Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

All I have to say is you guys are so blinded by nationalism that you have difficulty accepting even the slightest truth that is against GC side or Greece.

And mikkie, yes you're giving excuses, not just in this incident but every other incident involving GC side or Greece. Whenever we talk about Turks in Thrace, you say "But minorities in Turkey..blah blah". Whenever we talk about a Turkish soldier being shot at, you say "But Turkey has 40.000 soldiers in Cyprus, blah blah", whenever we talk about the TC who was denied to get his property back in the south, you say "But there are 200.000 GC refugees, blah blah".

You don't have the guts to stand up and say "Yes this is wrong" without giving excuses. All you can do is blame Turkey for all your misfortunes.

[-mikkie2-]

That is a very cheap jibe!

Things are happening today in Turkey and Cyprus and hardly ANY TC's have the guts to admit wrongdoing.

The cynical ploy of the Turks regarding the fate of the missing is a case in point.

Regarding the Turks of Thrace, well they are thriving! Even Erdogan when he visited last year said that they are part of Greece and are Greek citizens and that they are part of the Greek nation. Anything wrong in that?

As I said, the issues in Greece are down to interpretations stemming from a traety that everyone seems to use when its suits them and nothing more. If the Turks of Thrace wish to pursue this then, as I said, good luck to them.

At the end of the day, the numbers of the two respective communities speak far louder than words.

[Chrisswirl]

During the actions in Istanbul (Kostantinopoli) against the Greek Orthodox Christians, I am not sure if there were any repercussions against the Muslim (Turkish if you prefer) minority, but if there were, it was a bad thing and shouldn't have happened, just like the actions against Greeks and deportation (against relevant agreements) in the first place. No violence or taking away of rights is a good thing. The Muslims of Western Thrace should have rights, they should be full citizens of Greece. However, Turkey is in no place to complain until they restore the rights of the hundreds of thousands of Christians (Greeks) who should be in Istanbul right now.

I hope this is a fair summary.

[Piratis]

Metecyp,

When Turkey is acting in such an expansionistic way against us, we have to defend ourselves and take some measures.

I do not think the shooting of that soldier was a right thing to do right now, but I do not feel the need to apologize for that either. That soldier was part of the occupation force that illegally occupies a part of our country. They are the aggressors, they are the ones who should not be here in the first place and we do have the right to defend our country.

So the shooting of that invader was stupid at this moment, but not a crime.

[magikthrill]

metecyp,

i do not blindly agree with everything my country does. I have the balls to admit when they do something wrong. For example, when they handed in Otsalan although I was 15 I was there protesting in the middle of Athens with my fellow co-citizens against my country's wrongdoings.

Now to tell you the truth about the Turks in Thrace , I see them as Turks and everyone in Greece sees them as TUrks cause thats what they are. And do I thinik the government should allow them to be considered TUrks? Yes. But do I care? No, not really since there are other important issues on my country's agenda such as dealing with Turkey's violation of our air space.

In addition it is also Turkey's fault on this matter for not caring about this groups rights from the Treaty of Lausanne (or whatever the treaty was that established the group is muslim greek.

[pantelis]

Brother,

The champions of human rights show their humanity by denying people the simple right to call themselves Turkish.

If the Cypriots did not call themselves "Greek"/"Turkish" Cypriots, there wouldn't have been a Cyprus Problem.

These "innocent" groups do not come out to challenge the agreements between the two countries, without a reason.
It is standard policy of Turkish ruling elite to use such groups outside Turkey, in order to arouse the ethnic/patriotic feelings of the Turkish masses as means to divert attention from the real problems that Turkish people face, like unemployment, poverty, healthcare, corruption, etc.
The official Turkish government may not be involved directly in the encouragement of with these foreign "Turkish" related groups, but there are other ways to finance and organize them. The Turkish military are not happy with the good relations between the Greek and Turkish governments, or with Turkey’s EU “road map”. They want to have control of Turkey, they want to get the tax money form the Turkish people and into their military “expenditures”, but give nothing back to the people, except fear (maintains them in power). The Turkish Army is the biggest private corporation in Turkey, with its own money to use as it pleases. They even invest their pension funds in French banks, because they do want trust the Turkish Lira. The EU will never allow this situation to continue, when Turkey joins the Union.
Pay attention in what is going on with Turcoman in Iraq. Northern Iraqis (mainly Kurds) have voted in the general elections last Sunday, but also voted for their own separate parliament. Turkey wants assurances from the US, that there will be no split in Iraq. What do you think is going to happen when the Kurdish parliamentarians disagree with the Shiites? (The Kurds will be used by the Americans in order to counter-balance any unilateral decisions of the Arab Iraqis – same as the British used the Turkish Cypriots) The British during their Cyprus occupation used to be called us simply “Moslems” and “Christians” until they realized that their stay in Cyprus was not secure. The “Greek” and “Turkish”, part of the Cypriot people names, were cultivates and established by the British, for a reason.
If these Turkish speaking Iraqis are not called the Turcoman but Iraqi Turks, they will become more useful to Turkey's interests in Iraq in South Eastern Turkey or “South Kurdistan” for some.
This is how one day, “Shit Happens” as they say!
Do I make myself clear, dear Brother?

[Saint Jimmy]

Why do we never concern ourselves with what we/our leaders have done wrong in the past and are doing wrong now, and instead we constantly just keep reflecting and analyzing what the 'enemy' has done and does wrong?

I don't believe in this xenophobic obsession that runs amuck all the time. The Brits did what they did, and we would have done something along those lines if we were in their shoes. Kissinger did what he did, and what would we have done? The TCs ask for what they ask for, and what would we be asking for, if we were fewer than them?

Just food for thought. No pointing fingers. The point is, if we were OK back then, they would've been OK too (or vice versa). And no, Turkey would not have invaded. It's just maths: if one is OK, so is the other. That's what applies today, too. It can always be traced back to a cause, something someone did wrong.

[pantelis]

What has "worked" in the past, it could "work" again, today and in the future, unless we prevent it from happening, since the "work" part, was not to our advantage. It takes two to "tango" and two to "fight".
More food for thought!

[Saint Jimmy]

It takes two to "tango" and two to "fight".

Very true.

But your post above refers to how Turkey caused the separation of our cultural conscience in Cyprus, and how it might do the same with Kurds in Iraq (at least that's what I got, please correct me if I am missing something). This may well be true, but where is the mention of Greece's participation in all this? Turkey obviously didn't 'tango' alone and TCs obviously didn't 'fight' by themselves.

This is what I tried to say in my previous post. It's not enough to talk (and, much worse, think) about how they have been cruel or unfair or hostile to us, without considering the reverse.

[insan]

As usual, Pantwelis skips thwe "megali idea" and "Enosis Idea" which has been the official policy of Hellenic Ruling Elite for many decades long. He can even find excuses to claim that the roots of those ideas were created by Brits, US, Turkey etc. He skips the fact that Greekness and Hellenism ideals were injected to Greek speaking people of Cyprus long before the Turks did the same to the brains of Turkish speaking people of Cyprus. Thus, he skips the fact that Hellenic Ruling Elite divided the Cypriots brainfuly and soulfuly long before the Turks intervened the put a full stop to their neverending Enosis desire and imposing TCs the famous "Majority Rule".

Dear Pantelis, skipping the facts does not change the truths. I'm not trying to say that Hellenic Ruling Elite did wrong. They believe that Cyprus is a Hellen Island and should remain as a Hellen Island. They believe that TCs constitute a minority in Cyprus and have no seperate self-determination right. They believe that only the GC community which constitute the majority of Cyprus have self-determination right. These are the things that Hellenic Ruling Elite have been struggling for since mid-1800s until now. But most of them don't dare to admit this because TCs are completely against the thesis of Hellenic Rulin Elite. And all of you well know what's the solution thesis of Turkish ruling elite.