Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

Perfectly understandable. UK is already probing this subject and with such a decision in the parliament of the current EU leader, they are bound to support the motion. I think there is real possibility that direct trade will start with the TRNC.

If it does, then hopefully many will see that the relationship between TCs and GCs will get even better. The reduction of troops will obviously follow, but would be immaterial since they have not / are not threatening anyone! In any case, keeping so many troops in Cyprus is also an economic burden for Turkey - I believe they would be happy with just being a "guarantor power", with the right to intervene militarily if GCs ever attacked the TCs.

Since we are assured that GCs have no aspirations of any military activity against the TCs - then it would keep Turkish military away for good, with no worries on GC minds or any danger to the internationally recognised status of Cyprus.

Having done the army i can tell you that armies are positioned in a defensive position 99% of the time (artillery behind infantry in front). The Turkish troops in Cyprus are in a offensive formation (artillery in front and infantry behind).WHile the Cyprus national guard is in a defensive formation. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence that they are not threatening anyone as you say.

I have also done my military service and I am not sure what you are referring to as the artillery being in front of Turkish troops! The closest to any GC along all populated areas and towns are solitary soldiers holding rifles!

The million dollar question is of course: Had the Turkish military ever attacked GCs across the TCs border at any time over the past 33 years?
A simple "yes" or "no" will do if you may...

Yes. They've advanced in Strovillia another 100-200 metres or so. If we had the guts we would have fired a shot, us it happens we didn't and you advanced unhindred.

[DT.]

Perfectly understandable. UK is already probing this subject and with such a decision in the parliament of the current EU leader, they are bound to support the motion. I think there is real possibility that direct trade will start with the TRNC.

If it does, then hopefully many will see that the relationship between TCs and GCs will get even better. The reduction of troops will obviously follow, but would be immaterial since they have not / are not threatening anyone! In any case, keeping so many troops in Cyprus is also an economic burden for Turkey - I believe they would be happy with just being a "guarantor power", with the right to intervene militarily if GCs ever attacked the TCs.

Since we are assured that GCs have no aspirations of any military activity against the TCs - then it would keep Turkish military away for good, with no worries on GC minds or any danger to the internationally recognised status of Cyprus.

Having done the army i can tell you that armies are positioned in a defensive position 99% of the time (artillery behind infantry in front). The Turkish troops in Cyprus are in a offensive formation (artillery in front and infantry behind).WHile the Cyprus national guard is in a defensive formation. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence that they are not threatening anyone as you say.

I have also done my military service and I am not sure what you are referring to as the artillery being in front of Turkish troops! The closest to any GC along all populated areas and towns are solitary soldiers holding rifles!

The million dollar question is of course: Had the Turkish military ever attacked GCs across the TCs border at any time over the past 33 years?
A simple "yes" or "no" will do if you may...

Yes. They've advanced in Strovillia another 100-200 metres or so. If we had the guts we would have fired a shot, us it happens we didn't and you advanced unhindred.

] UN Security Council - Press Release SC/6236
[...]
Through its unanimous adoption of resolution 1062 (1996), the Council deplored the tragic incident of 3 June in which a Greek Cypriot National Guardsman was fatally shot within the United Nations buffer zone. It called on the military authorities of both sides to respect the integrity of the zone, ensure that no further incidents occur along it, prevent hostile actions, including live fire against UNFICYP, grant the Force complete freedom of movement, and cooperate fully with it.
[...]
"3. Deplores the tragic incident involving the fatal shooting of a Greek Cypriot National Guardsman inside the United Nations buffer zone on 3 June 1996, as well as the hindering by Turkish Cypriot soldiers of UNFICYP personnel attempting to assist the National Guardsman and investigate the incident, as documented in the report of the Secretary-General of 7 June 1996;"
[...]
Secretary-General's Reports
[...]
He cites, in particular, an incident in which an unarmed National Guard soldier was shot and killed inside the United Nations buffer zone in central Nicosia. The lethal round was fired by a Turkish Cypriot soldier whom UNFICYP observed entering the buffer zone with his rifle strung across his back. Shortly thereafter, a single shot was heard and the Turkish Cypriot soldier was seen running back to the Turkish cease-fire line. UNFICYP soldiers were prevented for some 25 minutes from reaching the National Guard soldier by Turkish Cypriot soldiers, who fired shots in their direction each time they tried to move forward.

[DT.]

Perfectly understandable. UK is already probing this subject and with such a decision in the parliament of the current EU leader, they are bound to support the motion. I think there is real possibility that direct trade will start with the TRNC.

If it does, then hopefully many will see that the relationship between TCs and GCs will get even better. The reduction of troops will obviously follow, but would be immaterial since they have not / are not threatening anyone! In any case, keeping so many troops in Cyprus is also an economic burden for Turkey - I believe they would be happy with just being a "guarantor power", with the right to intervene militarily if GCs ever attacked the TCs.

Since we are assured that GCs have no aspirations of any military activity against the TCs - then it would keep Turkish military away for good, with no worries on GC minds or any danger to the internationally recognised status of Cyprus.

Having done the army i can tell you that armies are positioned in a defensive position 99% of the time (artillery behind infantry in front). The Turkish troops in Cyprus are in a offensive formation (artillery in front and infantry behind).WHile the Cyprus national guard is in a defensive formation. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence that they are not threatening anyone as you say.

I have also done my military service and I am not sure what you are referring to as the artillery being in front of Turkish troops! The closest to any GC along all populated areas and towns are solitary soldiers holding rifles!

The million dollar question is of course: Had the Turkish military ever attacked GCs across the TCs border at any time over the past 33 years?
A simple "yes" or "no" will do if you may...

Yes. They've advanced in Strovillia another 100-200 metres or so. If we had the guts we would have fired a shot, us it happens we didn't and you advanced unhindred.

] UN Security Council - Press Release SC/6236
[...]
Through its unanimous adoption of resolution 1062 (1996), the Council deplored the tragic incident of 3 June in which a Greek Cypriot National Guardsman was fatally shot within the United Nations buffer zone. It called on the military authorities of both sides to respect the integrity of the zone, ensure that no further incidents occur along it, prevent hostile actions, including live fire against UNFICYP, grant the Force complete freedom of movement, and cooperate fully with it.
[...]
"3. Deplores the tragic incident involving the fatal shooting of a Greek Cypriot National Guardsman inside the United Nations buffer zone on 3 June 1996, as well as the hindering by Turkish Cypriot soldiers of UNFICYP personnel attempting to assist the National Guardsman and investigate the incident, as documented in the report of the Secretary-General of 7 June 1996;"
[...]
Secretary-General's Reports
[...]
He cites, in particular, an incident in which an unarmed National Guard soldier was shot and killed inside the United Nations buffer zone in central Nicosia. The lethal round was fired by a Turkish Cypriot soldier whom UNFICYP observed entering the buffer zone with his rifle strung across his back. Shortly thereafter, a single shot was heard and the Turkish Cypriot soldier was seen running back to the Turkish cease-fire line. UNFICYP soldiers were prevented for some 25 minutes from reaching the National Guard soldier by Turkish Cypriot soldiers, who fired shots in their direction each time they tried to move forward.

few more here BigOz. Thelast one is the best 2 unarmed British soldiers shot at. They escaped but their jeep got damaged. British High Commisison report if you like

http://kypros.org/Embassy/nov96.html

[DT.]

the pattern here is that both times someone got shot by the Turkish soldiers they stand over them firing at the UN until the wounded person dies. I guess there are less witnesses then.

[bigOz]

I am sure you also know that TC soldiers were also shot the same way by the GC military guard - I shall try and get a URL for you if one exists.

I was serving at the very division where the incident you mention in your last paragraph took place, and if I am not mistaken it was some 25 years ago or so in "Kaymakli" part of Nicosia.

It is important you note that all the incidents you refer do do not answer my question because they are not attacks by the Turkish troops on the island, as in a military offensive against the GCs. They would be classified as "border skirmishes". If you served in the army, you should also know that in some parts, there used to be (I do not not now) a physical line drawn separating the buffer zone and the two sets of army posts in close proximity such as in Nicosia.

The standing orders to any sentry along TC borders used to be: First they ask an intruder to stop and ask who he/she is, then they tell them to stand still and drop anything they may be concealing. If they do not abide, you shoot. It is pretty much the same in any army.

The particular event you refer to was a very unfortunate and sad incident that really upset me when I heard about the full details. I will not be lying to you if I said I was at the verge of crying!

The Greek national guard in question had made friends with a TC soldier stationed in the opposite post. This was true for many soldiers at the time who often conversed in English with a good sense of humour (some actually chose to swear at each other but that was rare). Some individuals went to far and ignored military rules by actually crossing over unarmed and passing over cigarettes, fruit, drink, etc to each other. Surprising as it may sound, this happened quite a lot from what I heard.

The posts were the incident took place were 15-20 metres close to each other! The GC guard made friends with a TC guard and they were constantly exchanging things when on duty. On this occasion the normal pattern of guard duty was changed on the TC side and a different (edgy) TC guard who spoke no English was at the post. The GC guard assuming it is his friend at the post as usual, jumped into the buffer zone with whatever was in his hand to pass to his mate and actually crossed the line into the Turkish side. This is when the TC guard warned him (in Turkish) to stop and stand still. The GC guard realised it was someone else and obviously did not understand the warning, panicked and tried to run away - he was shot!

He fell on the Turkish side of the line, was not dead but badly bleeding. Other GC guard kept demanding they were allowed to take him to hospital but the TC commander in charge refused to allow this until the UN observers physically arrived to note that the soldier was shot on the Turkish side. From his perspective, it was very probable GCs would claim the soldier did not cross the line, hence TCs would be blamed for an attack. It did take some half an hour for the UN to arrive, by which time the poor guy bled to death.

And it did not stop there - the GC guard shot a TC guard in his post soon after, as revenge. So now two lives are lost and two families devastated.

I do not know how the whole thing was reported in UN but you can argue until doomsday and will never find the right answer to this dilemma. The sad truth is somebodies' children had died needlessly because of the division on the island.

Your quotes do not support the answer to the question I asked initially!

[DT.]

I am sure you also know that TC soldiers were also shot the same way by the GC military guard - I shall try and get a URL for you if one exists.

I was serving at the very division where the incident you mention in your last paragraph took place, and if I am not mistaken it was some 25 years ago or so in "Kaymakli" part of Nicosia.

It is important you note that all the incidents you refer do do not answer my question because they are not attacks by the Turkish troops on the island, as in a military offensive against the GCs. They would be classified as "border skirmishes". If you served in the army, you should also know that in some parts, there used to be (I do not not now) a physical line drawn separating the buffer zone and the two sets of army posts in close proximity such as in Nicosia.

The standing orders to any sentry along TC borders used to be: First they ask an intruder to stop and ask who he/she is, then they tell them to stand still and drop anything they may be concealing. If they do not abide, you shoot. It is pretty much the same in any army.

The particular event you refer to was a very unfortunate and sad incident that really upset me when I heard about the full details. I will not be lying to you if I said I was at the verge of crying!

The Greek national guard in question had made friends with a TC soldier stationed in the opposite post. This was true for many soldiers at the time who often conversed in English with a good sense of humour (some actually chose to swear at each other but that was rare). Some individuals went to far and ignored military rules by actually crossing over unarmed and passing over cigarettes, fruit, drink, etc to each other. Surprising as it may sound, this happened quite a lot from what I heard.

The posts were the incident took place were 15-20 metres close to each other! The GC guard made friends with a TC guard and they were constantly exchanging things when on duty. On this occasion the normal pattern of guard duty was changed on the TC side and a different (edgy) TC guard who spoke no English was at the post. The GC guard assuming it is his friend at the post as usual, jumped into the buffer zone with whatever was in his hand to pass to his mate and actually crossed the line into the Turkish side. This is when the TC guard warned him (in Turkish) to stop and stand still. The GC guard realised it was someone else and obviously did not understand the warning, panicked and tried to run away - he was shot!

He fell on the Turkish side of the line, was not dead but badly bleeding. Other GC guard kept demanding they were allowed to take him to hospital but the TC commander in charge refused to allow this until the UN observers physically arrived to note that the soldier was shot on the Turkish side. From his perspective, it was very probable GCs would claim the soldier did not cross the line, hence TCs would be blamed for an attack. It did take some half an hour for the UN to arrive, by which time the poor guy bled to death.

And it did not stop there - the GC guard shot a TC guard in his post soon after, as revenge. So now two lives are lost and two families devastated.

I do not know how the whole thing was reported in UN but you can argue until doomsday and will never find the right answer to this dilemma. The sad truth is somebodies' children had died needlessly because of the division on the island.

Your quotes do not support the answer to the question I asked initially!

the offensive at strovillia was a planned millitary offensive which captured more land 30 years after the ceasefire. DOes that asnwer your question, cause i can gather a lot of literature on the subject.

I don't remember any TC soldier being shot I'd genuinely be interested in reading about it if you find it.

[zan]

Controversial Cyprus vote passed



German parliament approves controversial Cyprus vote

THE German Parliament yesterday approved a controversial resolution urging Berlin to take the initiative as current EU president to push for a Cyprus settlement and make progress on direct trade with the north.

The resolution has upset Nicosia which had canvassed for changes to the draft resolution, without much success.

It remains unclear whether the resolution is binding on the German government.

The final text was approved without any amendments by an overwhelming majority in the Bundestag. The Left did not take part in the vote.

Despite some positive references – including calls on Turkey to withdraw its troops from northern Cyprus, the resolution comes as boost to the Talat regime.

Speakers told the debate yesterday they were not pushing for recognition of the breakaway state.

But the resolution calls on the Cyprus government to lift its ban on the ‘parliament’, ‘administration’, public organisations and educational institutions of northern Cyprus so as to allow direct ties with the EU has irked Nicosia.

Ambassador Leonidas Markides had written to the speaker of the Bundestag warning that the resolution, as it stood, would not be helpful to relations between the two countries.

However, the resolution enjoyed the support of the ruling coalition – the Christian Democrats and Social Democrats, and two of the three opposition parties – the Liberals and the Greens.

Two of the 11 articles urge Ankara to proceed with the gradual withdrawal of Turkish troops and to implement the customs union by opening its ports and airports to Cyprus.

Berlin is urged to act to break the deadlock over direct trade with the north and to work with the "administration in north Cyprus to promote gradual harmonisation with the acquis communautaire".
http://www.cyprusweekly.com.cy/default. ... wsID=304_7

Belgium stands for removal of isolations
18.05.2007



Korel De Gucht, the Belgian Minister of Foreign Affairs, when answering a written question tabled in Turkish by Senator Fatma Pehlivan said that they support the removal of the isolations on Turkish Cypriots. De Gucht said that Belgium supports the decisions about the removal taken by the EU in April 2004 and January 2007 and that they wanted the isolation issue on Turkish Cypriots to be resolved quickly and pointed out that Ercan Airport should be opened to international flights.

The Minister emphasised that they also do not approve of the embargos being applied on the Turkish Cypriots in sports and education.
Fatma Pehlivan in her written question asked that a Cyprus, in which Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots live in peace and as equals, is of essential importance for peace in the Eastern Mediterranean. She reminded that the Annan Plan, which was acknowledged as being necessary to solve the disagreement on the island by the whole world, was accepted by a majority of Turkish Cypriots (64.8%), while it was rejected by the majority of Greek Cypriots (75.8%). She stated that the Turkish Cypriots, who voted for the reunification of the island, became isolated in political, cultural and economic areas and she emphasised that the EU’s guaranteed financial support to Northern Cyprus of 259 million euros has not been affected. She inquired as to what Belgium’s attitude was towards the issue.
http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=1660