Cyprus-Forum.com

[PEACE]

When Turkey enters the EU? This can be in 15 years minimum, and it can be never. Why should my rights depend on this? Turkey is VERY far from being a full EU member.

Because Turkey is the one of the quarantors ! This is for security reasons!
When Turkey enters to EU we won't need some limitations for security.
Turkey has to do a lot ! But its not that so far !

Also some EU members (not Greece or Cyprus) wouldn't like a muslim nation to enter the EU.

EU is a respected foundation.Who do all the needed criterion must be enter!Thats the rule ! There is no rule like " Only Christ countries can enter" in Kopenhagen Criterion.If some think that Turkey is a muslim country and can't enter than they violate EU rules! This is racialism and this is opposite of being neutral!Than we can't say EU is a respected foundation.

If they will find us guilty because we did not accept a bad solution, then let it be. In any case both Greece and Cyprus have the veto power in EU, so you and Turkey can say bye bye to EU forever

You are saying its a bad solution.But what about UN,EU and USA thinking...
World will decide who is guilty.If Turkey shows its real work for peace even there wont be a solution dont expect it can't have the date!

If you really want peace then give us back our properties in the north, and you can come to take yours in the south. All human rights should be respected, and democracy should be in place

Even all the properties given than limitations in elections and political rights needed for new order's continuation! If there is not any limitations this federal solution can easily turn to minority-majority base.

I accept all things who won't turn this solution to minority-majority base in the future.

[PEACE]

If you have a chance to change the plan by yourself which points you want to change?and how?

[Guest]

Because Turkey is the one of the quarantors ! This is for security reasons!
When Turkey enters to EU we won't need some limitations for security.
Turkey has to do a lot ! But its not that so far !

Sure, they are one of "guarantors" of the Republic of Cyprus under the 1960 constitution. If a solution is found a new constitution will come. In this constitution Turkey is not accepted as guarantor. (did they protect the Republic of Cyprus? No. Why should we have them as guarantor again?).

EU is a respected foundation.Who do all the needed criterion must be enter!Thats the rule ! There is no rule like " Only Christ countries can enter" in Kopenhagen Criterion.If some think that Turkey is a muslim country and can't enter than they violate EU rules! This is racialism and this is opposite of being neutral!Than we can't say EU is a respected foundation.

EU is not an open club that they give you the test and if you pass you automatically enter. If even one member doesn't want you for whatever reason then you stay out. For us to enter all the 15 parliaments of all 15 countries had to vote "yes" to our accession. The same will happen with Turkey.



Do you want to be friends? Then agree for a solution that will respect all human rights without exceptions. Agree for democracy. Agree that every Cypriot is equal to every other Cypriot, and lets all together build the new Cyprus of tomorrow.

You want to play power politics? We will not surrender. We will fight until the end. We will move ahead in EU and we will make sure you will stay out.

We are not asking for your money. We are not asking from you to be anything less than an enual EU citizen. All we are asking is human rights and democracy. Is that too much to ask for?

Friend or enemy, you choose. (who doesn't respect our human rights is our enemy).

If you have a chance to change the plan by yourself which points you want to change?and how?

-I would change all points that were included to protect Turkish and British interests in Cyprus.
-I would change the fact that a small minority can veto every decision the majority of this island can take.
-I would remove all exceptions to human rights.

[PEACE]

In this constitution Turkey is not accepted as guarantor. (did they protect the Republic of Cyprus? No. Why should we have them as guarantor again?).

It seems you didn't read the plan 1960 Quarantee Agreement is going to be valid with some changes according to new order.(mutatis mutandis)But most of the agreement will remain same ! Even Turkey's quarantor status will be on whole United Cyprus but also on Turkish Cypriot Constitutional State as alone too.

For us to enter all the 15 parliaments of all 15 countries had to vote "yes" to our accession. The same will happen with Turkey.

That's true.But show me a country who do all criterions but didn't accepted! It can not be accepted but it makes a shake on respet to EU.

Do you want to be friends? Then agree for a solution that will respect all human rights without exceptions. Agree for democracy. Agree that every Cypriot is equal to every other Cypriot, and lets all together build the new Cyprus of tomorrow

We'll be equal to each other in our constitutional states.Anything that will spoil this equality and that will turn system minority-majority system won't be allowed.Limitations is valid for Turkish Cypriots! Not only for you!Is it saying "These limitations is valid only for Greek Cypriots"??? No.So we are equal.

All we are asking is human rights and democracy. Is that too much to ask for?

All limitations for you is valid for us too! Most of the all the properties of Turkish Cypriots ruined or nationalized ! We can't go and live to our properties in the South as you know.After a solution we'll be in the same situation!Limitations is not only for you!

-I would change all points that were included to protect Turkish and British interests in Cyprus.
-I would change the fact that a small minority can veto every decision the majority of this island can take.
-I would remove all exceptions to human rights

You want a solution where Turkish Cypriots will be like Armenians or Maronits.That's impossible like the continuity of TRNC after a solution!

Yes ! In at least important subjects veto right must be ! That's needed for the contunity of the new order as it set up!

Limitations for both about returning back to properties,residence and disarm of Cyprus is valid till Turkey enters to EU.Annan plan encouragesTurkey's EU membership! All these for security reasons in the transition period.These are needed for a time limited period.These limitations are not only for you but also they are valid for us like they are valid for us!


If you want a solution under majority-minority style than don't say "I want federation" and you know what you will say at referandum.

Don't forget in 1977 federal solution is accepted and a wanting a solution under majority-minority sytle is not wanting a solution briefly.A solution can set up as federation but if precaution for some subjects won't be taken than it can turn to other system as well after 10-20 years.

You have to decide what you are wanting in "REAL".

[PEACE]

Here is the releated parts what i said in Annan Plan...

Article 1 The new state of affairs

1. This Agreement establishes a new state of affairs in Cyprus.

2. The treaties listed in this Agreement bind Cyprus and the attached legislation shall apply upon entry into force of this Agreement.

3. The Treaty of Establishment, the Treaty of Guarantee, and the Treaty of Alliance remain in force and shall apply mutatis mutandis to the new state of affairs. Upon entry into force of this Agreement, Cyprus shall sign a Treaty with Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom on matters related to the new state of affairs in Cyprus, along with additional protocols to the Treaties of Establishment, Guarantee and Alliance.

4. Cyprus shall sign and ratify the Treaty of Accession to the European Union.

5. Cyprus shall maintain special ties of friendship with Greece and Turkey, respecting the balance established by the Treaty of Guarantee and the Treaty of Alliance and this Agreement, and as a European Union member state shall support the accession of Turkey to the Union.

6. Any unilateral change to the state of affairs established by this Agreement, in particular union of Cyprus in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession, is prohibited. Nothing in this Agreement shall in any way be construed as contravening this prohibition.

And another one !

Security


Guarantees

The Treaty of Guarantee will cover, in addition to the independence, territorial integrity, security and constitutional order of the United Cyprus Republic, the territorial integrity, security and constitutional order of the constituent states.

The Treaty of Alliance will permit Greek and Turkish contingents, each not exceeding 6,000 all ranks, to be stationed in the Greek Cypriot State and the Turkish Cypriot State respectively.

Upon accession of Turkey to the European Union, all Greek and Turkish troops will be withdrawn from Cyprus unless otherwise agreed between Cyprus, Greece and Turkey. Greek and Turkish forces and armaments shall be redeployed to agreed locations and adjusted to agreed levels.



Demilitarisation

All Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot forces, including reserve units, will be dissolved, and their arms removed from the island.
There shall be no paramilitary or reserve forces or military or paramilitary training of citizens.

All weapons except licensed sporting guns will be prohibited. The supply of arms to Cyprus shall be prohibited in a manner that is legally binding on both importers and exporters.

The constituent states shall prohibit violence and the incitement to violence against the United Cyprus Republic, the federal government, the constituent states, or the guarantor powers.

Cyprus shall not put its territory at the disposal of international military operations other than with the consent of both constituent states Until the accession of Turkey to the European Union, the consent of Greece and Turkey shall also be required.

The federal government and the constituent states shall cooperate with the United Nations operation. The cost of the operation to the United Nations shall be borne by the United Cyprus Republic.



Monitoring


A United Nations peacekeeping operation will monitor the implementation of the Agreement. It will use its best efforts to promote compliance with the Agreement and contribute to the maintenance of a secure environment. It will remain as long as the federal government, with the concurrence of both constituent states, does not decide otherwise.

A Monitoring Committee composed of representatives of the guarantor powers, the federal government, and the constituent states, and chaired by the United Nations, will monitor the implementation of the Foundation Agreement.


Source Site : http://217.158.96.20/cyprus_decides/English/default.htm

If you want more click to download the .pdf document of Annan Plan from http://www.cyprus-un-plan.org

[Greek Cypriot]

It seems you didn't read the plan 1960 Quarantee Agreement is going to be valid with some changes according to new order.(mutatis mutandis)But most of the agreement will remain same ! Even Turkey's quarantor status will be on whole United Cyprus but also on Turkish Cypriot Constitutional State as alone too.

It seems I read the plan and I don't agree and therefore I will not vote for it. Turkish rights for the whole Cyprus? HELL NO!!!!!!!!!. Do you think we are so stupid to make the same mistake twice? The leaders can agree whatever because they are under presure. That doesn't mean the people are stupid and will vote for such thing.

That's true.But show me a country who do all criterions but didn't accepted! It can not be accepted but it makes a shake on respet to EU.

Turkey violates human rights in Cyprus (and to many other places). For me thats enough to cut Turkey from EU. And even if you can convince everybody else to vote yes for Turkey, we will not.

All limitations for you is valid for us too! Most of the all the properties of Turkish Cypriots ruined or nationalized ! We can't go and live to our properties in the South as you know.After a solution we'll be in the same situation!Limitations is not only for you!

Limitations should not exist on anybody. I already said: Everybody equal - all human rights respected for everybody.

If you want a solution under majority-minority style than don't say "I want federation" and you know what you will say at referandum.

I accept federation. Federation exists in many countries. USA and Russia are federations for example. Do you know any group of people in USA or Russia that have veto power on what the majority of the population decides?
What is in the Annan plan is a VERY loose federation that exists nowhere else in the world and it is almost like confederation, something we never and we will never agree for.

You have to decide what you are wanting in "REAL".

No, we have to decide what is better The current situetion bad. But with Annan plan it will be worst (for us). So between bad and worst we prefer bad.

In your case though, I think you could give up demands for veto power and some other things, and still at the end you would have something better than what you have now. So for you now you have to choose between "bad" and "very good". So you will choose "very good". But this "very good" for you, is "bad" for us. We will not vote for it, so no deal. If you lower your demands, then we might have a plan that is "good" for you and "ok" for us, and everybody will vote for it and a solution will be found.

[PEACE]

Veto right in important subjects,limitations,contuniation of 1960 Quarantee Treaty (Mutatis Mutandis) and other things that you decline... These are not our extra demands but this is Annan Plan as its. Sorry...


For a secure solution and new order these are all needed... That's all i can say!

That's your decision saying "Yes" or "No" ... You are free and we are too!

[metecyp]

Turkish rights for the whole Cyprus? HELL NO!!!!!!!!!. Do you think we are so stupid to make the same mistake twice?

What mistakes are you talking about here? Mistake of assuming that Cyprus belongs only to Greek Cypriots? Mistake of trying to implement Enosis instead of trying to construct a peaceful coexistence? Mistake of regarding Turkish Cypriots as mere minority and disregard their wishes and desires? Mistake of excluding Turkish Cypriots from their rightful positions in Republic of Cyprus? etc.

Cyprus history is full of mistakes, from BOTH sides! So please think before you write something. Turkey had the right both legally and morally to intervene in 1974. I might not approve the policies followed after 1974, but nevertheless Turkey would not have been in Cyprus, if Greek junta did not organize coup in Cyprus, so there's another mistake.

Limitations should not exist on anybody. I already said: Everybody equal -all human rights respected for everybody.

Nobody is denying the human rights of anybody here. But you have to remember that the rights of minority should be safe-guarded from majority until trust builds between two communities. I also agree with you that there should be no limitation in movement, settlement, etc. but this is only a dream right now. It's a dream that we, as Cypriots, should work for it.

If you really believed in peace and peaceful coexistence of two communities, you would first make sure that Turkish Cypriots' rights are safe-guarded and then demand for human rights for everyone. When you say human rights for everyone, you actually mean human rights for Greek Cypriots. You know that Turkish Cypriots are minority and if human rights are applied uniformly all over Cyprus, you damn know that Turkish Cypriots won't have any guarded rights. How do you expect Turkish Cypriots to trust you when you ignore their fears and desires?

No, we have to decide what is better The current situetion bad. But with Annan plan it will be worst (for us). So between bad and worst we prefer bad.

It seems like you regard south Cyprus as your country and north Cyprus as someone else's country. Your mind has been already divided into two when you think of Cyprus problem. How can you say that Annan plan is worse than current situation when north Cyprus will be a much different place after Annan plan? There might not be too much difference in south Cyprus, but there sure will be huge changes in the north, and if you really believed in one united Cyprus, the changes in the north would be enough for you to vote for Annan plan.

[Greek Cypriot]

Annan plan as it is now can be considered as rejected already. Several polls have shown that only 20%-25% of GC accept the plan as it is.

More would be willing to vote for it if changes are made, but I am sure Dectash will not agree to these changes. So Annan plan can be considered dead.

[metecyp]

Annan plan as it is now can be considered as rejected already. Several polls have shown that only 20%-25% of GC accept the plan as it is.

This might be true but I'm sure these numbers will significantly change in the next few months. Turkish Cypriots will probably vote for yes for Annan plan, and a no from Greek Cypriots would be a loss for both sides.

But don't forget that a yes from T/Cs and a no from G/Cs might bring some significant improvements such as recognition of TRNC or lifting embargos in the north. You can be happy that G/Cs will say no to the plan for now, but I'm not sure how happy you'll be once Denktash achieves his long dream of internationally recognized TRNC. In short, I don't think that it will be that easy for both communities to say no.

Finally, don't forget that THERE WILL BE NO SOLUTION IN CYPRUS THAT SATISFIES BOTH SIDES. This is simply because both sides/communities have different views on fundamental issues. A fair solution will be the one where no side is fully satisfied. Remember this before you vote no for Annan plan as well.