Cyprus-Forum.com

[pitsilos]

oh I forgot the armenians

[pitsilos]

oh shit and the kurds to this very day

[Get Real!]

Thanks again as always "the source of so much info" Get Real. Yes that might be the case. I was explaining the situation as I knew it to BK in more simplific terms.
Next time I visit you I will have check-out your sources. You must have Million Gig capacity in your bunker!

You're always welcome in my bunkers Deniz but I'll have to think about the silos...

[denizaksulu]

Thank you Zan, and dont I know it!

[EPSILON]

Until the British took control of Cyprus,there were only Cypriots living in Cyprus....Muslim Cypriots which were the favoured minority,and the Christian Cypriots which were not so blessed...The only killings that would've happened then would've been on the usual grounds (for honour,or land disputes,or officially sanctioned revenge killings etc)...Greek and Turkish nationalism did not appear till the end of WW1,amply encouraged by the British for their own selfish interests...

During the Ottoman times there were quite a few uprisings by mainly the Christian Cypriots for tax reasons, which were brutally suppressed by the Ottoman soldiers.In some of those uprisings,both Muslim and Christian Cypriots fought side by side and supported each other...during British times they had to come up with ways to divide and rule,hence nationalism was pushed to the foreground...Cypriots have been paying the price in blood,losses of property,country and identity,ever since...Silly Us...

Muslim Cypriots be the majority....and then you wake up and you realised that it was just a dream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Cyprus was never invated by Greece but it was always populated by Greeks, strange for your mentality be everywhere only by invasion and settlers

[BirKibrisli]

To BirKibrisli; My understanding of the situation regarding Turkish Nationalism is quite different. In the twenties, thirties, forties and even the fifties, the English authorities were hell bent on stiflinfg the ever threat of Turkish Nationalism. In the few Villages where I lived, I was often told that the then Colonial rulers refused to build Muslim Schools (they were never refered to as Turkish schools) (The sources of this information were old teachers who had to travel miles to other villages because of the lack of Turkish Schools). Where no Turkish School existed they were told to attend Greek schools if they wanted any education. I do know people who had started their student years in greek primary schools, then decided to walk miles to other villages which did have Turkish schools. The point I am making is that Turkish Nationalism and the moslem population in general were supressed by the colonial system.

I am not sure about the school situation,Deniz,so I cannot comment...But what I know for sure is that Turkish nationalism was fostered and promoted by the British,especially after the WW2,to make it easier for them to rule in Cyprus...TMT was tolerated by the Colonialists,and even supported in some cases...My father knew,for example,when there was going to be a house to house search for weapons by the British during the late 50s...we always had enough time to hide them...some in our own beds as I mentioned elsewhere...

But naturally,there would have been nervousness about Turkish nationalism during the WW1.But once Cyprus was ceded to the British in 1923,they had no reason to fear Turkish nationalism,and looked for ways to exploit it for their own selfish reasons...It was also during the British rule that schools became segregated,and the practice of teaching both languages in all schools was abandoned by the end of 20s...the divide and rule policy was in full swing by then...But don't tell Zan...He will never agree that the British was capable of anything as base as that...He'd rather blame the EOKA for everything that went wrong in Cyprus...

[zan]

To BirKibrisli; My understanding of the situation regarding Turkish Nationalism is quite different. In the twenties, thirties, forties and even the fifties, the English authorities were hell bent on stiflinfg the ever threat of Turkish Nationalism. In the few Villages where I lived, I was often told that the then Colonial rulers refused to build Muslim Schools (they were never refered to as Turkish schools) (The sources of this information were old teachers who had to travel miles to other villages because of the lack of Turkish Schools). Where no Turkish School existed they were told to attend Greek schools if they wanted any education. I do know people who had started their student years in greek primary schools, then decided to walk miles to other villages which did have Turkish schools. The point I am making is that Turkish Nationalism and the moslem population in general were supressed by the colonial system.

I am not sure about the school situation,Deniz,so I cannot comment...But what I know for sure is that Turkish nationalism was fostered and promoted by the British,especially after the WW2,to make it easier for them to rule in Cyprus...TMT was tolerated by the Colonialists,and even supported in some cases...My father knew,for example,when there was going to be a house to house search for weapons by the British during the late 50s...we always had enough time to hide them...some in our own beds as I mentioned elsewhere...

But naturally,there would have been nervousness about Turkish nationalism during the WW1.But once Cyprus was ceded to the British in 1923,they had no reason to fear Turkish nationalism,and looked for ways to exploit it for their own selfish reasons...It was also during the British rule that schools became segregated,and the practice of teaching both languages in all schools was abandoned by the end of 20s...the divide and rule policy was in full swing by then...But don't tell Zan...He will never agree that the British was capable of anything as base as that...He'd rather blame the EOKA for everything that went wrong in Cyprus...

See, this is where you misunderstand me over and over again. I know about the British tactics but where as you use these tactics and the TMT to blame us for everything that happened on the island I follow a more traditional route and see the British and the EOKA as the start and finish of this. They both came first. So did ENOSIS. Are you going to tell me that that is not the case? They came first and we responded. How can the people that try to protect their interests be blamed? I as a Turkish Cypriot and Turkey as former owners of an island that is on their doorstep and of strategic importance to their shipping. These are the things that you are fighting against and have no respect for. Any agreement has to take these issues into account and you and tithe "RoC" are not doing this. I am sorry but the "RoC" was formed by illegal means and I do not recognise it because of that. It was formed without my people and me and represents only the people it was formed with. You want to be sensible about these things then take all this into account as well and stop trying to discount us.


I mean take a look at your little story. You sleep in a bed with weapons that your father insisted was necessary to protect your interests and the interests of his people and you decide to hate the people that were trying to look after themselves instead of the people that made that situation necessary. You blame a man for carrying a gun when there are looters and robbers in them there hills. I think they made a movie about that one in Hollywood in the 60s. It stared Burt Lancaster and lasted about 3 minutes. He got shot........................................



Cause and effect mate. The effect were your unwanted bed guests but the cause was the need for the Brits to rule in Cyprus and the GCs for wanting ENOSIS for hundreds of years. WE have discussed many times the techniques that Makarios and his henchmen used to achieve the second and the reason why the British, Greece and Turkey saw the need to draw up the Zurich agreement. That need still exists today and you can ignore it like you do the ENOSIS movement or accept it and move forward. Inactivity in this case is what is happening today. It seems you have made your choice. I have made mine.

[BirKibrisli]

To BirKibrisli; My understanding of the situation regarding Turkish Nationalism is quite different. In the twenties, thirties, forties and even the fifties, the English authorities were hell bent on stiflinfg the ever threat of Turkish Nationalism. In the few Villages where I lived, I was often told that the then Colonial rulers refused to build Muslim Schools (they were never refered to as Turkish schools) (The sources of this information were old teachers who had to travel miles to other villages because of the lack of Turkish Schools). Where no Turkish School existed they were told to attend Greek schools if they wanted any education. I do know people who had started their student years in greek primary schools, then decided to walk miles to other villages which did have Turkish schools. The point I am making is that Turkish Nationalism and the moslem population in general were supressed by the colonial system.

I am not sure about the school situation,Deniz,so I cannot comment...But what I know for sure is that Turkish nationalism was fostered and promoted by the British,especially after the WW2,to make it easier for them to rule in Cyprus...TMT was tolerated by the Colonialists,and even supported in some cases...My father knew,for example,when there was going to be a house to house search for weapons by the British during the late 50s...we always had enough time to hide them...some in our own beds as I mentioned elsewhere...

But naturally,there would have been nervousness about Turkish nationalism during the WW1.But once Cyprus was ceded to the British in 1923,they had no reason to fear Turkish nationalism,and looked for ways to exploit it for their own selfish reasons...It was also during the British rule that schools became segregated,and the practice of teaching both languages in all schools was abandoned by the end of 20s...the divide and rule policy was in full swing by then...But don't tell Zan...He will never agree that the British was capable of anything as base as that...He'd rather blame the EOKA for everything that went wrong in Cyprus...

See, this is where you misunderstand me over and over again. I know about the British tactics but where as you use these tactics and the TMT to blame us for everything that happened on the island I follow a more traditional route and see the British and the EOKA as the start and finish of this. They both came first. So did ENOSIS. Are you going to tell me that that is not the case? They came first and we responded. How can the people that try to protect their interests be blamed? I as a Turkish Cypriot and Turkey as former owners of an island that is on their doorstep and of strategic importance to their shipping. These are the things that you are fighting against and have no respect for. Any agreement has to take these issues into account and you and tithe "RoC" are not doing this. I am sorry but the "RoC" was formed by illegal means and I do not recognise it because of that. It was formed without my people and me and represents only the people it was formed with. You want to be sensible about these things then take all this into account as well and stop trying to discount us.


I mean take a look at your little story. You sleep in a bed with weapons that your father insisted was necessary to protect your interests and the interests of his people and you decide to hate the people that were trying to look after themselves instead of the people that made that situation necessary. You blame a man for carrying a gun when there are looters and robbers in them there hills. I think they made a movie about that one in Hollywood in the 60s. It stared Burt Lancaster and lasted about 3 minutes. He got shot........................................



Cause and effect mate. The effect were your unwanted bed guests but the cause was the need for the Brits to rule in Cyprus and the GCs for wanting ENOSIS for hundreds of years. WE have discussed many times the techniques that Makarios and his henchmen used to achieve the second and the reason why the British, Greece and Turkey saw the need to draw up the Zurich agreement. That need still exists today and you can ignore it like you do the ENOSIS movement or accept it and move forward. Inactivity in this case is what is happening today. It seems you have made your choice. I have made mine.

And I guess where you misunderstand me,or misrepresent me,is that you think I do not know the role EOKA played in the whole mess.You think I only blame our side....That is not the case...I blame the foreign interests first (Britain,Turkey,Greece,USA,USSR etc) and I blame the GCs and TCs equally...This is where we disagree,because you show no empathy at all for the GCs and do not see them as equal victims in this tragedy...I see the wish for Enosis as a legitimate and understandable wish,for a people who were always ruled by others in almost all of their history,to want to use their right of self-determination...And I see the fear and struggle against Enosis as equally understandable and legitimate for TCs...The other point we don't agree is the role of the TMT...You and VP and people who think like you do refuse to see that TMT was as much a terrorist organisation as the EOKA was for the British and the TCs...And you refuse to see the role of the TMT and the TCs in the breakup of the Republic,you choose to put all the blame on the GCs...But the real problem I have with you is the fact that you are stuck in 1963/64 period and refuse to move on...You will not acknowledge that an overwhelming majoirity of GCs now realise it was a folly to want Enosis,while we could've had real self-determination in self-rule,becoming a nation in our own right,instead of beeing an appendix to our distant cousins...You refuse to acknowledge that there is really one nation in Cyprus,the Cypriot nation,who happen to speak more than one language and have multiple belief systems...Your stand makes it impossible to have a just,fair and peaceful solution.By insisting on preferential treatment along ethnic lines you want to perpetuate the difficulties and enmities which brought us to where we are today...And you refuse to see the role of Turkey after 1974,how they turned a legitimate intervention into an invasion and occupation,hence making it impossible to find a solution which will be truly fair for the majority of Cypriots...And you are blind to the efforts to wipe out our unique identity as TCs...You are like a person with a blood fued...you want revenge and you will get your pound of flesh knowing well it will then be the other side's turn to extract theirs,and on and on it will go...I want to stop and practice empathy and forgiveness on each other,without trying to allocate blame or guilt or whatever...I want us all to accept that we have been taken for suckers,and we are still being taken for suckers,as long as we refuse to embrace each other as brothers/sisters and compatriots...You have no faith in the rule of the law,in the sanctity of human rights and equal opportunity principles...You have no faith in your fellow Cypriots...You have no faith in your community's ability to hold their own in the 21st century European Cyprus...That is my real biff with you...

[zan]

To BirKibrisli; My understanding of the situation regarding Turkish Nationalism is quite different. In the twenties, thirties, forties and even the fifties, the English authorities were hell bent on stiflinfg the ever threat of Turkish Nationalism. In the few Villages where I lived, I was often told that the then Colonial rulers refused to build Muslim Schools (they were never refered to as Turkish schools) (The sources of this information were old teachers who had to travel miles to other villages because of the lack of Turkish Schools). Where no Turkish School existed they were told to attend Greek schools if they wanted any education. I do know people who had started their student years in greek primary schools, then decided to walk miles to other villages which did have Turkish schools. The point I am making is that Turkish Nationalism and the moslem population in general were supressed by the colonial system.

I am not sure about the school situation,Deniz,so I cannot comment...But what I know for sure is that Turkish nationalism was fostered and promoted by the British,especially after the WW2,to make it easier for them to rule in Cyprus...TMT was tolerated by the Colonialists,and even supported in some cases...My father knew,for example,when there was going to be a house to house search for weapons by the British during the late 50s...we always had enough time to hide them...some in our own beds as I mentioned elsewhere...

But naturally,there would have been nervousness about Turkish nationalism during the WW1.But once Cyprus was ceded to the British in 1923,they had no reason to fear Turkish nationalism,and looked for ways to exploit it for their own selfish reasons...It was also during the British rule that schools became segregated,and the practice of teaching both languages in all schools was abandoned by the end of 20s...the divide and rule policy was in full swing by then...But don't tell Zan...He will never agree that the British was capable of anything as base as that...He'd rather blame the EOKA for everything that went wrong in Cyprus...

See, this is where you misunderstand me over and over again. I know about the British tactics but where as you use these tactics and the TMT to blame us for everything that happened on the island I follow a more traditional route and see the British and the EOKA as the start and finish of this. They both came first. So did ENOSIS. Are you going to tell me that that is not the case? They came first and we responded. How can the people that try to protect their interests be blamed? I as a Turkish Cypriot and Turkey as former owners of an island that is on their doorstep and of strategic importance to their shipping. These are the things that you are fighting against and have no respect for. Any agreement has to take these issues into account and you and tithe "RoC" are not doing this. I am sorry but the "RoC" was formed by illegal means and I do not recognise it because of that. It was formed without my people and me and represents only the people it was formed with. You want to be sensible about these things then take all this into account as well and stop trying to discount us.


I mean take a look at your little story. You sleep in a bed with weapons that your father insisted was necessary to protect your interests and the interests of his people and you decide to hate the people that were trying to look after themselves instead of the people that made that situation necessary. You blame a man for carrying a gun when there are looters and robbers in them there hills. I think they made a movie about that one in Hollywood in the 60s. It stared Burt Lancaster and lasted about 3 minutes. He got shot........................................



Cause and effect mate. The effect were your unwanted bed guests but the cause was the need for the Brits to rule in Cyprus and the GCs for wanting ENOSIS for hundreds of years. WE have discussed many times the techniques that Makarios and his henchmen used to achieve the second and the reason why the British, Greece and Turkey saw the need to draw up the Zurich agreement. That need still exists today and you can ignore it like you do the ENOSIS movement or accept it and move forward. Inactivity in this case is what is happening today. It seems you have made your choice. I have made mine.

And I guess where you misunderstand me,or misrepresent me,is that you think I do not know the role EOKA played in the whole mess.You think I only blame our side....That is not the case...I blame the foreign interests first (Britain,Turkey,Greece,USA,USSR etc) and I blame the GCs and TCs equally...This is where we disagree,because you show no empathy at all for the GCs and do not see them as equal victims in this tragedy...I see the wish for Enosis as a legitimate and understandable wish,for a people who were always ruled by others in almost all of their history,to want to use their right of self-determination...And I see the fear and struggle against Enosis as equally understandable and legitimate for TCs...The other point we don't agree is the role of the TMT...You and VP and people who think like you do refuse to see that TMT was as much a terrorist organisation as the EOKA was for the British and the TCs...And you refuse to see the role of the TMT and the TCs in the breakup of the Republic,you choose to put all the blame on the GCs...But the real problem I have with you is the fact that you are stuck in 1963/64 period and refuse to move on...You will not acknowledge that an overwhelming majoirity of GCs now realise it was a folly to want Enosis,while we could've had real self-determination in self-rule,becoming a nation in our own right,instead of beeing an appendix to our distant cousins...You refuse to acknowledge that there is really one nation in Cyprus,the Cypriot nation,who happen to speak more than one language and have multiple belief systems...Your stand makes it impossible to have a just,fair and peaceful solution.By insisting on preferential treatment along ethnic lines you want to perpetuate the difficulties and enmities which brought us to where we are today...And you refuse to see the role of Turkey after 1974,how they turned a legitimate intervention into an invasion and occupation,hence making it impossible to find a solution which will be truly fair for the majority of Cypriots...And you are blind to the efforts to wipe out our unique identity as TCs...You are like a person with a blood fued...you want revenge and you will get your pound of flesh knowing well it will then be the other side's turn to extract theirs,and on and on it will go...I want to stop and practice empathy and forgiveness on each other,without trying to allocate blame or guilt or whatever...I want us all to accept that we have been taken for suckers,and we are still being taken for suckers,as long as we refuse to embrace each other as brothers/sisters and compatriots...You have no faith in the rule of the law,in the sanctity of human rights and equal opportunity principles...You have no faith in your fellow Cypriots...You have no faith in your community's ability to hold their own in the 21st century European Cyprus...That is my real biff with you...

To your last comments abso-bloody- lootly!!! I have had two partnerships in business in the past and they have both asked me to take on the partnership in faith. I have said no to both and asked them to take on the partnership in the proper way with the legal problems sorted out first and then we do not have to rely on trust but on a professional basis. I was right on both counts because we enjoyed a perfectly good partnership and did not once have to rely on faith which just breeds distrust and suspicion. You can put all your faith in some mystical source out there if you like but I have no need of that sort of hokus pokus and would rather go the route of safety that always pays in the end. If you doubt what I say then just think back to all that money you lost on trust with guys that you thought would always be there. If you act like a fool then you will always be taken for a ride. Yes there are some good people out there are some good people out there but none that are looking after the Cyprob.


I am afraid that the rest of your post is a little garbled? You say we are a unique race time and time again but you chose to separate the TCs as being a more recent addition to the island. How is this when there are some that keep saying we have the same blood????

I have said many times that the GCs have suffered as much as we have but if we take that as so then why are you asking the TCs to give up more and suffer again. Does that not mean that we will be on top of the suffering list once again? If we have suffered equally then we should start from today on your equating of the problem. I

I don't know why you keep coming up with this statement of I am stuck in the 63/64 period when it is obvious that you are stuck in the 74 period with all the other GCs that want to turn back the time. If you want to move on then move on from today as I have said ABOVE. You cannot have it both ways. Either I am stuck so then you must be stuck or neither of us are stuck. Sorry pal but that’s the way it goes.

You seem to keep going on about the GCs on the ground again when you refer to ENOSIS. It was not the guys on the ground and it will not be in the future as it is not now. Politicians make those decisions and are duty bound to do so. People do not generally take up arms but are ordered to do so. You confuse the two every time and naively accept that want the people want they get. It is more obvious in the 21st century that we have lost the power that we had to the beurocrats so by asking me to lay my trust on the people you are being naive and irresponsible. Take out the politics and then yes but you cannot do that so no.

As for your thinking that I want revenge then that is absolute rubbish. I am happy with my lot and want no more. It is the "RoC" that wants more than its pound of flesh and I am telling it that it has had its share and that’s all it’s getting. We can bargain on what form that share takes but that is as far as I am willing to go. W have suffered equally don't forget.

You also sound like a crazed preservationist when you talk about the TC culture. It has evolved and will continue to evolve and if we can we will continue the traditions as best we can. You make it seem as if you want to kill a hundred thousand horses to preserve the grass. Sorry mate but the horses stay and you will just have to plant more grass.


For the rest I give you Europe as an example of people that have certain involvements and still they have regional differences and adaptations. Why is this always left out of the Cyprob. We have not held the GCs back so this can only go back to being a case of wanting to own the whole of the country.