Cyprus-Forum.com

[alexISS]

I hate stating the obvious, but this mr Ghandi is not an independent "individual" collecting information and doing "research"

[Piratis]

I hate stating the obvious, but this mr Ghandi is not an independent "individual" collecting information and doing "research"

It is now more obvious than ever. Ghanti had stated "In 1974 at its peak there was genocide and the CT were in grave danger.Turkey came and stopped this murder." I proved that this was false and nobody could counter my arguments. But this "researcher" instead of acknowledging that he was wrong, he got very very upset that his propaganda was shot down and that was reflected in his last post where he totally drops the mask.

[Ghandi]

If no TC was killed 7 years prior to the invasion then the TC have got it all wrong and have been lied to.

i think that Zan is not accepting some og the TC faults after 74 and PIStaris is mixing up Turks and tc.

Any evidence that Agastinios is employed by turket and what about the Dead zone have u read it u should ?

Also Pigtalis there is a big difference between intellectual integrity and hate.

I do like GC just not ones like Pigtalis.I will make my reasearch and if no turk was killed in 74 my opinion will change.

I have said that my opinion can change that Zan is not accepting of some of the TC faults and that i like gc people.

i have asked many questions that have not been answered and if i am not trying to do reasearch why am i asking these questions.What am i a spy of some sought.

i am just someone that is trying to learn and realise that it can not be done when people dont give information that they r asked for.

Pigatisis was asked for a blow by blow account of 74 i have asked if he has read the dead zone and his thoughts on it any why Tony is employed by Turkey and is yet to respond.Any one have this knowledge i am eager to hear it.

i dont know the truth yet but i do realise that some GC are rude,evasive and paranoid on occasions.

the`tc seem to be unaccountable and unfair on ocassions

[Ghandi]

also Pigtalis or any other GC or TC i am strarting to think that it was not a genocide in 74,thanks but i need more evidence and time to learn before i know what it was.can you provide any ?

[Piratis]

If no TC was killed 7 years prior to the invasion then the TC have got it all wrong and have been lied to.

Can you explain that please? GCs have been killed by the Turks for centuries, including 7 years prior the invasion. Are you saying that it was fine to kill and oppress GCs, but when some TCs were killed as well, that would justify the occupation of Cyprus and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people?

Also can you please explain to me how the Turks remembered those conflicts where both TCs and GCs had about the same amount of losses, in order to invade Cyprus 7 whole years later?

The invasion had nothing to do with what happened 7 years before. The excuse for the invasion was the coup.

i think that Zan is not accepting some og the TC faults after 74 and PIStaris is mixing up Turks and tc.

How exactly am I mixing up Turks and TCs more than you mix GCs and Greeks? The coup of 1974, which was the excuse for the invasion, was carried out by the Greek junta. How could that justify the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 innocent Cypriots?

Any evidence that Agastinios is employed by turket and what about the Dead zone have u read it u should ?

Agastinotis posted recently here: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11144 He is employed by a Turkish university in the occupied Cyprus and he also lives there.

I am not saying that everything that he wrote is wrong. What I said is that he is presenting things from one sided (Turkish) viewpoint. For example he would talk about the suffering of TCs in great length and say close to nothing about the suffering of GCs. If you want the GC viewpoint is definitely not Agastiniotis that you should be reading.

Also Pigtalis there is a big difference between intellectual integrity and hate.

Hate is a natural feeling. If somebody not only committed a crime against you, but he continues to commit it without a sign of regret, then obviously you can not love that somebody.
Personally I support that respect should be shown and the human and legal rights of everybody should be respected. To those that respect me and my rights receive respect in return from me (regardless of their race or ethnic background). Those on the other hand that do not show even the minimum required respect and they instead insist on illegalities and crimes, then the last thing those people can complain about is that they are not loved by their victims.

do like GC just not ones like Pigtalis.I will make my reasearch and if no turk was killed in 74 my opinion will change.

You are free to like me or not like me. I don't even mind to if you call me names. What you don't have the right to do is to violate my human rights.
What I said about 1974, is that no TCs was killed in 74 until the invasion stared. Yes, after the invasion started, which killed 1000s of Greek Cypriots, a few 100s of TCs were killed as well.

I am not saying this to excuse the killing of those TCs, but to make it clear that it is a Turkish myth that the invasion in 1974 started to stop the killings of TCs. The invasion of 1974 happened because Turkey found the coup as a good excuse to put into action her plans and grab 1/3rd of Cyprus. Everything else are cheap excuses.

i have asked many questions that have not been answered and if i am not trying to do reasearch why am i asking these questions.What am i a spy of some sought.

i am just someone that is trying to learn and realise that it can not be done when people dont give information that they r asked for.

Pigatisis was asked for a blow by blow account of 74 i have asked if he has read the dead zone and his thoughts on it any why Tony is employed by Turkey and is yet to respond.Any one have this knowledge i am eager to hear it.

I have already wrote to you the summary of what happened in 1974 as it relates to this thread. If you want the events in great detail then you have to make your own research using various and at least somewhat objective sources (since a perfectly objective source probably doesn't exist) and then come to your own collusions. Here is a relatively neutral source: http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/

i dont know the truth yet but i do realise that some GC are rude,evasive and paranoid on occasions.

You started calling me names (and you continue to do so) simply because you didn't like the historical facts I gave, and then you accuse me of being rude? I am not saying I am the most polite person in the world, but I believe that compared to the way you have talk to me I am very polite to you.

[Piratis]

also Pigtalis or any other GC or TC i am strarting to think that it was not a genocide in 74,thanks but i need more evidence and time to learn before i know what it was.can you provide any ?

Those that should provide evidence are those that make the claims. What I can tell you is that in 1974 6000 GCs were killed, and a few 100s of TCs as well. Now I don't know on what basis somebody can claim that a few 100s of TCs being killed constitutes a genocide, but the killing of several 1000s of GCs does not.

Maybe it is the same people that claim that "one Turk equals the whole world" that make such claims. It perfectly matches their racist attitude.

[Get Real!]

I do like GC just not ones like Pigtalis.I will make my reasearch and if no turk was killed in 74 my opinion will change.

i have asked many questions that have not been answered and if i am not trying to do reasearch why am i asking these questions.What am i a spy of some sought.

i am just someone that is trying to learn and realise that it can not be done when people dont give information that they r asked for.

i dont know the truth yet but i do realise that some GC are rude,evasive and paranoid on occasions.

You twist people's aliases to suit your childish mind and you then wonder why nobody answers your questions? On top of that you complain about some GC's being rude?

I'm shocked that Piratis even bothers with a two-faced clown like you.

[miltiades]

also Pigtalis or any other GC or TC i am strarting to think that it was not a genocide in 74,thanks but i need more evidence and time to learn before i know what it was.can you provide any ?

Just curious to learn , in which language will you note your esteemed findings , Not in English surely !

[zan]

Try this Ghandi
After the Deluge: A Turkish Cypriot=s View in 1976

While many Turkish Cypriots in the mid-1970s may have wanted a federation, and quite a few more probably have drifted to that view since then, it must be recalled that a large number, and probably a majority, welcomed the Turkish intervention and the protection of a distinct and largely homogeneous Turkish Cyprus. Their arguments are well summarized in these AResearch Notes@ by Latife Birgen, a life-long resident and British-trained scientist. Dr. Birgen worked for a brief time in the Turkish Cypriot administration.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE CYPRUS PROBLEM

by Dr. L. Birgen

The study of a problem would not be complete without establishing the correlation between cause and effect. In seeking a solution of the Cyprus question, one should consider the events leading up to it in the light of recent history.

Just after the Second World War the Greek Orthodox Church in Cyprus under Archbishop Makarios used its vast resources to unleash a campaign, not in order to get independence but to unite Cyprus with Greece. The Church then followed up this political agitation with setting up and financing the terrorist organization, Eoka, in order to achieve its aim.

Now, a look at the map should convince anybody of the total irrelevance of Cyprus to Greece. Cyprus under Greece would be a distant, a very distant, province of that country. As with geography decrying such a notion, so with history, for never has Cyprus belonged to Greece.

The Turkish Community has always resolutely opposed the Enosis movement. That Greek Cypriots have shown no regard for Turkish rights, is immediately obvious when one considers that in the name of Enosis they have thought nothing of trying to cut, at a stroke, the Turkish proportion down to half a per cent of the population. It would be grossly unjust to the Turkish Community, the identity of which would be submerged under the sheer weight of numbers with the addition of the population of Greece. For the Turkish Cypriots the picture is that of a Greece stretching its long octopus-like arms in order to grab Cyprus as well. Nor have the Turkish Cypriots forgotten the fate of Turks in the Greek islands like Crete.
After years of sufferings and murders inflicted on the island by Eoka, Makarios seemed to settle tor independence. Turkish Cypriots too favoured independence, but had great misgivings about the genuineness of the Archbishop's change of heart. After lengthy negotiations both sides agreed and signed for an independent Cyprus with a constitution providing checks and balances to ensure power-sharing between the two communities. To guard against upsetting the constitution or any unilateral change of the Status quo, the Treaty of Guarantee empowered the guarator powers Turkey, Greece and England in the first instance to consult among themselves and then to act jointly or separately in the exercise of that power. Had the Greeks implemented the agreement faithfully, Cyprus would now be basking in the sunshine of independence. But the period 1963-1974 witnessed the Greek side dismantling the building blocks of the constitution, the cornerstone of independence.

Soon after the establishment of the Cyprus Republic the Greek Cypriots sought to control the Turkish municipalities and establish domination over the Turkish Cypriots, which of course was neither in the letter nor the spirit of the Treaty. This attempt culminated in the widespread Greek onslaught on Turks in 1963. One of the first to be attacked was a Turkish home in Nicosia, where the Greeks brutally murdered a Turkish Army doctor's wife and three little children, and dumped them in a bath-tub. Many civilian Turks, men, women, children, were slaughtered all over the island. Hundreds of Turks were abducted while crossing the Greek areas to go to their businesses, and they were never seen again. Not one Greek was punished for these dastardly and heinous murders by the Greek Cypriot Administration masquerading as the Government of Cyprus. Unprepared for all this, the Turks felt the need to withdraw to enclaves where they would be more secure. Those who still had to cross Greek-held territory just had to take their lives in their hands. Before setting out they would take tearful leave of their families just like those going on a perilous journey.

Makarios usurped all power in spite of the bi-communal nature of the constitution. He presented himself on the world stage as a smiling priest-statesman, the constitutional head of Cyprus, while at home he persecuted the Turks and divested them of their constitutional and human rights. The injustices done to the Turks for the following eleven years or so were myriad. Many of them either abandoned their homes and properties, or were driven out of them, and had to take refuge in the refugee camps in the Turkish enclave of Nicosia. There were some twenty-four thousand of them. Their plight and cries of anguish went unheeded. When some of them from Ormorphita, a suburb of Nicosia, wanted to take the risk of going back to their looted homes the response from the Greek side transmitted through the local Greek Press was historic, "what is taken after bloodshed is not given back." Ironically, the blood in question was that of the defenceless Turkish Cypriot residents of Ormorphita. It was to remain a ghost town for eleven years until liberated by the Turkish Peace Force in August, 1974.

Besides physical and political persecution the Turks also suffered economic persecution. For example, near Kyrenia the Greeks grabbed the commercial fruit and vegetable garden of a Turkish peasant and cut down the trees to set up a military barrack there, turning it into a parched and barren land. In contrast the Greek-owned gardens around remained green and untouched. The Turkish owner got not a penny of compensation. Again, when the new Kyrenia-Nicosia road was being built, parts of the fields through which the road passed were unceremoniously confiscated. The Turkish peasants who lost chunks of their fields and livelihoods in this way got no compensation at all, while their Greek counterparts were promptly and fully compensated. It was useless for the Turks to protest, as they could get no redress.Bir take noteIn his own country the Turkish Cypriot was less than a foreigner: the Turk had far fewer rights, like those of life, limb, property. It was the active national policy of the Makarios's Administration to deprive Turks of their lands by any means, fair or foul. It is an indication of the Greek sense of justice and compatriotship that some unscrupulous foreigners were even encouraged to (harass Turkish villagers living in Greek-held areas in order to buy off their lands. Any foreigner who succeeded in that would win immediate favour with the Makarios regime. The Turks, who have always been largely an agricultural Community living off the land, have traditionally owned a high proportion of land in Cyprus, and this was a sty in the eye for the Greeks claiming Cyprus to be Greek. Any Greek who wanted to sell his land or house to a Turk would incur the wrath of the Greek Authorities. Such a transaction would not be sanctioned by the Greek-run Land Registration Department, which would refuse to issue a deed of title, an odd behaviour indeed by those proclaiming to be the Government of Cyprus.Ring any bells with what is happening today. Do not forget this was written in 1967

All these happened during the regime of Archbishop Makarios. Many Turks who could not stand the conditions of life sold up what little they had, at what little price they could get, and emigrated. To the Greek Administration, this was, after all, the point of the exercise.

Even the money given to Cyprus by international bodies was kept exclusively for Greeks. As the Turkish Community got weaker and weaker through various restrictive measures and pressures, the Greek side felt that Enosis was within their grasp. Two prominent schools of political thought emerged among the Greeks. The one was for immediate Enosis. But Makarios, who belonged to the second school, had a better idea. He calculated that the Turkish element in Cyprus should be eroded away in time and Enosis could be achieved stealthily step by step. Rather than declare immediate Enosis and provoke a violent Turkish reaction he would first pressurize the Turkish Community into poverty and powerlessness, while at the same time he would present the Greek administration to the world as the constitutional Government of Cyprus. In order to help his international image he would pretend at negotiating with the Turkish Community ostensibly to restore their constitutional rights. He accordingly dilly-dallied over points, ensuring that these negotiations dragged on for eleven years and came to nothing! TPap TPap TPap!!!!

While the Greek community enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks, the Turkish community, forced into a ghetto-like existence, was getting desperate, and would soon be, Makarios hoped, too weak to oppose Enosis. But the Enosis-now boys were getting impatient. They were none too impressed by Makarios's step-by-step approach to Enosis: it was there for the taking. They were convinced Turkey would not intervene; a few noises by Greece would suffice to keep her off! They demanded immediate action. So they fell out with Makarios, not over the aim of Enosis but its timing and tactic. The Enosis boys together with the Greek army in Cyprus staged a coup. What have been the attitudes of the parent powers throughout the chequered history of the Cyprus Republic? From 1963 onwards, when Makarios trampled upon the constitution, which was based on close cooperation and partnership between the two communities, the guarantor powers unfortunately did not step in to restore the constitution. Greece of course was delighted with the turn of events, for, with the Turkish Community pushed aside, the way to Enosis was now wide open. Britain lodged a verbal protest, but was reassured by 'His Beatitude' that the status of the British bases was not affected in any way. After the coup in 1974 Britain protested again only to be reassured by the new upstart Greek Leaders in Cyprus that nothing had really changed; it was just a little internal difficulty! The British bases were certainly not affected. But, as far as the Turkish Community was concerned, something HAD changed. Whereas before the coup there was still hope that the slide to Enosis might yet be arrested and Cyprus' independence be salvaged. With the coup the point of no return had almost been reached. Yes, that was the real change. Britain was not prepared to use force. But if nothing was done now the independence of Cyprus, or whatever was left of it, would be gone for ever. So Turkey acted. But for Turkey's intervention Cyprus would now be, to all intents and purposes, an appendage of Greece. The future of the Turkish Community would be bleak; it would be doomed. Turkey honoured her pledge to the Turkish Cypriots to come to their aid if need be. She did this with great sacrifices of blood and money, even at the risk of straining her alliances, which she once valued without question.

The Greek propaganda machine has craftily portrayed Turkey as the would-be colonizer of Cyprus. In fact Turkey has no territorial ambitions. Turkey's motive is two-fold. Firstly, she was duty-bound to defend the Turkish Community and the independence of Cyprus. Secondly, she views the current revival of Greece's 'Great Idea' with grave concern because with Greece annexing Cyprus, the Greek encirclement of Turkey would be complete. . . . What Turkey now wants in Cyprus is the establishment of a bi-zonal federation, which would make each community strong in its own zone, so that never again will it be necessary to mount such a costly operation in order to safeguard the independence of Cyprus.

If Makarios was genuinely for independence, then why did he persecute and oppress the Turkish Cypriot Community? The right thing for him to do would have been to make common cause with the Turkish Community, a natural ally for him against Enosis. Nor can Greece shake off her responsibility in the Enosis troubles merely by a change of government. But, the lion's share for the blame must surely be attached to Makarios, for if he had not unilaterally abrogated the constitution, no matter how much Greece covetted Cyprus, so long as the two communities shared effective power, the Cyprus tragedy could not have taken place.

All the Cypriots suffered in this tragedy. In 1974 the world heard how whole Turkish villages, Maratha, Aloa and Sandallaris were massacred -- men, women and children. They were then all buried in a rubbish dump and bulldozed over. Their putrefying bodies were later dug out in the presence of U.N. troops and world press. In yet another Turkish village all adult males were arrested by the Greeks, taken to a quiet spot, offered cigarettes, and then machine-gunned in cold blood. Only one young man escaped, feigning death, and made his way to a British base, giving the exact locality of the massacre. The Greek authorities did not allow the U.N. to investigate. But such killings had been going on since 1963. The fact that many of the Turkish Cypriots were scattered all over the island afforded the Greeks the temptation to exterminate them by raids, ambushes, and kidnappings. Many perished in this way. It was nothing short of genocide.
Their majority rights do not entitle the Greeks to exterminate the Turks. No doubt that they would try to do it again if given half a chance. So the Turkish Cypriot stand on the future of Cyprus must be conditioned by the needs and mechanics of survival. They are not going to give hostages to fortune. The Turks in the south, who had enjoyed neither security of life nor property, were transferred en-masse to the north as a result of an agreement reached in the third round of Vienna talks, so they are now safely settled in the Turkish zone with the rest of the Turkish Cypriot Community. This in itself is a stabilizing factor in the situation. The bitter experiences have driven the Turkish Cypriot Community to the inevitable conclusion that they can only survive in a defensible and economically viable area of their own, as the Turkish wing of a bi-zonal Federal Republic of Cyprus. In the new Cyprus the two communities shall liive in their respective zones according to their own customs and traditions, respecting each other and not trying to exterminate nor dominate one another, but both cooperating to run the island on an equal footing.

In the past Makarios succeeded in exploiting Britain's interest in the British bases in Cyprus and the existence of the Greek lobby in the American Congress in securing British and American support for Greek Cypriots in the Cyprus dispute. It is believed that the inherent vulnerability and weakness of the British bases in the island will be a constant source of temptation for him to exploit in his intrigues against Turks, hence a de-stabilizing factor in the Cyprus situation. In the new order to be worked out in Cyprus, it should be spelt out that no one community can go to world organizations claiming that it alone represents and speaks for Cyprus.
A strong Turkish Community is the best guarantee internally, but the only effective guarantee for Cyprus' independence is the Turkish guarantee.

Nicosia -- February 13, 1976.


http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/birgen,% ... 201976.htm

[Sotos]

Zan forgot to highlight the most important thing Dr. Birgen worked for a brief time in the Turkish Cypriot administration.