Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

eskimwos wrote

The point is to get back to the negotiation table and try to understand each other. In order to do that we need to disengage from the Cypriots plight of serving the "motherlands" interests first.
I myself belive that the CyProb can only be solved with some sort of long awaited "revolution" in the sense that GCs and TCs sit together, decide a solution and leave the "motherlands" out of the equation and just go to the UN and announce their agreement. Utopia? Well maybe.
The current policies by both sides do not help at the moment, on th eone side you have TP who is a stubborn politician of the 60's and on the other side you have Talat who managed to hook himself on Turkey by following the same deadlock policy of "direct trade" and back door recognistion.

I can see your point eskimwos, and it is very refreshing to see some positive thinking. But my problem is, as with many other posts in this forum, our GC friends have a tendency to base their arguments on assumptions and not facts. OK so mutual mistrust can be one of the reasons, but I sincerely hope common sense will prevail and GCs might just see the error of their thinking.

Let me expand on this and it might help you understand the position better:

1. What interest of Turkey is Cyprus serving? With million soldiers and a very powerful airforce and navy, are they scared of a tiny nation like Cyprus so that they need protection using TCs?

Forget about it serving Turkey's interests, Cyprus had in the past cost Turkey's economy a lot, and is still a major obstacle with regards to becoming an EU member. Maintaining an overseas force of 40,000 is also an expensive exercise. Turkish soldiers in Cyprus do not get free food, the army pays for food from local suppliers. Not to mention regular transportation concerning maintenance and exchange of men and equipment on the island.

2. You keep referring to things like direct trade leading to backdoor recognition, or GCs knowing very well that once direct trade starts TCs will never want a solution. On what grounds?

Can you tell us what has made you come to a conclusion like that? What indications are there that the TCs will never want to mix with their counterparts in the rest of the island once their economy gets better?

3. There is a wrong perception of the TCs due to bad propaganda in the South. They are very friendly fun loving people, very hospitable, and make you laugh if you were to make them smile. Yes, of course there is bad propaganda in the North as well - but the great majority of the TCs no longer take any notice of such smear tactics and are perfectly aware of the sources. They are also very well informed of the current politics and can make their own minds up. I dear say TCs are better informed because due to current economic embargoes, most of the TCs have no choice but spent a decade or two of their lives abroad before returning home - in the process learning to look at the issues from an outsiders perspective rather than what they had been told at school.

4. In my second or third post to this forum, I also suggested a cultural and social revolution for the settlers of this island to live together in peace under one citizenship. Two federal states with own policing and social services under Republic of Cyprus for at least a decade or two, with a common religious and educational policy.

The education should be stripped of all anti-Greek, anti-Turkish propaganda and concentrate on the history of the island from bronze age to this day. Preferably encouraging a critical and honest view of all the losses suffered by both TCs and GCs during wars, and why instead we should respect and learn to love each other as the good people of the same island.

The religious establishments must be forbidden by law to perpetuate any ethnic hatred. Membership of and any support for any para-military group or anything that resembles supporting a terrorist activity of any kind should be outlawed - punishable by life imprisonment! Social mixing of both sides should be actively encouraged, as well as joint participation in foreign representation of Cyprus in all areas of sports, arts, or culture.

If all the above can be done, so the Cyprus will become one. But do not expect miracles when the Orthodox church preaches hatred for the Turk, successive governments support PKK terrorist members in the South, children at school are taught to believe Cyprus problem started in 1974 and everything was Greek before then, EOKA-B symphatizers are abundantly in existence (allegedly they include current RoC president), TCs are prevented from participating in any form of international sports or cultural activities, and finally everything possible is being done to keep the sufferings of an economic embargo prevail.

Read the above carefully, and tell me from a TCs perspective why there is growing mistrust at this time, by even the most active preachers of a united island - Mr Talat and many members of his supporting party CTP. After crossing over to South and seeing true state of affairs, they have changed most of their original beliefs - the same is also true for many people who supported the left or had socialist ideas.

[DT.]

eskimwos wrote

The point is to get back to the negotiation table and try to understand each other. In order to do that we need to disengage from the Cypriots plight of serving the "motherlands" interests first.
I myself belive that the CyProb can only be solved with some sort of long awaited "revolution" in the sense that GCs and TCs sit together, decide a solution and leave the "motherlands" out of the equation and just go to the UN and announce their agreement. Utopia? Well maybe.
The current policies by both sides do not help at the moment, on th eone side you have TP who is a stubborn politician of the 60's and on the other side you have Talat who managed to hook himself on Turkey by following the same deadlock policy of "direct trade" and back door recognistion.

I can see your point eskimwos, and it is very refreshing to see some positive thinking. But my problem is, as with many other posts in this forum, our GC friends have a tendency to base their arguments on assumptions and not facts. OK so mutual mistrust can be one of the reasons, but I sincerely hope common sense will prevail and GCs might just see the error of their thinking.

Let me expand on this and it might help you understand the position better:

1. What interest of Turkey is Cyprus serving? With million soldiers and a very powerful airforce and navy, are they scared of a tiny nation like Cyprus so that they need protection using TCs?

Forget about it serving Turkey's interests, Cyprus had in the past cost Turkey's economy a lot, and is still a major obstacle with regards to becoming an EU member. Maintaining an overseas force of 40,000 is also an expensive exercise. Turkish soldiers in Cyprus do not get free food, the army pays for food from local suppliers. Not to mention regular transportation concerning maintenance and exchange of men and equipment on the island.

2. You keep referring to things like direct trade leading to backdoor recognition, or GCs knowing very well that once direct trade starts TCs will never want a solution. On what grounds?

Can you tell us what has made you come to a conclusion like that? What indications are there that the TCs will never want to mix with their counterparts in the rest of the island once their economy gets better?

3. There is a wrong perception of the TCs due to bad propaganda in the South. They are very friendly fun loving people, very hospitable, and make you laugh if you were to make them smile. Yes, of course there is bad propaganda in the North as well - but the great majority of the TCs no longer take any notice of such smear tactics and are perfectly aware of the sources. They are also very well informed of the current politics and can make their own minds up. I dear say TCs are better informed because due to current economic embargoes, most of the TCs have no choice but spent a decade or two of their lives abroad before returning home - in the process learning to look at the issues from an outsiders perspective rather than what they had been told at school.

4. In my second or third post to this forum, I also suggested a cultural and social revolution for the settlers of this island to live together in peace under one citizenship. Two federal states with own policing and social services under Republic of Cyprus for at least a decade or two, with a common religious and educational policy.

The education should be stripped of all anti-Greek, anti-Turkish propaganda and concentrate on the history of the island from bronze age to this day. Preferably encouraging a critical and honest view of all the losses suffered by both TCs and GCs during wars, and why instead we should respect and learn to love each other as the good people of the same island.

The religious establishments must be forbidden by law to perpetuate any ethnic hatred. Membership of and any support for any para-military group or anything that resembles supporting a terrorist activity of any kind should be outlawed - punishable by life imprisonment! Social mixing of both sides should be actively encouraged, as well as joint participation in foreign representation of Cyprus in all areas of sports, arts, or culture.

If all the above can be done, so the Cyprus will become one. But do not expect miracles when the Orthodox church preaches hatred for the Turk, successive governments support PKK terrorist members in the South, children at school are taught to believe Cyprus problem started in 1974 and everything was Greek before then, EOKA-B symphatizers are abundantly in existence (allegedly they include current RoC president), TCs are prevented from participating in any form of international sports or cultural activities, and finally everything possible is being done to keep the sufferings of an economic embargo prevail.

Read the above carefully, and tell me from a TCs perspective why there is growing mistrust at this time, by even the most active preachers of a united island - Mr Talat and many members of his supporting party CTP. After crossing over to South and seeing true state of affairs, they have changed most of their original beliefs - the same is also true for many people who supported the left or had socialist ideas.

can you please stop insisting on the point of Tpap being an eoka b sympathiser. It just shows how little you know the GC communty. Tpap was makarios's prodigy, his right hand man, on the day of the coup Tpap was thrown in jail by eoka-b. This is not a man that took part in makarios's coup. Its like saying Dick Cheney overthrew Bush for Bill Clinton.

The man is an anachronism but not an eoka-b sympathiser.

[bigOz]

I did not insist on any such thing, what I wrote was:
"allegedly they include current RoC president"
As far as I know an "allegation" is an assertion made with little or no proof, or an unsubstantiated claim. It is not exactly insisting is it DT?

[DT.]

you're right, i allege that Rauf Denktash is an undercover Greek agent.

[DT.]

eskimwos wrote

The point is to get back to the negotiation table and try to understand each other. In order to do that we need to disengage from the Cypriots plight of serving the "motherlands" interests first.
I myself belive that the CyProb can only be solved with some sort of long awaited "revolution" in the sense that GCs and TCs sit together, decide a solution and leave the "motherlands" out of the equation and just go to the UN and announce their agreement. Utopia? Well maybe.
The current policies by both sides do not help at the moment, on th eone side you have TP who is a stubborn politician of the 60's and on the other side you have Talat who managed to hook himself on Turkey by following the same deadlock policy of "direct trade" and back door recognistion.

I can see your point eskimwos, and it is very refreshing to see some positive thinking. But my problem is, as with many other posts in this forum, our GC friends have a tendency to base their arguments on assumptions and not facts. OK so mutual mistrust can be one of the reasons, but I sincerely hope common sense will prevail and GCs might just see the error of their thinking.

Let me expand on this and it might help you understand the position better:

1. What interest of Turkey is Cyprus serving? With million soldiers and a very powerful airforce and navy, are they scared of a tiny nation like Cyprus so that they need protection using TCs?

Forget about it serving Turkey's interests, Cyprus had in the past cost Turkey's economy a lot, and is still a major obstacle with regards to becoming an EU member. Maintaining an overseas force of 40,000 is also an expensive exercise. Turkish soldiers in Cyprus do not get free food, the army pays for food from local suppliers. Not to mention regular transportation concerning maintenance and exchange of men and equipment on the island.

2. You keep referring to things like direct trade leading to backdoor recognition, or GCs knowing very well that once direct trade starts TCs will never want a solution. On what grounds?

Can you tell us what has made you come to a conclusion like that? What indications are there that the TCs will never want to mix with their counterparts in the rest of the island once their economy gets better?

3. There is a wrong perception of the TCs due to bad propaganda in the South. They are very friendly fun loving people, very hospitable, and make you laugh if you were to make them smile. Yes, of course there is bad propaganda in the North as well - but the great majority of the TCs no longer take any notice of such smear tactics and are perfectly aware of the sources. They are also very well informed of the current politics and can make their own minds up. I dear say TCs are better informed because due to current economic embargoes, most of the TCs have no choice but spent a decade or two of their lives abroad before returning home - in the process learning to look at the issues from an outsiders perspective rather than what they had been told at school.

4. In my second or third post to this forum, I also suggested a cultural and social revolution for the settlers of this island to live together in peace under one citizenship. Two federal states with own policing and social services under Republic of Cyprus for at least a decade or two, with a common religious and educational policy.

The education should be stripped of all anti-Greek, anti-Turkish propaganda and concentrate on the history of the island from bronze age to this day. Preferably encouraging a critical and honest view of all the losses suffered by both TCs and GCs during wars, and why instead we should respect and learn to love each other as the good people of the same island.

The religious establishments must be forbidden by law to perpetuate any ethnic hatred. Membership of and any support for any para-military group or anything that resembles supporting a terrorist activity of any kind should be outlawed - punishable by life imprisonment! Social mixing of both sides should be actively encouraged, as well as joint participation in foreign representation of Cyprus in all areas of sports, arts, or culture.

If all the above can be done, so the Cyprus will become one. But do not expect miracles when the Orthodox church preaches hatred for the Turk, successive governments support PKK terrorist members in the South, children at school are taught to believe Cyprus problem started in 1974 and everything was Greek before then, EOKA-B symphatizers are abundantly in existence (allegedly they include current RoC president), TCs are prevented from participating in any form of international sports or cultural activities, and finally everything possible is being done to keep the sufferings of an economic embargo prevail.

Read the above carefully, and tell me from a TCs perspective why there is growing mistrust at this time, by even the most active preachers of a united island - Mr Talat and many members of his supporting party CTP. After crossing over to South and seeing true state of affairs, they have changed most of their original beliefs - the same is also true for many people who supported the left or had socialist ideas.

can you please stop insisting on the point of Tpap being an eoka b sympathiser. It just shows how little you know the GC communty. Tpap was makarios's prodigy, his right hand man, on the day of the coup Tpap was thrown in jail by eoka-b. This is not a man that took part in makarios's coup. Its like saying Dick Cheney overthrew Bush for Bill Clinton.

The man is an anachronism but not an eoka-b sympathiser.

Well for starters if direct trade is allowed then you'll need an airport and a port. once these getused without the explicit instructions of the lawful govt that will mean that a different govt approved them...this means the trnc is recognised. Why on earth would we encourage the recognition of the trnc? As much as you hate it, we consider north Cyprus an occupied area of our nation where the govt has temporarily lost effective control over. We would never recognise a de facto state imposed on us by the turkish millitary.

[bigOz]

DT wrote:

Well for starters if direct trade is allowed then you'll need an airport and a port. once these get used without the explicit instructions of the lawful govt that will mean that a different govt approved them...this means the trnc is recognised. Why on earth would we encourage the recognition of the trnc? As much as you hate it, we consider north Cyprus an occupied area of our nation where the govt has temporarily lost effective control over. We would never recognise a de facto state imposed on us by the turkish millitary.

We already have two airports and two seaports both of which are extensively used for trade by the TCs. A lot of ships do sail direct to Famagusta. It has nothing to do with recognition. Just like someone said once before, Taiwan trades with many directly without being recognised, so that is not really a very credible argument.

No one in the North really gives a toss what some in the South considers TRNC as. As far as TCs are concerned it is the liberated part of their country where they have been living in peace and the out date RoC government who refused/refuses to abide by its original constitution has no right to demand any control of TRNC. Unless and until there is an agreed settlement for a unified Cyprus of course!

You do not recognise TRNC, TCs do not recognise the South as the legitimate government of the whole of RoC and so it goes on in circles...Meanwhile it is clear that we should just agree to disagree on the subject, and allow time to take its toll.

[Get Real!]

EOKA-B symphatizers are abundantly in existence (allegedly they include current RoC president),

can you please stop insisting on the point of Tpap being an eoka b sympathiser. It just shows how little you know the GC communty. Tpap was makarios's prodigy, his right hand man, on the day of the coup Tpap was thrown in jail by eoka-b. This is not a man that took part in makarios's coup. Its like saying Dick Cheney overthrew Bush for Bill Clinton.

Thanks DiropiTta!

Nothing irritates me more than people who profess to know a subject well yet fail in the most elementary aspects of it!

[DT.]

DT wrote:

Well for starters if direct trade is allowed then you'll need an airport and a port. once these get used without the explicit instructions of the lawful govt that will mean that a different govt approved them...this means the trnc is recognised. Why on earth would we encourage the recognition of the trnc? As much as you hate it, we consider north Cyprus an occupied area of our nation where the govt has temporarily lost effective control over. We would never recognise a de facto state imposed on us by the turkish millitary.

We already have two airports and two seaports both of which are extensively used for trade by the TCs. A lot of ships do sail direct to Famagusta. It has nothing to do with recognition. Just like someone said once before, Taiwan trades with many directly without being recognised, so that is not really a very credible argument.

No one in the North really gives a toss what some in the South considers TRNC as. As far as TCs are concerned it is the liberated part of their country where they have been living in peace and the out date RoC government who refused/refuses to abide by its original constitution has no right to demand any control of TRNC. Unless and until there is an agreed settlement for a unified Cyprus of course!

You do not recognise TRNC, TCs do not recognise the South as the legitimate government of the whole of RoC and so it goes on in circles...Meanwhile it is clear that we should just agree to disagree on the subject, and allow time to take its toll.

I agree with you on the agree to disagree part but we have a difference on the facts. I think everyone in the north gives a toss on what we consider the trnc. If they didn't people like Mr Frommng wouldn't be cursing every day on the wrong path we've taken and how bad it is for both communities. What we consider the trnc is what will be considered by the rest of the world. If we remove our objections you get recognised...simple as that.

[Viewpoint]

A blind man can see this is the wrong policy to adapt. If this was to be likened to a marriage in crisis and the GCs as the husband and us as the wife the marriage counselor would be amazed at the treatment the wife is getting and no doubt would see the marriage as one that is doomed and destined for divorce.

Why aren't you reversing the fact so that you can see the other side's view as well? What if Iraq attacked and occupied 37% of Turkey? What if the Kurds in order to return to Turkey wanted some kind of BBF? What if the Kurds set a similar term like recognition and just offered Turkey just a "promise" that they will accept unification?

I am being pragmatic here and in order to have a serious discussion people need to be pragmatic as well.

As for the "economic turbulance" thing, it is obvious that in the event of a solution the wealthier side will have take the burden for the building of the infrustructure (roads, electricity, major development projects) of the poorer side. It happened in Germany and is bound to happen here. It is obvious also that in the first years of a solution the GCs are bound to lose financially and the TCs to gain. This is a sucrifice that the GC have to make in order to see their country reunified and this need to be explained to the people - in the long run both communities stand to benefit. However, GCs need to realise that they will be called to make a few sacrifises for their COUNTRY and not for the TC community. The latter explains why I disagree with GR andPiratis views on the issue of economy.

askimwos the GCs can see this as payment for imposing embargoes on us for the past 44 years and not allowing us to develop economically. Your point about just the 2 sides sitting down to decide on a joint future, if the TCs are not economically independent can you not see this is impossible? Would the "Roc" be willing to cough up 2/450million us dollars to support the north or wouldnt it be more logical to allow TCs direct trade and flghts so they may stand on their own 2 feet and come to the negotiating table without Turkey.

think its a really risky policy. If you guys become too independent, stop depending on turkey all the time (including coming to the negotiating table without Turkey) then you're in grave danger of being invaded by Turkey. Take it from someone thats been there.

Its a dangerous neighbourhood we live in.

DT how on earth can we be more invaded than we are now? If we cannot stand on our own 2 feet we cannot tell Turkey to go home and you will not be able to get only the 2 sides to the negotiating table.

VP do you believe Turkey would put aside its strategic interests in the area in favour of the will of the TC people? It will always be Turky on the table whatever you or we do. (please do not give me the annan plan acception as an example of the will of the TC people because Turkey's interests were acknowledged, accepted, cemented and legalised in that document.)

Believe me the TCs are not stupid if they could see and believe that their future prosperity and security was better served by uniting with GCs they would make the necessary stand and tell Turkey to go home (with EU and UN backing). Without economical indpendence this stand is to risky as you well know and TCs will not make any moves to rock the boat...if you feel that this is not the case and your only chance is against Turkey then let me tell you DT have absoulutely no chance of getting what you want.

You are shooting yourselves in the foot when you feel TCs cannot make a difference, the only way is to work with us and prove that the past is in the past and we can unite making TCs feel part of the new unity and trust each other moving forward.

As for the AP GCs have demonized it so much that everyone appears to be brainwashed in the south, dont forget its a comprehensive solution brokered by a respected body and backed by 90% of the world, it will serve as a foundation for any further negotiations in the future if we get that far ever again.

[zan]

Viewpoint Wrote:

As for the AP GCs have demonized it so much that everyone appears to be brainwashed in the south, dont forget its a comprehensive solution brokered by a respected body and backed by 90% of the world,

Dont forget that 100% of the EU recognise the "RoC". It seems that they can't always get it right though!!!