Cyprus-Forum.com

[Saint Jimmy]

My suggestion is to just take out the entire provision for foreign troops remaining in Cyprus, symbolic or not. Does anyone see why any number of Greek or Turkish troops should remain??

[brother]

I think settlers who arrived in 1974 and after upto 1990 should be allowed to stay but turkey must build them alternative homes so lands and properties not belonging to them can be returned.

Those after 1990 unless through marriage must be compensated to leave by turkey or given the opportunity to apply for staying through the official immigration service where it will be taken into account how long they have been there, their job etc.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I think settlers who arrived in 1974 and after upto 1990 should be allowed to stay but turkey must build them alternative homes so lands and properties not belonging to them can be returned.

Those after 1990 unless through marriage must be compensated to leave by turkey or given the opportunity to apply for staying through the official immigration service where it will be taken into account how long they have been there, their job etc.

I agree absolutely ...

[Alexandros Lordos]

My suggestion is to just take out the entire provision for foreign troops remaining in Cyprus, symbolic or not. Does anyone see why any number of Greek or Turkish troops should remain??

Hmm, I'd love to see this happen, but I don't think the TCs are ready to accept this yet. We'll have to find another way round this problem.

[Alexandros Lordos]

The main differences of what I propose and A plan are:
1) Real federation were the central state is above the component states.

Piratis,

as turkcyp has already suggested, could you flesh this out into a concrete critique of the Annan Plan on the issue of "federalization" and a specific suggestion for alternative arrangements?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alexandre, I am really sorry If you consider this out of topic because I haven't read the entire Annan plan but here is what I have to say:

You are not out of topic ...

Property Issues:
ALL refuguess, from both sides, MUST have the right to return their property. If they choose not to return they must be fully compensated. The compensation for the GCs should come from Turkey and the compensaiton for the TCs should come from the GC state..

Magikthrill, I think the issue is tricky here ... while we respect the rights of refugees, we should also respect the social integrity of the TC community. I am against insisting, for instance, that TC refugees should be obliged to abandon their current residences and return to ... Paphos. Also, the issue of significantly improved properties is a problem, because if a TC has built his home on GC land, or his business on GC land, are you going to kick him out, so that you get your "horafi" back? I am all for putting the GCs higher up in the priority order, but I don't think they should be right at the top.

They should certainly be higher up, though, than foreigners and settlers. And there shouldn't be a one-third quota on the total property they can claim.

Constitution:
Firstly, I do not agree with turkcyp on the constiution saying We the Greek and Turkish people of... It is time everybody is called a Cypriot in a UNITED Cyprus. The words Greek and Turkish should only be used as adjectives when describing objects (states, schools, property etc) at least int he constiution..

Hmm ... to me, neither quite seems to do it. If we over-focus on Cypriot-ness, we blur the bicommunality that is integral to the spirit of the solution. If we over-focus on Greek-ness and Turkish-ness, we run the risk of emphasising that which separates us.

I would suggest a totally different approach, a pre-amble in which a mutually acceptable recounting of our past will be narrated ...

Secondly, this constitution should not be soemthign that can be interpreted in many ways (as is the US constitution). It should be something rigid and strong that can last w/out the necessity of many amendments..

Yes, absolutely!

Settlers:
Personally, I believe all settlers must go - to be compensated by Turkey for property in their own country. However as a compromise I think it wouldn't be bad to allow settlers based on two things:
1) their total number
2) the year that they arrived in Cyprus

To me the question is not so much whether the settlers will stay or leave, but rather on whose property they will stay, and who will pay for their relocation costs if they have to abandon current residences. If Turkey is at least made to pay for their relocation, then that will, in my eyes, be adequate punishment for the crime of settling an occupied territory. But to throw them all out would be violating their individual human rights ...

That's all I have so far.

We look forward to hear more ...

[magikthrill]

Magikthrill, I think the issue is tricky here ... while we respect the rights of refugees, we should also respect the social integrity of the TC community. I am against insisting, for instance, that TC refugees should be obliged to abandon their current residences and return to ... Paphos. Also, the issue of significantly improved properties is a problem, because if a TC has built his home on GC land, or his business on GC land, are you going to kick him out, so that you get your "horafi" back? I am all for putting the GCs higher up in the priority order, but I don't think they should be right at the top.

Alexandre,

Here's what I have to say about the issue of refugees:

1) ALL must be given the option to return to their original homes. YOu do know that many of these will not take this option though. It is only fair though if it is provided to everyone, otherwise a soltuion will never be achieved and you know this, no?

2) Whether the settler or even TC has built a business, a casino or a whorehouse on my grandfather's "horafi" I don't care. It never belonged to this person in the first place.

In conclusion, I am not putting anyone up for high order. I think the only way a solution can be achieved is by respecting everyone's rights. Not allowing people to return to their homes is not only a violation of human rights, its disrespecting them.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Magikthrill,

I think we really must try to see the other side's point of view on this issue as well, only then will our solution bear the hallmark of true justice.

Refugees could and should be given alternative houses - brand new houses - in the same towns and villages, if it is not possible to get their original home back. That is as far as I would personally demand ...

Now, as to what the people would be willing to accept, personally I am not sure ... maybe the majority thinks like you, maybe the majority thinks like me. I have no evidence yet either way.

It is similar with the issue of the Settlers. Some take an absolute stand, others take a moderated stand. Again, I am not sure what the stand of the majority is.

I'd be glad to hear your reactions ...

[magikthrill]

Alexandre,

You are right. We can't be too sure what most GCs think. Of course you are a GC and I am not, so maybe you have a better understanding. My opinion is based on the GCs that I interact with (both locals and those abroad) as well as the results from the Annan referendum.

Here's how I see the situation to be.

There was a history of violence. I'm sure during the TUrksih occupation (when all Turks were Ottomans) there was violence, rape etc on the part of the Ottomans. Then the GCs decide to rebel as did many parts of the former Ottoman empire. These GCs commited acts of murder, rape and many other crimes as well. Then Turkey came in, commited its part of murder rape etc and on top of that decided to conquer a portion of the island.

THis is a circle of violence. It's wrong and horrible. So by accepting a solution the GCs are the ones stopping this cycle of violence. They do not demand that the TCs be punished for their actions but want to end any uncessacry violence (like modern Europeans) and unite their country once again.

Therefore, this is why I believe that GCs should be entitled to at least this minimum. Before I came to the forum I thought many things that I do not think now. For example I didnt think any settlers should be allowed to stay. I did not think power sharing of any form should be allowed and I thought that all refugees MUST have the right to return.

Today, by reading and understanding intelligent people's posts I have changed my mind on most things and can udnertsand a compromise on all these factors.

But not the refugee issue. That should not be compromised.

In fact I feel that if refugees are offered the right to return from the TC side they will feel more comfortable in compromising in other issues. However, as you have said we can't know about this.

SOrry if that was too long but I felt the necessity to describe what I thought.

[brother]

What you are suggesting when you say all settlers should go after 30 years on the island that would summount to a form of soft ethnic cleansing.