Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

I really do not understand why you insist that because GC are the majority it means that human rights apply only to them.
Human rights are universal. There is no such human right as "the right of a minority to veto decisions of majority" actually thats even undemocratic.

I did not say that human rights apply only to G/Cs. But it's a fact that exercising universal human rights in Cyprus is problematic. Let me explain.

For example, if we accept that all G/C refugees return to their homes, then this conflicts with a T/Cs universal human right of "feeling safe in home country". I know it might sound absurd to you, but as I said before, there are some T/Cs still living with the fears of the past, and you cannot blame these people for that.

Similarly, some T/Cs might want Turkish soldiers on the island in order to feel secure, and this is a basic human right. But a G/C might not want to see a single Turkish soldier simply because a G/C does not feel safe with the presence of a Turkish soldier. Now how can you solve this problem?

You said veto power, Turkish soldiers, etc. having nothing to do with basic human rights, but it seems correct on the surface. But think about it, if a T/C feels safer with Turkish army presence, and demands it, how can you deny that? Isn't it like denying the fundamental human right of security?

If we apply universal human rights for all Cypriots, and if the majority of the population (G/Cs) wants no Turkish soldiers on the island, then what's going to happen the human right of security of T/Cs?

Now, technically, majority rules, so from a legal standpoint, you can ignore the fears of T/Cs and go with the majority. But wasn't this the whole problem in Cyprus? Shouldn't we start caring for the other side's fears and desires after 40 years of conflict?

You said you don't want to put your children's futures on my goodwill, and i don't blame you for that. But this is exactly the problem in Cyprus, lack of trust between two communities. And you CAN NOT create trust between two communities overnight, it is a slow process. That's why you cannot get all you want, and T/Cs cannot get all they want and expect the other side to trust.

The perception of realities is different between the two communities, and that's why there will always be conflict of rights until we become ONE Cypriot nation. We have to START from a middle ground, and work towards the ultimate goal. The key is to keep constantly working at this trust-building process. And as you said, it'll be a tough process because there are uneducated people on both sides. But this is the only way to the real peace where both communities are fully satisfied.

I'm not trying to say "Let's get rid of human rights in Cyprus for the minority" On the contrary, I'm trying to show you how something that has nothing to do with human rights for you (eg. Turkish soldiers, veto etc.) might be a necessary human right for the other community (security). I DO want you to exercise all your human rights, I DO support return of refugess, but at the same time, I am aware that this conflicts with the rights of the other community, and the only way to solve the problem is by the goodwill of people of Cyprus. There is no other way.

[Guest]

I do not agree with several things that you said.

If TC will not be "feeling safe in home country" because of the presence of Greek Cypriots then the problem is with those TC and not with GC. If now in the US you move into a new area and the people there do not like you because of your race(racists), can they come and tell you that you should leave? No. If they don't like it, they can live, but they can not force you to do so.
I think all this that you said are created in your mind by Turkish propaganda. Turkey needs troops in Cyprus for other purposes and not to protect TC. But they convinced you that you need them to be safe. But please! With Turkey having one of the most powerful armies in the world and planes and missiles that can reach Cyprus in 5 minutes, we are the ones that should not be "feeling safe in home country" even without Turkish troops in Cyprus. (maybe we should demand from Turks to leave from Turkey because their presence there violates our human rights )


So I insist. The human rights we ask for are real. What you are telling me are just some unjustifiable (for 2004) fears created mainly and maintained exclusively by propaganda. Both sides have to get over these kind of things if we really want to live together.

Also I will repeat, that all this are created intentionally not by considering human rights, but by playing power politics. In these power politics, Turkey wins, we loose, TC loose most. If you can not understand this, then we will always loose, and you will always loose even more.

Say that cyprus problem is solved according to Annan plan. Can you imagine that some people will be able to move,live and work in Finland, Portugal, Lithuania etc, but they will not be able to do the same at the place that they were born and it is consider their country? Finland will threat me more like its own citizen than I will be treated in the north and we will call this "thing" united Cyprus?

[Noname75]

ok, those were long posts so I didn't read everything.
In general I agree with Guest (is he the same person as Greek Cypriot?), but Metecyp has some valid points.

I think it all depends on how much risk we (GC) are willing to take. Should we risk and accept a plan that can reunite our island and bring peace, but it can also go wrong and create more problems? Or we should reject it, continue our lifes and wait for something better?

But I agree with Guest that it is all about power politics. What we should do is to try to foresee how the balance of powers will be in some years from now. We are entering the EU and that is a plus for our side, but in this unstable world you never know what can happen.

Sorry metecyp that I say "our side". I would really like to consider all Cypriots as one side, but right now I can't do that

[metecyp]

Dear Guest,

Maybe you should write your name/nickname so I can start referring you by your name rather than just Guest.

First, let me clear some things for you. The ideas that I present in this forum are not solely my ideas. For example, I have no fear of living with G/Cs whatsoever, but there are T/Cs, especially older generation, who still have these fears. So I'm trying to convey the ideas of general T/C population.

If TC will not be "feeling safe in home country" because of the presence of Greek Cypriots then the problem is with those TC and not with GC.

Wrong. You are exercising utmost ignorance by this statement. TCs fears are well founded. The incidents happenned between 1963-1974 are still alive in many T/Cs memories. I'm not saying that these incidents will happen again. Yes, it's 2004 and world has changed, nevertheless people still have the right to have their own fears, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no racism, just longing fears of the past.

I think all this that you said are created in your mind by Turkish propaganda.
Turkey needs troops in Cyprus for other purposes and not to protect TC.

I'm not going to deny the propaganda in the north, but there's a great deal of propoganda in the south as well. This is why Cyprus problem is so messed up. But do you know where the Turkish propaganda gets most of its power? From the Greek side! Turkish Cypriot woman being turned away from Larnaca airport (Gulsen Sah, remember?), the sign of "Never trust a Turk" in a zoo in Limassol, and incidents like that are used very well by Turkish propagandist to brain-wash people, and your side is helping in this process!
Similarly, most G/C teenagers don't even have any clue about what happenned between 1963-1974, they only know about 1974, and how Turkey "invaded" Cyprus for no reason.

So I insist. The human rights we ask for are real. What you are telling me are just some unjustifiable (for 2004) fears created mainly and maintained exclusively by propaganda.

Let's assume that this is the case, and T/Cs have unjustifiable fears, and they are brainwashed. Now, answer this question, who has the power to change the situation? Only G/Cs because T/Cs are "brainwashed". Only G/Cs can show good will to T/Cs and convince them that they are wanted and they are part of this country and coexistence is possible.
What I'm trying to get at is this: Brainwashing is only possible if it exists on both sides, it cannot exist on one side because it needs some source to feed on, and the other side provides this much wanted source. Do you understand what I mean? You're trying to blame everything on "unjustified" fears of T/Cs, and I'm telling you that T/Cs fears, justified or unjustified, are fueled by the actions(or innactions) of your side.
Maybe, it's true that T/Cs left the Republic of Cyprus, but did G/Cs ever try to invite T/Cs back to their positions in the republic?
Answer this question please: How many percentage of G/C population is bothered by the fact that Republic of Cyprus has not been a bicommunal republic since 1963? I'm not sure not that many. This shows that G/Cs made no attempt to preserve the bicommunal nature of the republic, they did not give a single assurance to T/Cs all these years that T/Cs are really part of this republic, and they are welcomed (until recently when this whole EU thing started). Now how do you expect a T/C to believe in sincerity of your side?

Finland will threat me more like its own citizen than I will be treated in the north and we will call this "thing" united Cyprus?

Yes, I admit that this is going to be weird, but I see this as a necessary step.

And a final note. Most people complain about the Annan plan without giving any alternate solutions. Now, if you're against the Annan plan, tell me another solution where G/Cs, T/Cs, Greece and Turkey will accept. If you prefer the current situation, then I have nothing else to tell you since your mindis already divided into two.

[metecyp]

Sorry metecyp that I say "our side". I would really like to consider all Cypriots as one side, but right now I can't do that

No need to apologize, we didn't create this division. Hopefully, we'll replace "my side"/"your side" with "our island" soon.

[Noname75]

Metecyp,

All Cypriots except a small far right minority recognizes the mistakes of the past. Actually I remember my mother telling me that she was so pissed off about the Athens juda overthrowing Makarios that she was happy that Turkey "intervened". What she didn't know of course was that this was not just an intervention and that turkey invated Cyprus to occupy part of it and never leave.

So yes, we (all of us) made mistakes. And sure we have a small minority of people that still have the same minds as they used to. I am sure you have them too. These are the people that create the problems that you mentioned.
But I am afraid it is still called propaganda if you take advantage of what a small group does to stigmatize the whole community and brainwash people.

Those people have their opinions, and they are allowed to have them and talk about them and write about them. This is what democracy is all about right? But what you should see is what the great majority of GC thinks.

An alternative solution can come only from UN. As I said before is a game of power politics. So in 10 years from now the balance of power might be different and a different solution can come. Who knows?

[PEACE]

It seems you are so so quite and in peace now and you think hurrying for solution is not needed.

An alternative solution can come only from UN. As I said before is a game of power politics. So in 10 years from now the balance of power might be different and a different solution can come. Who knows

This means to me " We are going to be in EU so who cares a solution now.It can be later and later.Its not important worrying.May be we can get stronger and u can accept less rights."

You support the idea of waiting for a solution till tcs will get the rights you want to give !


Annan Plan gives us a balance solution and everthing is whole and if you remove even a brick the whole system can collapse !

You didn't noticed where we are going yet.May be you have all you need and you are in EU. But don't expect that one day we'll accept the rights that you want to give! After negotations many things will change.We'll see together.The side who don't want a real solution and who try to make a solution in its style will loose this game.


Forty years past ... Yes... We can wait a new plan but situation is now so different.How do you know that there'll be solution in 10 years of time if this chance will be lost?? May be another 40 may be never...


I strongly agree with metecyp ! All the things he stated is what i think about minority-majority subject.


U.N's plan now is quite good! It has a nice balance ! Its not giving chance to GCs to govern and take all decisions with ignoring Tcs thoughts.Annan Plan refers a federal solution and contains some confederal elements in it to prevent new order.


There will be two constititutional states that they have equal rights! Each constitutional state will be free in its internal affairs and will work together with other state in foreign affairs.These will have their sovereignty in internal affairs.

Briefly...
We don't want to be controlled by Gcs in Turkish Cypriot state and we want to govern ourself !

Turkey tried to govern us ! It disappointed! All of the tcs resist it and said "Here is cypriots' and we'll govern ourself."


I hope i explained what i want to mean ! If you have any misunderstanding than don't hesitate and tell me! BE HONEST!

[Guest]

I think we already said what we wanted to say.

You support the idea of waiting for a solution till tcs will get the rights you want to give !

Well, it worked for you, right? You were saying "no" "no" asking for more and more. It seems this method works. Thanks for teaching it to us. Our turn now

Seriously now, what I support is a fair solution, based on democracy and human rights. I don't want as a friend or compatriot anybody that does not respect democracy and my human rights.

You asked what the alternative to Annan plan is. I will repeat that Annan's plan is worst than the current sittuetion. So between bad and worst, we will choose bad.

[Greek Cypriot]

The "Guest" in this thread was me. Just forgot to enter my nick sometimes.

[PEACE]

I suppose metecyp explained you human rights subject and why it has to be like Annan Plan refers.That's a transition period and its needed for the new sytem's continuity.