Cyprus-Forum.com

[alexISS]

Wow...... bunch of hyenas giving each other a good time I see.

Firstly, some facts about Turkey`s EU process ( for those suggesting that Turkey has been begging for 40 years). Turkey has been a European Union (then the EEC, European Economic Community) Associate Member since 1964. Formal application to join the European Community—the organization that has since developed into the European Union—was made on April 14th, 1987 but the decision to consider Turkey's application was deferred until 1993, because the European Community was in the process of becoming the European Union. She was officially recognized as a candidate for membership on December 12th, 1999 (technically 6 years after their application) at the Helsinki summit of the European Council. On 31 December 1995 the customs union between Turkey and the European Union came into effect. There are estimated to be close to 5 million Turks already living in Europe (almost half the population Greece) and I am not even going to start with cultural and social affiliations such as UEFA, scientific programs such as Erasmus and etc…. Last but not least, it is very important to highlight that there does not exist a country in the history of the EU accession process that has become a candidate and not made full EU member .

Have no worries about Turkey. If you read their history you’ll find out that the troubles you wish to reflect upon are an afternoon walk in the park for them. True there is some skepticism about Turkey`s EU membership process after Sarkozy`s election. I`m not going to go into detail on this. However, there are two facts that can not be disputed: (1) Sarkozy is the president not the immortal and everlasting King of France (2) The EU can not and will not afford to loose Turkey either as a member or not. Turkey, which has already achieved a cumulative growth rate of 35 percent in the last four years, will soon become the sixth largest economy of Europe. The pace and depth of reform in Turkey complements this huge economic growth. They have a young population, that, combined with the size of the country, and its growth rates, constitutes a major dynamism and a good opportunity for the EU. They have the most powerful Army in the region (ranking second largest after U.S. in NATO and the strongest in the Muslim world) which constitutes a vital alliance in a region of major instability. They are very competitive in science and research (chapter 25 on Science and Research in the EU negotiation process is already closed). They add a considerable weight to EU multi-culturalism efforts and might help to prevent potential scenarios involving a clash of civilizations (not to mention that they are the only country on the face of the planet that combines secularity and democracy with Islam ). With the Russians stepping on the throat of Europe on energy, Europe needs access to the virgin resources of the Caucasuses and the richest oil fields on the face of the planet in the Middle East through Turkey. Major aspect of being a super-power in this world is the rate of dominance over energy resources. The EU has not an ounce of weight on the politics or the future of neither the Middle East or the Caucasuses. Turkey is a major partner for EU`s access to these regions in terms of geopolicy, cultural ties and military and economic alliance. In short EU needs Turkey on her side (either in the EU or not) to be a global power in the future.

As far as the Sharia law goes…. what can I say, keep on dreaming. AKP is not an implication. To the contrary it is the perfect evidence why Turkey will not slip into Islamic fundamentalism. AKP used to be Fazilet. Fazilet was right-wing religious and their vote was about 4%. In 2001 reformists in Fazilet parted and formed AKP. AKP declared allegiance to democratic and secular regime and their votes boosted. There are still some doubts pertaining to some of their people due to their past in Fazilet and that is what the whole fuss was about during last month, so don`t get your hopes up. Sharia is as likely as Papadopoulos joining the TMT because it is not the military that protects the regime it is the people.

So, no matter how loud the EU screams that it doesn't want Turkey, you'll insist she does... The USA have political power, control over oil and LOTS of cheap workers without making Turkey an American state. The science chapter is typical, the fact that Turkey closed it doesn't give you bragging rights, Bulgaria and Romania did it too. A "clash of civilizations" is not an issue concerning the EU, because the EU (minus the UK - soon to change too) keeps herself out of such clashes. Besides, Turkey is not quite popular in the Arab world, I would say even Greece or Cyprus are more popular. Finally, the EU does not need to make Turkey a member to ensure the passage of oil. Turkey would never just cut off oil access mainly because it would be catastrophic for her. Besides, even as a non-member, Turkey will definately accept a "privileged partnership" with the EU.

Finally, the candidacy does not ensure entry, as much as it pisses Turkey, "tiny" Cyprus can veto anytime she wants and there will be nothing Turkey can do about it

[zan]

And the eastern block countries were welcomed with open arms. Even the UK had a hard time of it so it seems that all this shouting is just par for the course.

You cannot just keep dismissing all the sites I provide as being rubbish; it just points to desperation. Sorry but you guys think that the entire world wants you because you are Greek and the opposite for us. You seem to be living in a very insular world.

[alexISS]

And the eastern block countries were welcomed with open arms. Even the UK had a hard time of it so it seems that all this shouting is just par for the course.

What are you talking about? Yes, they were welcomed with open arms, especially if compared with Turkey

You cannot just keep dismissing all the sites I provide as being rubbish;

Do you mean that, by law, some of the sites you provide will not be rubbish? It's not my fault that your opinions relate to such sites, it's yours. Why can't you just provide an official site that has info on "basket case" Greece and her economy before the EU entry? Or a respected historian's quote on the non-Greekness of ancient macedonians or the "Macedonianness" of modern FYROMians? Because you can't, rubbish is all you can provide. Still waiting for your elaboration on the "Cretan issue" and your sources on the number one worldwide Greek racism

[Jerry]

observer, Turkey had the right to intervene only to restore constitutional order, and not for anything else. What they did was a full scale invasion and ethnic cleansing. Therefore not only they didn't fulfill their obligation as a guarantor power, but on the contrary they violated that treaty, and they continue to violate it for the last 32 years. What Turkey did and does in Cyprus is clearly not their right which is why their occupation of Cyprus is illegal, as is the pseudo state they declared.

And which government were they to hand the country back to???????

When Turkish troops landed in Cyprus Turkey had the choice of insisting that the 1960 constitution was restored, she had the upper hand, the junta had collapsed and Clerides would have had no option but to restore the government as envisaged by the Zurich agreement. But no she continuously broke the cease fire and then conquered more than one third of the island. Turkey achieved her long standing ambition, partition and a military presence in Cyprus. If you believe anything else Zan then you are a bloody fool and don't give us this crap about being victimised by GCs in the 60s, you the TCs were as much to blame for the inter communal strife as the GCs. Denky and his nationalist mates were quite happy to provoke the GCs at your expense so that the "poor victims" needed to be "rescued" by Turkey. Yes you probably did suffer more than the GCs before "rescue" but that's the whole point you are a minority, outnumbered by 4 to 1. When you stop swaggering around trying to be equal (as a community and not individually) to the GCs and you stop hiding behind Turkey's skirt then we might just have a chance of solving the Cyprus Problem otherwise you will be swallowed up by Turkey and the community that is so important to you will disappear.

Makarios tries to outsmart the world with his little island mentality and tries to wipe us out and you call that inter-communal conflict. Makarios' army against a civilian public. He then loses control to a Greek lead junta and has failure after failure as far as the TCs are concerned and you expect us to just say "please try again". The UN stood and watched as GCs killed my people. The UK and did the same and we were supposed to just hand it back to a non-existent government to try again.


When Turkey moved a second time and took the rest of what we have today it was because talks had broken down again. You really need to get in the moment to understand what was going on before spouting off irrelevant rubbish.

You're talking crap Zan, "wipe us out" my arse! A few hundred on both sides died in inter communal figthing. There are more poor buggers blown to bits in one month in Iraq than Cypriots killed between 1960 and 1974. Yes what happened to the victims on both sides was wrong and very sad but don't use this hysterical "wipe us out" nonesense to try and justify your position. The talks broke down because Turkey wanted them to, I remember those days well, every day Turkey was landing more and more troops, the talks gave her time to do this and then when Turkey was ready the talks broke down - what a coincidence.
If you don't want to "hand it back" that's fine - keep a fair share of Cyprus, give it to Turkey (she will take it anyway) and let most of the GCs (50,000 in Varosha) return home

[pitsilos]

zan the eastern countries weren't considered, and i know you hate the term, 3rd world economies with 3rd world mentalities to boot just remember no imf loans, well not occupying the glorious number 2 spot...

btw still waiting for you to prove to me which country pulled out of the shit after massive loans from the imf, not alone occupying he number 2 spot...

ps...yes i do work but unlike you i ain't a one man band...and no offence with this one..just answering your question as you asked whether i work...i was working just then with the us time zone

and now I am off to bed

goodnight all

[zan]

And the eastern block countries were welcomed with open arms. Even the UK had a hard time of it so it seems that all this shouting is just par for the course.

What are you talking about? Yes, they were welcomed with open arms, especially if compared with Turkey

You cannot just keep dismissing all the sites I provide as being rubbish;

Do you mean that, by law, some of the sites you provide will not be rubbish? It's not my fault that your opinions relate to such sites, it's yours. Why can't you just provide an official site that has info on "basket case" Greece and her economy before the EU entry? Or a respected historian's quote on the non-Greekness of ancient macedonians or the "Macedonianness" of modern FYROMians? Because you can't, rubbish is all you can provide. Still waiting for your elaboration on the "Cretan issue" and your sources on the number one worldwide Greek racism

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhist ... cution.asp

[Jerry]

Murataga I hope you are right about Turkey's importance to the EU. All the while the application to join is alive and kicking then Cyprus has leverage. The moment the application fails the Cyprus problem will become a stalemate. So I say "Go for it Turkey, never give up your EU aspirations"

P.S. It will probably mean that Turkey will crap on the Turkish Cypriots to get in, you would have thought the TCs would have figured that out by now.

[zan]

observer, Turkey had the right to intervene only to restore constitutional order, and not for anything else. What they did was a full scale invasion and ethnic cleansing. Therefore not only they didn't fulfill their obligation as a guarantor power, but on the contrary they violated that treaty, and they continue to violate it for the last 32 years. What Turkey did and does in Cyprus is clearly not their right which is why their occupation of Cyprus is illegal, as is the pseudo state they declared.

And which government were they to hand the country back to???????

When Turkish troops landed in Cyprus Turkey had the choice of insisting that the 1960 constitution was restored, she had the upper hand, the junta had collapsed and Clerides would have had no option but to restore the government as envisaged by the Zurich agreement. But no she continuously broke the cease fire and then conquered more than one third of the island. Turkey achieved her long standing ambition, partition and a military presence in Cyprus. If you believe anything else Zan then you are a bloody fool and don't give us this crap about being victimised by GCs in the 60s, you the TCs were as much to blame for the inter communal strife as the GCs. Denky and his nationalist mates were quite happy to provoke the GCs at your expense so that the "poor victims" needed to be "rescued" by Turkey. Yes you probably did suffer more than the GCs before "rescue" but that's the whole point you are a minority, outnumbered by 4 to 1. When you stop swaggering around trying to be equal (as a community and not individually) to the GCs and you stop hiding behind Turkey's skirt then we might just have a chance of solving the Cyprus Problem otherwise you will be swallowed up by Turkey and the community that is so important to you will disappear.

Makarios tries to outsmart the world with his little island mentality and tries to wipe us out and you call that inter-communal conflict. Makarios' army against a civilian public. He then loses control to a Greek lead junta and has failure after failure as far as the TCs are concerned and you expect us to just say "please try again". The UN stood and watched as GCs killed my people. The UK and did the same and we were supposed to just hand it back to a non-existent government to try again.


When Turkey moved a second time and took the rest of what we have today it was because talks had broken down again. You really need to get in the moment to understand what was going on before spouting off irrelevant rubbish.

You're talking crap Zan, "wipe us out" my arse! A few hundred on both sides died in inter communal figthing. There are more poor buggers blown to bits in one month in Iraq than Cypriots killed between 1960 and 1974. Yes what happened to the victims on both sides was wrong and very sad but don't use this hysterical "wipe us out" nonesense to try and justify your position. The talks broke down because Turkey wanted them to, I remember those days well, every day Turkey was landing more and more troops, the talks gave her time to do this and then when Turkey was ready the talks broke down - what a coincidence.
If you don't want to "hand it back" that's fine - keep a fair share of Cyprus, give it to Turkey (she will take it anyway) and let most of the GCs (50,000 in Varosha) return home

And the Greeks come out as saints once again.

[Jerry]

observer, Turkey had the right to intervene only to restore constitutional order, and not for anything else. What they did was a full scale invasion and ethnic cleansing. Therefore not only they didn't fulfill their obligation as a guarantor power, but on the contrary they violated that treaty, and they continue to violate it for the last 32 years. What Turkey did and does in Cyprus is clearly not their right which is why their occupation of Cyprus is illegal, as is the pseudo state they declared.

And which government were they to hand the country back to???????

When Turkish troops landed in Cyprus Turkey had the choice of insisting that the 1960 constitution was restored, she had the upper hand, the junta had collapsed and Clerides would have had no option but to restore the government as envisaged by the Zurich agreement. But no she continuously broke the cease fire and then conquered more than one third of the island. Turkey achieved her long standing ambition, partition and a military presence in Cyprus. If you believe anything else Zan then you are a bloody fool and don't give us this crap about being victimised by GCs in the 60s, you the TCs were as much to blame for the inter communal strife as the GCs. Denky and his nationalist mates were quite happy to provoke the GCs at your expense so that the "poor victims" needed to be "rescued" by Turkey. Yes you probably did suffer more than the GCs before "rescue" but that's the whole point you are a minority, outnumbered by 4 to 1. When you stop swaggering around trying to be equal (as a community and not individually) to the GCs and you stop hiding behind Turkey's skirt then we might just have a chance of solving the Cyprus Problem otherwise you will be swallowed up by Turkey and the community that is so important to you will disappear.

Makarios tries to outsmart the world with his little island mentality and tries to wipe us out and you call that inter-communal conflict. Makarios' army against a civilian public. He then loses control to a Greek lead junta and has failure after failure as far as the TCs are concerned and you expect us to just say "please try again". The UN stood and watched as GCs killed my people. The UK and did the same and we were supposed to just hand it back to a non-existent government to try again.


When Turkey moved a second time and took the rest of what we have today it was because talks had broken down again. You really need to get in the moment to understand what was going on before spouting off irrelevant rubbish.

You're talking crap Zan, "wipe us out" my arse! A few hundred on both sides died in inter communal figthing. There are more poor buggers blown to bits in one month in Iraq than Cypriots killed between 1960 and 1974. Yes what happened to the victims on both sides was wrong and very sad but don't use this hysterical "wipe us out" nonesense to try and justify your position. The talks broke down because Turkey wanted them to, I remember those days well, every day Turkey was landing more and more troops, the talks gave her time to do this and then when Turkey was ready the talks broke down - what a coincidence.
If you don't want to "hand it back" that's fine - keep a fair share of Cyprus, give it to Turkey (she will take it anyway) and let most of the GCs (50,000 in Varosha) return home

And the Greeks come out as saints once again.

Yep! you're right again Zan

[zan]

See my government for details but 50,000 return to Varosha and you lift the embargoes. Just in case you missed it this is called negosiating unlike what TPap wants to do.


And yes I mean wipe us out. If there were nothing to stop him, Makarios would have done exactly that. I have no doubt of that in my mind. I see TPap in the same light.