Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Basically, Turkey likes to take a very long term view in its foreign policy. Turkey knows that Greece or Cyprus can never be a serious threat, because they are just not powerful enough.

Did you take it into consideration that they are EU members and if Turkey cannot be a member of EU(highly possible) what would their stance be against Turkey?

Ps: Now I must go shopping. I'll comment upon the rest of your post when I'm back.

[-mikkie2-]

Interesting!

What is obvious is that the Annan plan cemented the British military bases for good. They even got sea shelf rights.

As Cypriots are we happy about this? These provisions of the plan were not openly discussed and if we voted yes, as the people of Cyprus, we would have signed away the base areas for good.

Cyprus has tried to become a member of Nato. That would be the natural way to protect western interests in Cyprus whilst handing back sovereignty of the base areas to the Cyprus government in the future.

What is stopping this? Turkey vetoing Cyprus whenever it tries to join an international organisation!

[insan]

And who can tell, who will be an enemy of Turkey in 30 or 50 years time? Having Britain just 50 miles to the south of the Turkish Coast, is therefore a potential threat.

There are strongly possible ones besides weakly possibles. What would make Britain to consider Turkey an enemy instead of a strong ally? Ain't it more rational for Britain to improve her alliance with turkey in order to ensure her interests in the region? Why and how could Britain defy Turkey from her bases in Cyprus? With long ranged nuclear missiles or air strikes?

So, from the information I have been given, one of the reasons that Turkey so much resists the prospect of total demilitarization of Cyprus, is because the British bases would still remain - and therefore the balance of power in the region would be tilted in favor of Britain.

According to the "new world order" plan; demilitarization of the world(Not only Cyprus) would be achieved at the end of the second phase of "new world order" movement. According to the plan; at the end of the "new world order" movement, the world government would have been established under the leadership of US. The only military power of world would be US, in order to keep the world peace. In my opinion, In our region, Turkey has been given the primiry military and political role by the current, dominant political powers of the world. The problem is that there are so many countries and strong anti-Turkish political groups which are partly or completely against the role and share given to Turkey in the "new world order" plan.

For those of you who don't mind having Cyprus used in all these ways "so long as it is done in a peaceful way", just consider: If a regional war involving Britain were to erupt in the future (or even, God forbid, a world war), Cyprus would be one of the primary military targets.

I have no doubt about this.

[magikthrill]

here is another random proposal...

what if, aside from two constituent states, there was an area (Either another state but maybe better a city or area of cities) where the population has no restrictions. TCs and GCs can live together as much as they want.


This third entity can appoint representatives in the legislative branch but not in the judicial or executive.

just a though. i can see how it could be too much for both TCs and GCs but wondering what people think?

[Alexandros Lordos]

here is another random proposal...

what if, aside from two constituent states, there was an area (Either another state but maybe better a city or area of cities) where the population has no restrictions. TCs and GCs can live together as much as they want.


This third entity can appoint representatives in the legislative branch but not in the judicial or executive.

just a though. i can see how it could be too much for both TCs and GCs but wondering what people think?

Magikthrill, what you are suggesting is actually being seriously proposed by some constitutional experts - to create, as it were, a "tri-zonal Federation", with the Federal zone operating as a "pure European solution" (i.e. no racial distinctions, simple democracy), and the other two zones operating in the "classical" way, with GC majority in the south and TC majority in the north.

In fact, the GC side has always been suggesting this at the negotiating table, but Denktash never wanted to hear about it.

I think it would be a great idea, the Federal zone could become a "melting pot" wherein a new Cypriot identity would be forged. However, it needs care in practice, to ensure that TCs do not see it as "Political Domination in disguise". One appoach might be to start with a very small Federal zone - the part of Nicosia that will surround the Federal Government buildings, and ideally an area which has 50/50 population split between GCs and TCs - and, if the experiment works, it can be expanded by consensus.

[erolz]

In fact, the GC side has always been suggesting this at the negotiating table, but Denktash never wanted to hear about it.

Well try it on Talat then - that is if we ever get to the stage where TP is prepared to talk with Talat and accept him as the TC communites representative.

[cannedmoose]

I think it would be a great idea, the Federal zone could become a "melting pot" wherein a new Cypriot identity would be forged. However, it needs care in practice, to ensure that TCs do not see it as "Political Domination in disguise". One appoach might be to start with a very small Federal zone - the part of Nicosia that will surround the Federal Government buildings, and ideally an area which has 50/50 population split between GCs and TCs - and, if the experiment works, it can be expanded by consensus.

I also think it's a fantastic concept and would be a very good testing ground for a solution and the mechanics of co-operation. If I'm correct, the federal solution in Belgium functions on a similar basis, with Brussels as a federal zone and the two constituent states (Wallonia and Flanders) essentially responsible for running themselves.

Alexandros, do you know why this isn't being floated to Talat directly, rather than filtered through Denktash. Also, do you have any evidence or statements by GC officials stating this? I can see this being popular in many quarters, a GC initiative suggesting this as a first step towards a wider solution would help to deflect international criticism, would wrong-foot the Turkish leadership and I'm sure this would be considered by Talat. Perhaps it's something that will have to wait until the 'Presidential' (quotes for the benefit of certain folk) elections in April.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Hey Cannedmoose! How are you doing?

Alexandros, do you know why this isn't being floated to Talat directly, rather than filtered through Denktash.

Well, Talat wasn't negotiator yet when it was being discussed. I am sure Talat will be a far more constructive interlocutor, once the two sides start talking ...

Also, do you have any evidence or statements by GC officials stating this?

I don't have written evidence, just anectodal evidence by GC officials and politicians I have talked to: It was certainly brought up in negotations, but Denktash wasn't even willing to consider that the area of old Nicosia airport, where the Federal Government would be housed, should be a Federal zone.

I can see this being popular in many quarters, a GC initiative suggesting this as a first step towards a wider solution would help to deflect international criticism..

Well, actually I think that the GC side is currently between "the devil and the deep blue sea" when it comes to suggesting improvements. If the GC side DOESN'T say what it wants, it will be accused of intransigence and of not really wanting a solution. If it DOES say what it wants, and mentions things like a Federal zone, then it will be accused of not accepting the Annan Plan philosophy and of wanting changes that are "too extensive".

Perhaps it's something that will have to wait until the 'Presidential' (quotes for the benefit of certain folk) elections in April.

Yes, certainly it will have to wait, because if the GC side dares to say what it wants now, before the TC elections, then its suggestions will be decimated by most TC politicians, who will be striving to out-race each other in denouncing GC "intransigence" in order to gain the support of right-wing voters.

After April, we will all be in a frame of mind that is more conducive to serious negotiation.

[cannedmoose]

Hey Cannedmoose! How are you doing?

Hi Alex, I'm very well thanks! Ti kanete re?

Well, Talat wasn't negotiator yet when it was being discussed. I am sure Talat will be a far more constructive interlocutor, once the two sides start talking ...

Whenever that happens, I'm worried that with T-Paps current stance, it'll take a while. He seems to be paralysed with apprehension about going in one direction or another at the moment.

I don't have written evidence, just anectodal evidence by GC officials and politicians I have talked to: It was certainly brought up in negotations, but Denktash wasn't even willing to consider that the area of old Nicosia airport, where the Federal Government would be housed, should be a Federal zone.

With Rauf out of the frame after April (well... anything's possible... so that's a theoretical point), are your sources still suggesting that this remains on the table. Personally, I think it's a fantastic suggestion.

Well, actually I think that the GC side is currently between "the devil and the deep blue sea" when it comes to suggesting improvements. If the GC side DOESN'T say what it wants, it will be accused of intransigence and of not really wanting a solution. If it DOES say what it wants, and mentions things like a Federal zone, then it will be accused of not accepting the Annan Plan philosophy and of wanting changes that are "too extensive".

Very true, a good point. I sympathise with TPap in that there is a certain intransigence being displayed by the international community on the Annan Plan V as a final package. Then again, I guess their rationale is that not sticking to their guns on AP(V) would mean a whole new round of negotiations on every single point. My suggestion to TPap would be to float a couple of his objections and provide a concrete and workable suggestion as to an alternative. If he did this straight to Talat and there was an agreement, I don't see how the international community could object. Although, that would mean TPap breaking down the wall he's built between himself and Talat... still, miracles do happen.

Yes, certainly it will have to wait, because if the GC side dares to say what it wants now, before the TC elections, then its suggestions will be decimated by most TC politicians, who will be striving to out-race each other in denouncing GC "intransigence" in order to gain the support of right-wing voters. After April, we will all be in a frame of mind that is more conducive to serious negotiation.

Agreed, once again the Cyprus problem becomes a hostage to a set of elections... it's just like Groundhog Day.