Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

I have a suggestion to make to everyone here:

Let's use this forum to write a revised Peace Plan. We will each give our suggestions to different aspects of the solution (Security, Property, Territory, Governance, Settlers, Education, the Economy, Guarantees, Legal Status, Social Integration and so on), and through discussion reach a finalised version. If the Plan is credible enough, I will put it through "mock-referenda" on both sides (with samples of 1000 GCs and 1000 TCs) and if it gets a "Yes" from both communities then we can present it to our leaders, to the EU and to the UN.


Rules for the thread:

-The discussion here will be about a bizonal-bicommunal Federation. If someone wants to discuss another type of solution (eg Unitary, Two State), then he should start another thread. I have nothing against other types of solution, but it will be impossible to stay focused if we let ourselves stray away a basic common framework of discussion.

- The discussion will use the Annan Plan as a reference point. This does not mean "submitting to the Annan Plan", by no means, but all our suggestions should (if possible) start with "the Annan Plan is like this but we should change it to something like this". The reason for this is that our Plan will be taken more seriously by leaders if it is seen as a revision of the Annan Plan. If someone takes up the role of copy/pasting relevant segments of the Annan Plan whenever needed, so that we can see how to amend them, it would be most useful.

- Rumbling conversations should be avoided. This thread is not the appropriate place to solve our philosophical differences. If for instance, we end up disagreeing on the issue of settlers, we should just say "I disagree, the maximum compromise for me is ..." and leave it at that. We should not start saying "don't forget that these are humans too", "No, it is a violation of international law" and so on. If you feel the itch for a general chat, just go and set up another thread ...

So, what do people think? Who would wish to work on this project?

[Piratis]

Here is my proposal of some time ago. It is not based on the Annan plan because the Annan plan is not a true federation but an association of two mainly independent states.

As I always say, the final solution should create an independent, federal, democratic united Cyprus.

Independent:
Cypriots should be the only ones that can take decisions for Cyprus. Everything of course should be within the rules and spirit of EU. The UN and EU can guarantee our new state, but not Greece, Turkey, UK or other separate countries. Ideally, no foreign country should maintain troops in Cyprus, but an agreement can be reached for small armies to continue to be based here, but without the right to intervene.

Federal:
We will have a federal system. Each community will have its own state with its own police, educational system etc. Within this state the majority of residents should always come from the equivalent community, and special restrictions should be in place to maintain this. Each state will have its own parliament and laws as long as they do not contradict with the central government laws and the laws of EU.

The central state will be above the federal states and will take care of things that involve the island as a whole (economy, federal police, tourism etc). Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio. Critical matters will require not only a simple majority, but also separate majorities from each state.

Democratic:
The governments of each state will be elected by its own residents. The majority of residents will come from the equivalent community.
The central government will come from all Cypriots. If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote. We can adopt a system like in the US where president and vice president are elected at the same time and require that they are from different communities.

United:
One and only citizenship, a united economy, freedom of movement, goods and services. We are all Cypriots first and above all.

----------------------------------

Some of the above can come gradually during a specified time frame. During this time we will build trust and friendship, we will restructure our educational system to reflect this, and we will build the infrastructure in the north.

[brother]

O.k i like what piratis has put down even though i have read it before.

Now expand piratis and say what you want to do with the settlers and property issue.

[turkcyp]

I completley agree with Alex on this matter. We are really cycling over and over the same issues that we have discussed, and keep on repeting the same positions.

As he said we should start talking about changes we want to certain document taking as basis (his suggestion was Annan Plan).

I could care less what is the basis. We can start from 1960 Constituion and modify it, Start with Annan Plan and modify it, or completely start with something else (like USA constituion) and modify it.

I have been doing some work on Anna plan so far for a while about the specific changes I want in Plan. Point by point.

Annan Plan though is very complicated. If you choose to take another document as basis like 1960 agreements and constituion. WE can do that as well.

On he other hand. Piratis post is more like guidelines in what he wants to see in a solution. When he writes down like this everybody accepts with that statement. Let’s start filling the blanks, and the real quarrel starts. So instead of taking his post an dtry to build something from it, let’s take something already done as basis and try to change it.

Take care,

p.s. This what I had tried to do with teh thread Annan plan vs. 1960 Constituion. I had asked what kind of changes people like in those documents, but apart from Alex nobody showed any real interest in it. http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=909

[Piratis]

On he other hand. Piratis post is more like guidelines in what he wants to see in a solution. When he writes down like this everybody accepts with that statement.

So do you agree with the principles?

The main differences of what I propose and A plan are:
1) Real federation were the central state is above the component states.
2) TCs to have blocking power on critical matters, but not in everything.

Do you accept these two principles?

I could care less what is the basis. We can start from 1960 Constitution and modify it, Start with Annan Plan and modify it, or completely start with something else (like USA constitution) and modify it.

I would suggest to start with something that we all consider more or less fair, the USA constitution, and then modify it.
The USA Federal system is tested and it has a certain balance that works.
If we have to disturb this balance by changing one thing, then we will have to add something on the other side of the scale to bring this balance back.

[turkcyp]

So do you agree with the principles?

The main differences of what I propose and A plan are:
1) Real federation were the central state is above the component states.
2) TCs to have blocking power on critical matters, but not in everything.

Do you accept these two principles?

What is the definition of a real federation? What is your definition of power of central goverment> Start filling the gaps here. Do not say something as vague as this, and start writing down points.

Let me be frank, your definition of strong central goverment and my definiotion is very different. Your definition of whatis critical matter for TCs and my definition is wuite different.

Write down specifics.

I would suggest to start with something that we all consider more or less fair, the USA constitution, and then modify it.
The USA Federal system is tested and it has a certain balance that works.
If we have to disturb this balance by changing one thing, then we will have to add something on the other side of the scale to bring this balance back.

I am all for that as well. As I have told you start talking about specifics, of how you want to change USA constituion? Point by point.

Here you go. You go first.

http://www.usconstitution.net/

[Piratis]

The Preamble
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Modified:

The Preamble
We the People of the United Cyprus, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United Cyprus.

Agreed so far?

[turkcyp]

Modified:

The Preamble
We the, Greek and Turkish People of the United States of Cyprus, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of Cyprus.

How about this?

[turkcyp]

And Piratis,

And let's continue this discussion on another threat. Because I think we are violating,

- The discussion will use the Annan Plan as a reference point.[/b] This does not mean "submitting to the Annan Plan", by no means, but all our suggestions should (if possible) start with "the Annan Plan is like this but we should change it to something like this". The reason for this is that our Plan will be taken more seriously by leaders if it is seen as a revision of the Annan Plan. If someone takes up the role of copy/pasting relevant segments of the Annan Plan whenever needed, so that we can see how to amend them, it would be most useful.

.

And I would like to discuss point by point changes to Annan Plan in this topic.

How about this threat that I have opened a while ago,
US type Federal System in Cyprus: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=704.

Continue from there, if you don’t mind.

[magikthrill]

Alexandre, I am really sorry If you consider this out of topic because I haven't read the entire Annan plan but here is what I have to say:

Property Issues:
ALL refuguess, from both sides, MUST have the right to return their property. If they choose not to return they must be fully compensated. The compensation for the GCs should come from Turkey and the compensaiton for the TCs should come from the GC state.

Constitution:
Firstly, I do not agree with turkcyp on the constiution saying We the Greek and Turkish people of... It is time everybody is called a Cypriot in a UNITED Cyprus. The words Greek and Turkish should only be used as adjectives when describing objects (states, schools, property etc) at least int he constiution.

Secondly, this constitution should not be soemthign that can be interpreted in many ways (as is the US constitution). It should be something rigid and strong that can last w/out the necessity of many amendments.

Settlers:
Personally, I believe all settlers must go - to be compensated by Turkey for property in their own country. However as a compromise I think it wouldn't be bad to allow settlers based on two things:
1) their total number
2) the year that they arrived in Cyprus

That's all I have so far.