Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

... Yes I do realise, that not everyone will return to their properties, but they should not be forced to lose them either. When the time comes, and you want to buy Mr. and Mrs. Nikolos's land, and they are willing to sell, then pay them out of your own pocket at the market rate, as any civilized nation, then you may enjoy your life, quilt free.

Sure! Just like Mr and Mrs Ahmed and every son daughter, brother, sister buried in a mass grave, and their whole village with thousands of donums was left without a legal owner, because no living relatives were left behind. EOKA simply knocked at their door and asked "will you be kind enough to sell your home to us for the right price?".

Without realising Cyprus problem did not start in 1974 but a decade before, and Greek Cypriots were not the only ones who lost homes, land and lives - you've realised nothing. You are evaluating the whole issue from the GC perspective only as if you are the only one who was hard done by.

Perhaps if I heard more consolatory remarks from the TC's towards a settlement and respect of Human Rights and Democratic values for all Cypriots, then you can rest assure, I will not be talking as much.

Your idea of human rights and democratic values are, those for the TCs only - I do not believe in your sincerety when you claim you want democratic rights or human rights for the TCs. Neither do any of the TCs, so dream on... The truth is ENOSIS is still very much alive and favoured bu many in the South (albeit not by the majority), EOKA-B is a reality, so are some nationalist/racist fanatics we witness in this forum regularly, and most importantly Greek Orthodox Church still believes a good Turk is a dead Turk.

If and whan these values change, come and talk to us about democracy and human rights - we might even take you seriously!

I rarely brush aside posts like this but this time I cannot resist to state the obvious about the above post...

Stupidity at its worst kind!!!
Enosis very much alive?
Eoka-B still a reality?
Violation of human rights in the past justifies human rights violation for the future?

Where have you seen all these written mate? Are you stoned or something?

You are thick as two planks left to rot on a beach.
You are nothing but another togue twisting, manupilating, denying, lying GC who is driving me to become more and more of a Turkish nationalist than a Cypriot socialist I once used to be!

WHO CLAIMED "Violation of human rights in the past justifies human rights violation for the future?"??? What was you on when you wrote the above?

The abusive replies I get all the time (to which I will always reply in kind) are nothing but objection of a hurt "Greek" inside you rather than a Cypriot! It just goes on to prove that we should always be living in separate areas of Cyprus because you are all playacting and cannot be trusted. Enossis is of course still not alive! From this years and every years Eurovision song contest CYPRU votes = 12 points to Greece!

[Viewpoint]

You seem to be on the same strategy as Miltiades. Why do you accept the problems that go along with the "RoC" and then try to tempt us into it.I understand your frustration on the matter but you are doing nothing but harm by doing both the above. Why can't you fight for the wrongs to be put right first and then go for the unification. It confuses me and I am sure, by the responses you are getting from nearly all the TCs, that it confuses all of them also. We don't want to have the indignity of having to fight those wrongs from the inside or after the fact. We need them sorted out first but the "RoC" does not show any will to help us to do so. I am sorry but as I have said to Miltiades again and again, you are trying to sell us double glazing with no glass in the windows promising that you will sort the problem out after we have paid over our money. That is not the way to do business and it stinks to high heaven.

I am just sick and tired of hearing the same old excuses,Zan.
Yes,terrible things did happen between the two communities starting from early 50s and probably earlier,and I know and understand the fear factor for the TCs,but the times have changed,mate...How long are you guys going to hang on to old fear,loathing and bitterness.And when are you going to acknowledge that your fear and bittterness and prejudices (plural you!) are being exploited by many outside powers,including Turkey,to keep us divided and ruled...I know we did discuss the issue of Turkey not being able to land soldiers again as easiliy once they are pulled out,and I remember agreen with you on that...But these days you don't have to invade a country to enforce your will on them should need be...Remember Kosovo and the NATO bombing of Serbia??? When are you guys going to acknowledge that a lot of opportunistic and undeserving,and criminal elements,are taking advantage of the present situation to fill their pockets at the expense of the TC and GC refugees...
As long as you guys do not give an inch on the propaganda stakes,the GC side will not come to the party...And as one other GC poster stated elsewhere (DT I think), to insist that GCs still want Enosis in this day and age when the RoC is effectively united with Greece via the EU,is laughable. It stinks to high heavens as a convenient excuse to maintain the status quo...The same goes for the EOKA.They are nowhere to be found,mate,and you guys know it...That is all in the past.I know there is a lot to be done from the GC side (to educate the youth of Cyprus on the true history of the conflict,plus perhaps measures to curb the negative influence of the Church in the South),but you need to undertand the political restraints placed on the GC government under the present circumstances.No government or politician will survive in the Republic if they are seen to make too many concessions to Turkey...This is essentially a conflict between Turkey and the RoC,whether we like it or not...Come on,use some of that considerable intelligence of yours to empathise with our GC compatriots...Not to justify with lame excuses the continuation of the status quo which is doing nothing to advance anybodies cause.Except the cause of the unthinking Turkish nationalists and war profiteers...

Bir all of what you say is very pretty but there is a big difference between empathy and surrender. Tcs are not stupis they will not just give up the TRNC and return to the "RoC" hoping to be treated as an equal. We have to see that what we undertake will be better than what we have today and even with all its faults the TCs are opting for the TRNC, that must tell you something. I could up sticks and move south to the promsied land you promote no end but I and many other TCs do not want to live in a GC state, where we will feel like foreigners and where will have to no say in our future. Therefore a roap map and safeguards are required and the "RoC" in its current form is clearly not enough, anything close to what we require to make that leap of faith the GCs will only resoundingly reject. So why not ask and argue the fact that the GCs want us to capitulate under their numerical majoirty and what they propose to do about addressing our concerns, you never seem to argue in favor of the TCs viewpoint why is that?

[MR-from-NG]

You seem to be on the same strategy as Miltiades. Why do you accept the problems that go along with the "RoC" and then try to tempt us into it.I understand your frustration on the matter but you are doing nothing but harm by doing both the above. Why can't you fight for the wrongs to be put right first and then go for the unification. It confuses me and I am sure, by the responses you are getting from nearly all the TCs, that it confuses all of them also. We don't want to have the indignity of having to fight those wrongs from the inside or after the fact. We need them sorted out first but the "RoC" does not show any will to help us to do so. I am sorry but as I have said to Miltiades again and again, you are trying to sell us double glazing with no glass in the windows promising that you will sort the problem out after we have paid over our money. That is not the way to do business and it stinks to high heaven.

I am just sick and tired of hearing the same old excuses,Zan.
Yes,terrible things did happen between the two communities starting from early 50s and probably earlier,and I know and understand the fear factor for the TCs,but the times have changed,mate...How long are you guys going to hang on to old fear,loathing and bitterness.And when are you going to acknowledge that your fear and bittterness and prejudices (plural you!) are being exploited by many outside powers,including Turkey,to keep us divided and ruled...I know we did discuss the issue of Turkey not being able to land soldiers again as easiliy once they are pulled out,and I remember agreen with you on that...But these days you don't have to invade a country to enforce your will on them should need be...Remember Kosovo and the NATO bombing of Serbia??? When are you guys going to acknowledge that a lot of opportunistic and undeserving,and criminal elements,are taking advantage of the present situation to fill their pockets at the expense of the TC and GC refugees...
As long as you guys do not give an inch on the propaganda stakes,the GC side will not come to the party...And as one other GC poster stated elsewhere (DT I think), to insist that GCs still want Enosis in this day and age when the RoC is effectively united with Greece via the EU,is laughable. It stinks to high heavens as a convenient excuse to maintain the status quo...The same goes for the EOKA.They are nowhere to be found,mate,and you guys know it...That is all in the past.I know there is a lot to be done from the GC side (to educate the youth of Cyprus on the true history of the conflict,plus perhaps measures to curb the negative influence of the Church in the South),but you need to undertand the political restraints placed on the GC government under the present circumstances.No government or politician will survive in the Republic if they are seen to make too many concessions to Turkey...This is essentially a conflict between Turkey and the RoC,whether we like it or not...Come on,use some of that considerable intelligence of yours to empathise with our GC compatriots...Not to justify with lame excuses the continuation of the status quo which is doing nothing to advance anybodies cause.Except the cause of the unthinking Turkish nationalists and war profiteers...

Bir all of what you say is very pretty but there is a big difference between empathy and surrender. Tcs are not stupis they will not just give up the TRNC and return to the "RoC" hoping to be treated as an equal. We have to see that what we undertake will be better than what we have today and even with all its faults the TCs are opting for the TRNC, that must tell you something. I could up sticks and move south to the promsied land you promote no end but I and many other TCs do not want to live in a GC state, where we will feel like foreigners and where will have to no say in our future. Therefore a roap map and safeguards are required and the "RoC" in its current form is clearly not enough, anything close to what we require to make that leap of faith the GCs will only resoundingly reject. So why not ask and argue the fact that the GCs want us to capitulate under their numerical majoirty and what they propose to do about addressing our concerns, you never seem to argue in favor of the TCs viewpoint why is that?

VPs comments are true for at least 95% of TCs, how does this make VP the propagandist and partitionist that all you guys have branded him with.

Well said my friend. I subscribe to everything you say.

[askimwos]

Bir all of what you say is very pretty but there is a big difference between empathy and surrender. Tcs are not stupis they will not just give up the TRNC and return to the "RoC" hoping to be treated as an equal. We have to see that what we undertake will be better than what we have today and even with all its faults the TCs are opting for the TRNC, that must tell you something. I could up sticks and move south to the promsied land you promote no end but I and many other TCs do not want to live in a GC state, where we will feel like foreigners and where will have to no say in our future. Therefore a roap map and safeguards are required and the "RoC" in its current form is clearly not enough, anything close to what we require to make that leap of faith the GCs will only resoundingly reject. So why not ask and argue the fact that the GCs want us to capitulate under their numerical majoirty and what they propose to do about addressing our concerns, you never seem to argue in favor of the TCs viewpoint why is that?

VP will you ever stop pretending that the alternative put on the table for TCs is the RoC?
We have discussed this many times in the past and the majority of the GC members of the forum spoke of a BBF where there will be political equality. However, when people suggested what changes needed to be done on the annan plan (if we choose to take this as a starting point) you simply rejected the majority of them.
So stop pretending that GCs want you to capitulate as you say. GCs want an honorouble compromise which will benefir first and foremost the Cypriots and not the "motherlands".

[denizaksulu]

All that the negative responses from the GC and some TCs do is entrench the TCs' position to adhere to a divided state. Nobody can force this "marriage". Neither loves the other. Whats the point. That was not a question. We are all agreeing to disagree
Can we be constructive, or more important, do we want to be constructive? One thing is for sure; no TC will live under GC domination and accept minority status. Whether we are in Eu (eventually) or not the GCs will stop at nothing.

[askimwos]

WHO CLAIMED "Violation of human rights in the past justifies human rights violation for the future?"??? What was you on when you wrote the above?

Here is waht you wrote..

... Yes I do realise, that not everyone will return to their properties, but they should not be forced to lose them either. When the time comes, and you want to buy Mr. and Mrs. Nikolos's land, and they are willing to sell, then pay them out of your own pocket at the market rate, as any civilized nation, then you may enjoy your life, quilt free.

Sure! Just like Mr and Mrs Ahmed and every son daughter, brother, sister buried in a mass grave, and their whole village with thousands of donums was left without a legal owner, because no living relatives were left behind. EOKA simply knocked at their door and asked "will you be kind enough to sell your home to us for the right price?".

Now if this is not an attempt to justify the violation of the human rights of GC refugees who had nothing to do with the violation of the human rights of the Ahmed family you are either a liar or a 120 year old with alcheimer.

[denizaksulu]

askimwos writes[GCs want an honorouble compromise which will benefir first and foremost the Cypriots and not the "motherlands".]
That I doubt. the only honourable compromise the GCs want is for the benefit of themselves. Have they discussed and agreed on the compromises with the TCs? They cant even sit at a table together. You cannot have a one sided compromise.[/quote]

[Get Real!]

askimwos writes[GCs want an honorouble compromise which will benefir first and foremost the Cypriots and not the "motherlands".]
That I doubt. the only honourable compromise the GCs want is for the benefit of themselves. Have they discussed and agreed on the compromises with the TCs? They cant even sit at a table together. You cannot have a one sided compromise.

Maybe I should warn that if you get sandwiched between the (VP+Zan) Vs (Kik+Bir) wars you run the risk of requiring a lobotomy within a month.

[Viewpoint]

Bir all of what you say is very pretty but there is a big difference between empathy and surrender. Tcs are not stupis they will not just give up the TRNC and return to the "RoC" hoping to be treated as an equal. We have to see that what we undertake will be better than what we have today and even with all its faults the TCs are opting for the TRNC, that must tell you something. I could up sticks and move south to the promsied land you promote no end but I and many other TCs do not want to live in a GC state, where we will feel like foreigners and where will have to no say in our future. Therefore a roap map and safeguards are required and the "RoC" in its current form is clearly not enough, anything close to what we require to make that leap of faith the GCs will only resoundingly reject. So why not ask and argue the fact that the GCs want us to capitulate under their numerical majoirty and what they propose to do about addressing our concerns, you never seem to argue in favor of the TCs viewpoint why is that?

VP will you ever stop pretending that the alternative put on the table for TCs is the RoC?
We have discussed this many times in the past and the majority of the GC members of the forum spoke of a BBF where there will be political equality. However, when people suggested what changes needed to be done on the annan plan (if we choose to take this as a starting point) you simply rejected the majority of them.
So stop pretending that GCs want you to capitulate as you say. GCs want an honorouble compromise which will benefir first and foremost the Cypriots and not the "motherlands".

You obviously do not know your community well, the only honourable solution they will even contemplate is one where we are reduced to a minority status with not even the rights in the 1960 agreements which your fellow GCs have stated quite clearly were to much in favor of the TCs, along way from your claim that political equality is on the table. Your leadership cannot go anywhere near the AP as a basis of a solution because they have demonized it far to much to lick up their own spit and another OHI woudl be there down fall and a fast track to permanent partition. You should take a step back and question your own sides lack of intiatives since the referendum, you should realise that they to are not interested in a solution as making concessions where TCs would be brought into the political balance as god forbid as equals after having monopolized Cyprus for so long would be their downfall. Why share something when you can have it all? keep the TC isolated and feed the refugees lies of returning, you really do not know your own leadership look beyond what they feed you.

[denizaksulu]

Thanks for the warning GR. I gathered that I will let the heavy weights bang their heads together and see who wins. I will back the "loser".