should share the island since we will have common administration? The difference will be the people? That is silly why we cannot find a common administrative system and not dived the island? Why should somebody force you to do something against your will...thats why we have democracy.

Democracy GC style is not what we want to be exposed to, we had enough of that back in the 1960s...we want democracy BBF and equal political rights style just as the UN ordered...why is that so difficult to accept?

Yes I said that our side wanted ENOSIS and your side wanted TAKSIM....those are fact ....but we are not talking about defeat and wining...do you think that all this years we were playing tavli? VP we are talking about human’s lives and we are talking about an island. You present us like we lost ...you defeated us...and now we come to beg for your mercy. No ...since you said we achieve what we wanted...ENOSIS even through EU...why should we think of you? We have a well recognized republic, we are members of EU, we have a good economy, we have tourist etc...why we want you by our side since we are «defeated» as you put it but according to me...we overcome our pain and we forgive and we extend our hands to you

You have 95% of what you want, a GC state, the EU, tourists etc the only thing your are missing is land and resolving the refugees problem..why should you want a solution where you have to compromise and share with TCs? all you have to do is to be seen wanting a solution in order to keep the refugees quite and the international community guessing at your real intentions which is obvious to us.

Yes I did read your post and yes you did admit that is your disgrace when it comes to those rapes....but I was talking about the Turks...do you consider yourself a pure Turk? My point is that you keep going with that story with the rape woman when there is no rape...people use to tell me to face reality ... well the reality is that there was no rape as you put it. We both suffer and we both been emotionally and mentally raped. Dont take us out of this. As for the rapes that happened towards TC well I am sorry if those are true but i never heard anything like that. Accept that I cannot take your word as a fact.

I am a proud Turkish Cypriot not a Turk there is a difference...you do not have to take my word as fact as I do not have to take yours.

As for the workers ...well never heard about a graduate of a University that works as a worker in the construction areas. And since you admit that is your fault that you cannot give to those people a job then why its our fault that we give them the jobs and we offer them the opportunity to survive and provide the necessaries to their families while you turn your back to them? Why should be mercy and not kindness, compassion....with mercy you make it sound like we feel pity for them and we do not treat them as human beings. I wont accept that since I saw very close that this is not true. As for your comment that not all employers are angels...yes nowhere are. I guess among the workers you will find unsatisfied and among the employers you will find bad people...that has nothing to do being TC and being GC but that has to do with characters.

I can introduce you to many TC university graduates who work on building sites in the south but as I say its our disgrace not yours. These people would not have to go south and be used as cheap manual labour if we provided jobs for them. If only we were allowed to move forward and improve our economy to accommodate our own people by supplying jobs but the people who impose inhumane isolation policies should take a lot of the blame, maybe its gods way of making them pay financially for their sins

We are both humans but dont ignore the fact that I am over weighted and I cannot feed into the same space as you. I never said that you are not allowed to sit on the same couch with me...just that I need more space and we will both be able to watch tv...I didnt say that we will watch the channel that I want we will both decide on that....but I will take the bigger part of the couch...why you are so bothered that I am so big?? It’s not going to change your whole style of life if I take most of the couch and eat most of the pizza...you will be full and you will rest like I will. As for the safeguard...well I dont think killing people and arresting people all the time show how safe we are with the army around us.

The fact that you are fat should not give you more rights than me...you automatically take up more space and we accept this..but being fat does not automatically give you the right to sit on me, does it?

[LENA]

I will get back to you hopefully tomorrow VP... Thanks for the reply.

[EPSILON]

Reading some of posts i concluded that the most of you became very good politicians and top of all you all try to prove that you represent the right part of the problem.

Allow me to ask a very simple question: What was the problem for you "democratic people" the majority of Cyprus citizens before 1950 to declare themselves as Greeks and ask union with Greece.

Do you consider the right of these people to choose their destiny as terrorism, not democratic, what?

Yes many of your perents considered the people rights as above, they reacted to stop the will of the population and we get the mess we are today.

all the rest are "paramithia tis chalimas"

[LENA]

Thanks for your patience and for your reply, my apologies one more time for the huge delay.

I will ask you one more time what is the political equality for you and what TC afraid of us?....you gave me a very general idea...well i want details...you said that you don’t want to stop trading with Turkey...well if you work under the recognized Republic of Cyprus you will not have any problem...if you do that illegally yes you will. You want us not to give you to Greece...VP we are not back in 1960s we are in 2007 that Cyprus is an independent state member of EU and don’t want to become anything else apart from a free country without occupation and illegalities. You said no towards decisions that will affect negatively your community...well what are those decisions that you think will affect you in that way and doesn’t affect us negatively? Give me examples not general ideas and words....do you have anything in mind or you are just saying something in case...??

VP in the last 3 years I heard about killings from the Turkish army in the barricade, I heard about GC kicked out of their property by Turks who live there at the moment who told them that the property belongs to them and they are not allowed not even to see the house, I heard about GC that were kept in prisons even for days the last 3 years, I heard about many arrestments from Turkish army in the north because people hold cameras etc...well you are right I only hear one side of the story but...I never heard that our army arrest any TC, or any police arrest or kill any TC for stupid excuses. As for the attacks I guess you are referred to people’s attacks. Well i was not there...I am not sure who those people were and why they were attacked and in what way ...if the TC challenged the GC etc...but i am not talking about those since those are between people and not governments army etc. But you still didnt answer my question...is the church considered as military area or is the whole occupied area military area? What I see...is that Turkish army want us to feel fear, they dont want us to feel safe, they dont want us to mix with you ... they want to challenge us and in case we lose our mind and attack back they will take the whole island and then say «they challenge us». Personal opinion but is what I see sometimes from Turkey ... every now and then they want to remind us there existence by creating fear to people.

By the way you have spoken about attack in TCs property...do you want to open that subject as well?? And talk about the luxury houses built in GCs land sold to other people for lots of money ... talk about Universities, «Government» buildings, casinos, hotels and lots of houses built in GC land and properties?

I said invade you said intervene...ok do you want to use intervene then you will have to put next to it the occupied and we will be fine...VP I am not playing with words...I told you that before...i want to get the right meaning ...I want to pass the right meaning not dance with words or play the word game. And in every point of view is the same...Turkey occupy the island...if i become you i see Turkey who came when I call her to clear up the situation and then they stay here for 33 more years keeping me in prison from the rest of the world. If I see it with my point of view I see Turkey which came killed raped kicked out people from their homes, occupied more than 1/3 of the island and act like we all need to kiss their hands (I put it as polite as i could).

As for the flag...you said that is a reminder that forced decisions do cost...you mean that the flag is there to remind us that the Turkey forced us to leave our homes? Is there to remind us that the mistakes of our leaders to force us to do things, cost us all that pain and grief? So we say we forgive and move on and you dont want us ever to move on and forgive...trust me nobody can forget...not even me that I didnt even exist back then...I cannot forget the face, the tears, the grief of my family and friends while they bring those memories back ...I cannot forget the face of my grandfather, mother, father, aunt, ankle when i ask questions for that period...I dont want the flag to remind me all the pain I see in their eyes...they dont need the flag to remember what they’ve been through. And what about the TC?? Are you proud for that flag? Are you pleased to see it cover all that area? Are you pleased to remember by that flag all that period?

Unfortunately there is not equal numbers here...no ... not for every tragic incident in GC families there is a TC one....we are more than the TC ... and we have more dead people than you....but grief is not about numbers...we do have dead people, missing people, raped women...I wish as well nothing of those things never happened...not just for us but for the whole island ... all the world. VP is that how you protect yourself? You turn a gun against the fear? What if that fear is illusion, is fault, is just a fear that will never come true...and by all that you kill people??

The rape is sickness you said and that you will never use it to prove anything or using them for further arguments. Killing people ...killing babies is not sick? Why you use that? Make people suffer and threaded them is not sick? Why you use that? Something is not right here VP.

In order to prove the severity of your point or argument we always use examples, you appear to mix the 2 and are not able to extract the parallel drawn from the example put before you, when I say we feel like the raped women you take this literally and try to explain it away, that is not right...you should try to concentrate on the emotions the rape has caused not the act of rape itself.

Well that is so selfish...no VP when i take the rape ... i will not take only one side of the story...the one that suits you...i will see both sides, circumstances, i will examine the whole thing...i will not take simply the feelings of the raped woman just to make it look so bad and feel pity about her....well you dont want to talk about real rapes but you call it sickness and you keep talking about the rape woman (TC) and I told you that i dont buy that story...has too many holes ...when it comes to the example of the TC rape is sickness bla bla bla...when it comes to real rapes and real feelings and real sick acts is not something we talk about and especially TC women hide it. Something dont sound so good to me.

As for the army....you want the Turkish army here to protect both of us?? Is that what you want?? And then you dont want us to force you do things you dont want, dont push you do things that will harm your community and you want to feel safe...but where are we in this story?? Also can you explain me how safe i will feel having the army, the Turkish force which done so much harm to my family and my island protecting me? It will look like the mouse which went by itself to the trap. Are you kidding me? Why not have the GC army protecting both of us and I will make sure that nobody will harm you? You and many TC will protect me you said...VP I am sorry but i will not be able to feel safe...you express so many times your feelings towards GC and are not the best one...you talk with so much love about the Turkish army and that they are always right...do you think that I want to suicide and i want to take the rest of my compatriots with me? No but thanks for your kind offer i still too young to die. By the way ... i will say it one more time...you dont want to see me but you want to protect me?? Will you be able to know who you will protect? If its not just me but any GC where were you when they shot the GC to the barricade? Where were you when they arrest all these GC for the last 3 years?

By the way you told me that Turkish army will keep up all safe and you will be there for me along with other TC to make me feel safe. But little be later you said that you dont ask me to leave just Turkish army here to protect us. By the way since when the TC are 250.000??? Are you sure that you didnt take out the Turks?

You know what VP?? Now i am totally sure that your world is the big YOU one. You keep mentioning the imaginary raped woman and ignore the real rapes. Now you move even further you ignore the big real weapons and you present the imaginary weapon the recognized Republic. You really have a serious problem with reality. VP is not GC that keeps you isolated. Turks forced you to live far away from us, they kept you there all this year with the fear that we will attack like it was us that invaded Cyprus....hello we were here ...Turkey came here and created all this mess. We offer you to come to us...be part of that weapon as you call it...but no you want to be the children of Turkey. The Turks keep challenge us, play with our fears, play with our pain but we are the bad people.

Why we keep you isolated? You can travel with no problem all over the island. You can work wherever you want. You can travel as European citizens. You can have all the rights we have and even more. But we cannot travel freely, we need to recognize an illegal state to be able to work or travel all over the island. We have all the guns turn to us if we decide to live in the north. But you are the isolated. You are the poor guys who suffer here. I am really fed up with this story...you suffer and you are isolated but you love so much Turkey who cam and save you and offer you so many things bla bla bla ... i am really fed up. When it suits you you have a perfect life when doesn’t you suffer.

Can you explain me why we cannot live together? All the TC that live among us why they dont have any problem? Why we cannot live together since we all have friends from the other «side»...you said you have GC friends and me as well. Why not? Married couples with TC and GC do exist and they are fine. Why we can not live together?

As for the pizza I said that we will eat together...never mention anybody else there. But whatever i say you have something else to say just not to admit that i am right. I said that i want to share with you a pizza you were sacred if i eat from your part...I said that there are no parts but we share the whole pizza together now you are scared if i invite somebody else to feed him your slices...No, I want to be just the two of us, I want you to take the pizza and feed me and i will take the pizza and feed you, we will sit next to each other and share it as a whole. Clear? Now what you will think?

Why is so difficult to accept that since we are more than you we will have more representatives but we will have the same laws and the same rights? Which part of the whole story makes it unfair towards you? We will have equal rights. What is bothering you? Is it the fact that we are more than you? We were always like that. What will change now? We have a saying that says that you want the dog full and you want the whole pie. You want everything yours. What is unfair according to you?

You have 95% of what you want, a GC state, the EU, tourists etc the only thing you are missing is land and resolving the refugee’s problem. Why should you want a solution where you have to compromise and share with TCs? All you have to do is to be seen wanting a solution in order to keep the refugees quite and the international community guessing at your real intentions which is obvious to us.

Is that what you think? What are the real intentions? Money? Land? What are your real intentions? Look the reality ... is you that feel isolated not us...is you that you don’t have so many jobs and financial resources... is you that want EU...we have it...your economy is very weak and our is strong. Just add all this...what is that summary? The problem is not refugees and land and money as you put it...is the Turkish army and the occupation...is the violation of our rights...the right to go whenever we want on our country with no fear, without a visa, without any guns pointing our heads....a peaceful island to grow up our children. That is the real intention.
I never claim something that doesn’t not exist in the history ... you claim rapes of TC women...haven’t seen anything haven’t heard anything. I am sorry.

VP the cheap labor you say is not that cheap for you....is a good payment and don’t try to present things as you wish...I told you I am close to that situation so don’t tell me that is cheap....I also met a TC that work in health services so your claims that TC with degrees works only in the construction areas is wrong...and if you dont believe me i can give you details. Also in the past I believe i saw somewhere in this forum people saying that they know TC who work in business area.

We are both humans but dont ignore the fact that I am over weighted and I cannot feed into the same space as you. I never said that you are not allowed to sit on the same couch with me...just that I need more space and we will both be able to watch tv...I didnt say that we will watch the channel that I want we will both decide on that....but I will take the bigger part of the couch...why you are so bothered that I am so big?? It’s not going to change your whole style of life if I take most of the couch and eat most of the pizza...you will be full and you will rest like I will. As for the safeguard...well I dont think killing people and arresting people all the time show how safe we are with the army around us.

The fact that you are fat should not give you more rights than me...you automatically take up more space and we accept this..but being fat does not automatically give you the right to sit on me, does it?

VP...I won’t answer to that since it seems to me that you didnt read the above....did i say anywhere that i will sit on you or you won’t eat any of the pizza or i will never ask you what channel you want to watch? Dont force me to start playing with the colors again...Tamam??

[Viewpoint]

Wow you have to get an A+ for effort and time spent replying but your whole argument is dismissive and one sided, typical of a GC mindset, you were obviously educated in the south and have not broadened your viewpoint living in the UK, its a pity becuase you are a young generation GCs yet you still support the ideology of your forefathers where TCs have to accept GC domination due to their numerical advantage. Well look at the Swiss, Belgian and Serbian examples where the different ethnic groups have a say in their own future and one cannot force the other to do anything they do not want. The EU is a prime example of states working in harmony and even with your tiny representation you can veto any decision you feel will effect your people negatively.

If we are to unite why do you have problems with having safeguards in place to ensure you or we do not try to do anything wrong, like pass laws to turn TCs into Muslim Cypriots or remove the word Turkish from associations, stop trade with Turkey for past actions, overrun the north state and declare majority rule, turn Cyprus into Greece, throw out the settlers. Cant you understand that we do not want to be like the Pakistanis in the UK, we want to be like the Scots or the Serbs, if you can work out the difference then you will be halfway to understand the TCs.

The wounds of the past are to deep for both sides and I will not go back yet again and try to lay blame both sides made mistakes and both sides suffered, for us Turkey is our saviour for you Turkey is the aggressor this is understandable as it was Turkey that stopped our suffering from 1963 onwards, where was your we are all Cypriots and we want to share the pizza with you ideology back then? We do not have a problem sharing the pizza with you all we ask for is that there are safeguards where you do not push us to one side and share that pizza with just GCs or others, if you have no intention of doing this then why do GCs object to safeguards as put forward for example by the AP. When Gcs oppose such measures TCs are coldly reminded of the past and retreat back into their shells very much like today the general atmosphere in the north is one of maybe we are better off as we are and we do not expect any solution in our lifetime. We are not starving and the sun comes up everyday why put our future at risk with people who do not show any signs of compromise or willing to share the island, all words and hot air nothing more. Even the up and coming meeting between the leaders is a farce, its just a publicity stunt to help papadop boost his votes, hey look people I'm meeting with Talat, trying to solve the problem give me you votes.

To sum up Lena we TCs do not have a problem with uniting but our demands for safeguards are paramount as there is absolutely no trust between the communities, over time if actions support and encourage trust and cooperation then these safeguards will no longer serve a purpose. Please do not ask me or my community to take a leap of faith leaving us to the mercy of the numerical majority.

I have intentionally avoided responding to all your points one by one as we do not see things through the same glasses and however much I try to explain we will just be going around in circles, I can respect your viewpoint but I do not have to agree with you. This only goes to show and we are prime examples of the chasm between our communities, and why we may never unite.